Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Let's Kill Hitler

You are exploring the Discontinuity Index, a place where any details or rumours about unreleased stories are forbidden.
Please discuss only those whole stories which have already been released, and obey our spoiler policy.

This page is for discussing the ways in which Let's Kill Hitler doesn't fit well with other DWU narratives. You can also talk about the plot holes that render its own, internal narrative confusing.

Remember, this is a forum, so civil discussion is encouraged. However, please do not sign your posts. Also, keep all posts about the same continuity error under the same bullet point. You can add a new point by typing:

* This is point one.
::This is a counter-argument to point one.
:::This is a counter-argument to the counter-argument above
* This is point two.
::Explanation of point two.
::Further discussion and query of point two.

... and so on. 

• Why does the Doctor ask the TARDIS if he can regenerate if he is on his last life anyway?

He doesn't exactly ask about regeneration. The TARDIS says he'll be dead in 32 minutes, and he says that what it's basically saying is that he'd better regenerate. He doesn't say that he's able to, or plans to, simply points out that would be a solution. Before he says anything else (like maybe "well, too bad I already used all of my regenerations"), the TARDIS tells him regeneration is disabled.

He has tried very hard to forget his time war incarnation and he may well have forgotten it in the heat of the moment.

He may not know that 10 used two regenerations until time of the doctor.

He would know that his past incarnation had used two regenerations as it is his body and personality that changes not his memory. It is more likely that the first point about him inquiring whether or not the solution was to regenerate is correct.

I suspect that Matt Smith being the final Doctor was not thought of until a little later and thus him being the final incarnation does cause a few minor inconsistencies. The most logical solution in my mind is that he is either unaware of unsure whether he still has any regenerations left. The Meta-Crisis regeneration was always a little unclear to the fanbase. He only confirmed his suspicions during The Time of the Doctor when he grew far older than he should have done and was incapable of regenerating. This clears up any plot holes quite nicely.

• Right before The Doctor dies from the poison, he tells Melody/River to "Find River Song, and tell her something from me." Then he whispers something to River, who responds with "Well, I'm sure she knows." Did he tell her his real name? He might have realized he had to have told her his name at some point since she repeats it back to him in Forest of the Dead. In that episode, he said, "There's only one reason why I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could." So did he believe that since he was dying, this is the last chance to tell her? (Otherwise this would screw up the timeline since she would never know his name.) Or could it be something else he whispered?

The slightly embarrassed "I'm sure she knows" strongly hints that what was said was a declaration of love, or something else of similar emotional import.

• In "Day of the Moon", River regenerates. The year is 1969/70 and she is about 8 years old. In "Let's Kill Hitler", she is a childhood friend of Amy and Rory. Year is now 1990 (Approx) and she is the same age. If 20 years have passed, why didn't she age? I assume she wasn't doing and space / time travel.

I'm sure if she can regenerate like a Time Lord, she'll age like one... Remember, they don't age as quickly as humans.

Then why did she age at a normal human rate when she caught up with Amy and Rory? She wouldn't be eight years old for twenty years and then suddenly start aging.

Or perhaps she would. We don't really know how they age, exactly. Alternatively, she did pretty explicitly indicate after her regeneration here that she would be able to take her age down a little, just for fun.

• Why would Adolf Hitler, head of an organisation that belive all things other than their own is inferior, carry a British Wembly revolver, rather than a standard German Lugar?

Maybe he decided to keep a British gun as an antique.

This is not ahistorical, Hitler in real life had a Smith and Wesson revolver (which is the gun actually seen in the episode, not a Webley). Why he decided on the non-regulation firearm is anyone's guess, however. Probably personal preference.

• In point of fact, the revolver in question is a Colt Official Police revolver. It looks very similar to the S&W Model 10, but there are design differences. You can clearly see the exposed ejector rod of the Colt in screenshots; the S&W has a shroud covering the ejector rod. Very close; I thought it was a Model 10 the first time myself.

I would also point out that the Walther P-38 was made the official officer sidearm in 1938 (hence the designation "P-38"), though the P-08 Luger was used very extensively throughout the war.

Hitler on the hand, had a fondness for American revolvers. An early model S&W Ladysmith .22 caliber handgun serial #709 ended up in his possession; likely during WW1, and in the 1920's that was the only gun that Adolf carried. This is likely the gun that was used when Adolph fired a shot into the ceiling during the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. Adolf was noted for always carrying a revolver; not a pistol as was very common in Germany at the time; always a revolver.

Therefore, rather than being a discontinuity, the use of the revolver is meticulously researched and quite accurate.

• Being shot repeatedly by bullets has no apparant effect on the robot, but later, it is knocked over, by simply being punched in the head? Surely at the least the bullets would have knocked to the ground?

