Howling:Oh dear we are in trouble

The Howling → Oh dear we are in trouble

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Ok so if the doctor doesnt die at trenzalore then why does he have a grave why does the universe as we know it exist simple the echo of clara helped the first doctor find a tardis but if the timestream never happend whats the doctor doing inside the tardis with clara

Theory: It is a fake grave.

Theory: it is still in the doctors future (an even darker episode) since the Gi referenced him being known as the valeyard (possibly meaning that when Peter capaldi regenerates he will end up at trenzalore.

Theory: Perhaps the grave is what is left of an alternate timeline User:Orangerichard56 ☎ 16:05, December 28, 2013 (UTC)

Well, The Doctor isn't actually dead yet, so he could still go on to die at Trenzalore. 87.102.91.126^{talk to me} 01:27, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

Clara wanted the time lords to "change the future". Time can be rewritten, and that's what the timelords did. His grave is now in an alternate, and presumably dead and negated, timeline, although, as 87.102.91.126 pointed out, the doctor isn't dead yet and can still have a grave there(Man, what a disaster that would be!)Afro Circus Afro Circus Afro Polka Dot Polka Dot Polka Dot Afro! 15:08, December 29, 2013 (UTC)

@ Original Poster - I think there was supposed to be some punctuation in that first paragraph somewhere…
@ Afro… - But if that "grave at Trenzalore" timeline is negated, then what about the GI and Clara going throughout the Doctor's time stream? It's possible that those events were also negated, so everything that Clara did across his timeline, all those times saving him and even pointing him to his future TARDIS, might not have happened, so what state is the Universe left in now? Unless the Time Lords, when they gave the Doctor a new set of regenerations, just said, "Forget logic, the effects of an event that never happened are still in play," because somehow they have the power to do that. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 20:20, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

@BioniclesaurKing4t2 - The Time Lords have more than enough technology to hold a paradox like that in place. Even the Doctor's outdated TARDIS could do it after being cannibalized by the Master in The Sound of Drums. Clara told them to change the future, so they would probably infer that the creation of a paradox that would arise by doing so would require preparations. Ensephylon ☎ 05:02, January 7, 2014 (UTC)

I figured that, if anyone, they did, plus I wouldn't put it past them, so that's why I suggested it. —BioniclesaurKing4t2 - "Hello, I'm the Doctor. Basically, . . . run." 00:04, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

After The Name of the Doctor, I posted somewhere in one of the topics here (I can't remember which one & am too tired & lazy to search just now) that I thought the death at Trenzalore would be overwritten -- the timeline changed -- for the out-of-universe reason that letting it stand would impede future writers, including Moffat himself, too much. Mainly, it'd make it impossible to write a credible threat to the Doctor's life that didn't involve Trenzalore, because viewers would think "Not Trenzalore, so he can't die there." As far as I can see, overwriting the death at Trenzalore was exactly what happened when the Time Lords granted the Doctor a new cycle of regenerations; he was on Trenzalore & about to die in battle & they stopped that -- incidentally giving him a nifty way to win the battle (& stuff the Daleks good & proper), in the process. --89.243.204.145^{talk to me} 23:22, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

It is interesting that for all the talk of "fixed points" in the context of the Doctor's supposed death at Lake Silencio, that phrase didn't pop up with regard to Trenzalore. And the fact that the Doctor was well into it before he knew he was on Trenzalore for The Time of The Doctor implies sometime in the future he could be again, without knowing it. And so without us knowing it.

I understand that because The Doctor didn't die on Trenzalore, there is reason to think his tomb would not be there for the GI to "discover." And so the GI would not force the Doctor to go there, to interfere with his timeline, inspiring the Impossible girl to follow to fix it. And if we just leave it there, Clara never becomes the impossible girl, & the Doctor never takes leave of River's ghost. But what would the vengeful GI do instead?

Well, Trenzalore only mattered to the GI because that WAS where the Doctor's tomb was found. If the Doctor didn't die at Trenzalore, and we assume that eventually he will die, them he might die somewhere else. And that is where the GI would have forced the Doctor to go, in order to get into his tomb, to interfere with his timestream, and inspire Clara to follow, and become the Impossible Girl. Phil Stone ☎ 15:30, March 18, 2014 (UTC)