Though slightly more reaction to the bullet might have been expected, the difference in effect would be like that between a barn getting a cannonball shot through its wall and having a hurricaine blow it over. Bullets are most effective on beings with nervous systems and squishy, irreplacable organs.

The bullets, or at least some of them, missed and hit Melody. Maybe one or two hit the robot, or maybe none hit and the reaction was a pre-programmed "shock" reaction.

Bullets don't hit with the kind of force people think they do. They do massive damage to a fairly small area, but don't generally knock people down by sheer force - studies show that people fall down when shot, for the most part, because they think they should, not because of anything to do with the physics of the situation.

Yes, but this is an android, not a human!

• Wouldn't Rory hurt his hand when he hit the robot soldier? It was made of metal!

Was it really? I don't recall anyone saying it's actually metal on the outside. It's obviously made of some advanced flesh-imitating matter, which can also be quite soft as the real flesh is.

But bullets bounce off it without leaving any marks!

• For someone who is smart enough, to quickly disable every weapon in the room, and out think River several times, it seems abit odd that the doctor did not think, that her lipstick would be a bit dodgy, especially since this plot device has been used for over sixty years, and he already knows that River uses dodgy lipstick.

He probably was too busy at the time and didn't notice.

He was too busy flirting and showing off.

• Would they really build robots who don't recognise their masters?

They were designed to kill unauthorised people. This would stop people from entering areas they weren't allowed in. Or, for killing people who have been abducted.

Visual recognition isn't good enough. The Teselecta itself is proof they're familiar with technology that allows one to imitate the appearance of another.

• It looks like River has now become 'good' after realising she is important to the doctor. so when exactly does she kill the doctor, or is it not river who kills him?

Just because, you can over come brainwashing, it doesn't mean its gone, her desires to kill him, may resurface at a later date.

Especially since it's pretty clear that she's at least a little crazy, and the Silence are still out there to manipulate her whenever she's separated from him, and even before all this we saw how inconsistent she could be.

She may have killed him at some point in her past.

Given that the "Doctor's death" is a Fixed point in time (pardon, suddenly I don't remember who said that), doesn't that definition mean that if River doesn't kill him then someone else will (at that exact time)? In any event, what we saw was a slow moving Astronaut: not very much like River (but perhaps she was having a hard time moving, or was a younger earlier regeneration of herself, or someone else that everyone assumes was River) and that River shot at herself TV: The Impossible Astronaut (What did she say then, "It figures?"... She figured that she'd really have no control over the events after all she's done to stop them?).

That's a lot of separate points in one paragraph, but just taking the last one: If she'd done everything she could to stop the events, and still ended up killing the Doctor, then yes, that would probably finally convince her that she had no control over the events, which would explain the "it figures" line.

After the events of "Let's Kill Hitler" River worked as an archeologist, The Silence came to kidnap her and put her in the astronaut suit, where she can't control her body, only her voice, that's why she "kills" the doctor later

• When the pilot evacuates the robot, why aren't Rory and Amy beamed up too?

They are not staff?

They are wearing the bracelets!

• The same 2011 time zone as the Miracle was featured briefly in this episode (Torchwood: Miracle Day). This means that Amy and Rory were in Leadworth during their summer vacation from the TARDIS while the Miracle was happening, meaning that part of the episode was in sync with Miracle Day. It is highly likely that from the perspective of the Doctor Who universe, The Doctor was informed about such events by Amy and Rory and The Doctor most likely reassured them that the Miracle would not be permanent, otherwise it would be inevitable that he would have intervened. However from the real world perspective this is just a continuity error, and the outcome of the Miracle remains unknown.

Not all of 2011 is necessarily affected by the Miracle. Captain Jack probably stopped it a while before the Doctor, and with Melody being kidnapped and the Silence out to get him, he probably didn't bother about the Miracle, knowing that Jack was sorting it out, he had a hand in it after all. For all we know, Amy and Rory could have had a discussion about Miracle Day with the Doctor off-screen.

Unless we actually know the dates, we don't know that they overlapped. As far as I know, all that's been said is that Miracle Day itself was "early in the year", and it's hard to say how many days have passed in the episodes so far. Amy and Rory could have completely missed the Miracle (either too early or too late), or showed up at the tail end of it (or for the whole thing) such that it was resolved by the time the Doctor showed up again, and either way, there's no continuity error.

Well TV: Rendition takes place on 22 March, while the Doctor's death in TV: The Impossible Astronaut is just one month later on 22 April, which is probably the midpoint of Torchwood Series 4. So really the discontinuity started with The Impossible Astronaut.

In this episode, Amy states that the doctor had 'all summer' to find melody (which implies it is the end of august) whereas miracle day ended a couple of months prior. This discontinuity is still relevant with the impossible astronaut however.

• Why didn't the Doctor simply travel to 'the best hospital in the universe' to get cured? He was well enough to stand up, change some clothes, and transport the TARDIS.

It is started there is no cure, and the TARDIS has knowledge of almost everything, then it is clear that a cure is never invented.

Time Lords can delay death pretty effectively (see the 10th Doctor in The End of Time), so he probably could have gotten to the hospital. But obviously he knew that they couldn't cure him. (Even if the TARDIS doesn't actually know _everything_, it probably _does_ know everything about the capabilities of a hospital that it knows well.)

• How does Rory know the Sonic Screwdriver has a psychic interface and all Amy needs to do is "point and think" when inside the robot? The Doctor told him all he had to do is "point and press" (The Big Bang), and he said the TARDIS could home in on it when giving it to them (this episode), so how would Rory know the screwdriver has that feature?

We don't know what else the Doctor has told him about it off-screen in all their time together—or, for that matter, whether he's experimented with it himself.

At one point in the EDA novels, Fitz is fiddling with the settings and can't figure it out, and Anji impatiently grabs it and it immediately does what they need. If a similar thing happened for Rory as for Anji, it's not at all out of character that he would have realize that it's got some kind of psychic interface. (Actually, Fitz figured that out too, but assumed that it only worked for the Doctor.)

• The Teselecta put's Zimmerman's real glasses on then miniaturizes him and pulls him in through the iris opening through those same glasses. Why would people have to come in through the real iris hole in the machine, if the beam was capable of transporting them through things like glasses. I expect this was an oversight.

If the beam is (at least partly) electromagnetic, it would make sense that, just like light, it can go through some materials (like clear glasses) but not others (like a black pupil).

• If the whole point of the poison is that the Doctor couldn't regenerate out of it, how did River giving the Doctor her remaining regenerations solve anything?

She didn't give him her remaining regenerations, she used the energy that would have been used to regenerate her across her lives repair him now.

The TARDIS voice interface told him "regeneration disabled." It's possible that the poison only disables his regeneration mechanism, so he can't heal himself, but River can still use her energy to regenerate him, as she is not poisoned.

The regeneration is disabled, in other words, means that the Doctor no longer has regenerations left.

Also, regeneration isn't a yes or no thing; we've seen cases where someone is just barely able to regenerate and there's a serious risk of it not working (the 5th and 8th Doctors, for example). Having the energy of multiple regenerations poured into you by someone in the state of supernatural health that Time Lords have in the first few hours after a successful regeneration is bound to make a difference.

• How did the TARDIS fit inside the Teselecta?

When it materialised, the external shell (i.e., the 'police box') was miniaturised by the compression field, just like everything else. The same thing happened to it (albeit accidentally) in Carnival of Monsters.

In "Planet of Giants (TV story)" the TARDIS materialises at roughly an inch tall due to some mechanical fault. Therefore, the TARDIS has the ability to materialise at any given scale, and only materialises at the correct size when operating properly. In other words, it's some sort of calibration setting. If TT Capsules have that ability, but don't use it do to correct settings, then it follows that the Doctor's TARDIS, with perhaps some safety circuits disabled, can alter its size at will, but normally chooses not to. This is consistent with "Let's Kill Hitler (TV story)", but frankly little else. This concept seems to be largely absent from the show's conception of the TARDIS.

Again, just watch Carnival of Monsters. It's pretty much exactly what happens here. In Planet of the Giants, the main cause of the unintentional reduction in size was due to the doors opening at the wrong point during flight - something they obviously wouldn't normally be doing. Hence, it's not surprising that it's "absent" from most stories.

• When the Teselecta finds River, they decide to "give her hell", but aren't they supposed to do this to people at the end of their timelines like what they were planning with Hitler? Wouldn't it be more logical to do it shortly before River met the Tenth Doctor in TV: Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead?

The reason they punish people at the end of their timelines is to avoid changing history. In this case, history was being dramatically changed right in front of their eyes, by their target, so it would actually make sense to take her out then to prevent her doing more damage.

Why, then, did the Tescelecta want to kill Hitler in 1940, when he infact died in 1945?

Because, the way I saw it, the Teselecta workers were bits of idiots who kept confusing dates, the Hitler example shows quite clearly they are quite rubbish at this. Same could be with River, or they thought they are now allowed to punish her as she almost killed the Doctor then. Or they thought she'd already killed him on the lake (from her point of view) and they can now punish her, because, once again, they are rubbish.

• Why would the Teselecta have ever had any reason to appear as Rasputin? Who would they need to punish where that would be useful? Even if they were after Tsar Nicholas II near July 1918, disguising themselves as Rasputin would have been counterproductive (since he was 18 months dead, and would have been near the top of the Bolsheviks' public enemy list if he weren't dead).

Maybe they went to a costume party? Maybe the person they were trying to 'give hell to' was at a costume party, and they infiltrated it? Think outside the box.

Alternatively, it could be someone that we don't think of as a war criminal, or who actually wasn't in "our timeline". Or for that matter, it could have been a different Rasputin.

• If River can use her regenerative energy to hold back a Nazi firing squad, then why, when the Doctor regenerates in The Impossible Astronaut, doesn't he use his energy to stop the astronaut from killing him?

River had already finished regenerating, whereas the Doctor "didn't make it to the next" body yet. Put another way, the astronaut interrupted the Doctor's cycle. River had already completed hers, and was basically using the "residual energy" to fix herself after the gunshots.

Plus, as we later find out, there was no regeneration involved in The Impossible Astronaut.

• The Doctor requests an emergency voice interface with the TARDIS and after rejecting images of past companions settles on a projection of Amelia. This appears to contradict TV: The Doctor's Wife on two fronts: first, that episode establishes that the Doctor and the TARDIS cannot communicate in this fashion (after he asks her if they can) and second, wouldn't the TARDIS project an image of Idris since she'd recently taken that form? While it's possible to argue that the "soul" of the TARDIS (i.e. Idris/Sexy) is separate from the actual control interface (i.e. the operating system), that's also contradicted somewhat by the ending of the earlier episode in which the TARDIS manipulates her own controls.

Not really, no. We've seen holographic projections used by the TARDIS for simple communication before. The communication here is very "matter-of-fact" and impersonal, with simple relaying of facts. Think of it as communicating with the computer-like aspect of the TARDIS. The heart and soul of the TARDIS is still there and accessible, but only in the semi-sentient, partially telepathic way that it always has been.

This theory is actually backed up by one of the novels. Compassion, a (post-)human who evolves into the first fully-sapient TARDIS, discoveres that she has holographic interfaces, and reconfigures herself so she can use them to communicate with the Doctor and Fitz. That implies that a normal TARDIS has these interfaces, run by a simple (from a Time Lord point of view) AI, and they're not under control of the Heart, just as the last answer suggests.

Of course that also implies that, if the Doctor remembered those events and figured out how Compassion did it, he could also give "Sexy" at least some kind of input to those interfaces so she can at least color the AI speech with her emotions, which I think both of them would appreciate. But there are good reasons why he might not remember Compassion at all beyond vague hints (he'd replaced that part of his memory with a copy of the Matrix), and why he might not have any clue how she did most of what she did (the Doctor's only attempt to modify her was a huge mess, and she dumped him and picked up Nivet, the best TARDIS mechanic on Gallifrey, because he was the only one with any hope of understanding her).

• The child Amelia never, to our knowledge, entered the TARDIS. Also, while the adult Amy invoked "fish fingers and custard" within the TARDIS, young Amelia and the Doctor shared their FF&C moment away from the TARDIS. How would the interface know about Amelia and connect her with FF&C (and not only that, replicate her voice)?

The TARDIS has a psychic interface, it got the information from the Doctor's mind.

Additionally, as was shown in The Trial of a Time Lord, things that happen within a certain vicinity of a TARDIS can be recorded (and at that point were being uploaded to the Matrix).

• Why did Amy disable her and Rory's own security bracelets instead of just the bracelets of the Teselecta crew?

She points it at hers first to either show what her threat is, or perhaps thinking it will disable all of them. Once she points it at the controls, it actually does disable all of them (including Rory's).

• Why has the Doctor's attitude towards Regeneration changed so dramatically?

Different Doctors have different personalities so it makes sense that they'd have different opinions of things (case in point: Alcohol). Besides, he was desperate, and it's not like the Tenth Doctor stopped himself from regenerating just because he didn't want to.

Also, to be clear, he isn't saying he's eager to regenerate. He just thinks for a moment that it's the only option.

• Since the Teselecta crew are so concerned about punishing Hitler at the wrong point in his timeline, why do they allow the antibodies to kill Erich Zimmerman, who presumably was not destined to die yet?

Killing Hitler would be much more likely to drastically change history than killing Zimmerman, and that's what the crew are worried about.

Along those same lines, he may have already done everything "significant" that he was known to do.

• I don't understand the fixed points in time. Hitler dies in 1945, yet the Teselecta tries to kill Hitler in 1938, but they realise they are two years too early. Are any of the dates, fixed points in history? They know the Doctors death is a fixed point.

Not to kill. To punish. It's different. Though it seems that the fixed point is for Hitler to start a war and play a major part in it in the first years, and all the rest is probably not fixed, at least Teselecta thinks that Hitler can be punished in 1940 and even if history changes (and it obviously would, as Hitler would remember the punishment, and if he didn't, there would be no point in punishing him at all), that history is not fixed so they can do what they want. That is if we don't take into consideration my main idea about Teselecta, which is them being rubbish. They confused 1938 and 1940, they could also easily confuse 1940 and 1945. Their actions in the episode do seem a bit chaotic and amateurish, and we don't even know who authorised their work in the first place.