Talk:John (Knock Knock)

Source for the name?

Maybe I wasn't listening carefully enough but I don't recall the name "John" being spoken in the episode. So where does it come from? MystExplorer ☎ 16:58, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

Near the end of the episode, when Eliza grabs his arm, she whispers "John". OncomingStorm12th ☎ 17:02, May 7, 2017 (UTC)

I didn't hear that. And my sound was turned to maximum. I have watched 3 times now. --DCLM ☎ 15:52, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

For the benefit of other readers, the moment in dispute is roughly at 39:45 into the episode. Amorkuz ☎ 17:55, May 8, 2017 (UTC)

I did not hear the name 'John' either after watching the moment in question a couple of times. --Borisashton ☎ 19:31, May 11, 2017 (UTC)

I didn't really hear the name either (though did hear a faint 'huuh' sound), but the iPlayer subtitles mention the word 'John'. I think that he is actually called John. 81.103.146.200^{talk to me} 05:29, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

Since this is not confirmed by the BBCA subtitles, as seen on the US iTunes version of the episode, could you please upload a screenshot of the iPlayer closed captioning?
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  07:42: Sat 13 May 2017

See here. -- Saxon 13:39, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

My iTunes subtitles don't have anything for that moment, but I admit I can hear her whispering "John" at 39:47.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 19:03, May 13, 2017 (UTC)

Saxon, is that a screenshot of the iPlayer subtitles? Or is iPlayer and iTunes the same thing? OS25 (Talk) 04:19, May 14, 2017 (UTC)

That looks like the iPlayer subtitles I saw (in the UK). 81.103.146.200^{talk to me} 05:44, May 14, 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it's BBC iPlayer. -- Saxon 17:01, May 14, 2017 (UTC)

Is it normal to have differently-colored captions on the iPlayer? This use of color doesn't happen in the iTunes version of any television programme. It's a bit weird to see it here. Since this "John" caption doesn't exist at all in the US version, I think double confirmation is prudent. Can anyone else in the UK get a second pic to confirm, please -- before the episode slides off the iPlayer?
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  02:40: Mon 15 May 2017

This caption also does not exist on iView in Australia. After he says "I will", the next caption is Eliza saying "My little boy." Tardis1963 talk 05:30, May 15, 2017 (UTC)

Here is another image.

--Borisashton ☎ 06:51, May 15, 2017 (UTC)

Also, it's perfectly normal to have different coloured captions, at least in the UK. It shows a different character is speaking. --Borisashton ☎ 06:53, May 15, 2017 (UTC)

Just another angle.

--Borisashton ☎ 06:59, May 15, 2017 (UTC)

I'd say that closes the case then. OS25 (Talk) 00:45, May 16, 2017 (UTC)

Not really. There's still a question of whether calling this page John (Knock Knock) is sensible under the guidelines of T:CHAR NAMES. The PAGENAME still has to be at a location that makes the most sense for the casual reader of the wiki. And end credits, where the character is called "The Landlord", have traditionally always trumped closed captioning. This is especially true in cases like this where different official closed captions do not agree. The page still needs to be at the name most commonly known in the DWU. I'm all for including the substance of this discussion in a BTS note -- including the screenshots that people have helpfully contributed. I'm all for retaining John (Knock Knock) as a redirect, and even including this character at the John disambiguation page. But the character is primarily and most unambiguously known as "The Landlord". And that's what the displayed PAGENAME should be.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  15:34: Wed 17 May 2017

I will maintain neutrality now that the name has been established. I am not bothered by either title being used. All I will say is that the only example I can find of someone's real name not being used is Mortimus (the Monk) and even then that is understandable as 'Mortimus' has not been used on television. 81.103.146.200^{talk to me} 13:09, May 18, 2017 (UTC)

The Monk is certainly not the only example. Omega's birth name is Peylix, while omega was a grade he received. The Rani's name is Ushas. As for humans, I think the ongoing precedent of President of Earth (Frontier in Space) is relevant here. I put a speedy rename to Dora (Frontier in Space) because she was given a name in AUDIO: The Transcendence of Ephros. Perhaps, it is fair to say that an average fan would not be aware of either John or Dora upon watching the respective story: John is barely audible and Dora was introduced in a (significantly much later different-media) story. I'm sure there are other examples of names that found their owners years after they first appeared onscreen. Amorkuz ☎ 14:09, May 18, 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure these situations are comparable to "John (Knock Knock)". The difference being that the word "John" is said in Knock Knock. "Dora (Frontier in Space)" is a mixing of sources that leads to the inaccurate implication that the word "Dora" is said somewhere in Frontier in Space. In the past, what's said in the episode has triumphed over what's said in the credits. I disagree entirely with the notion that "The Landlord" is an accurate name. CoT ? 14:29, May 18, 2017 (UTC)

I actually wouldn't be against linking the character as The Landlord, although I stated on Talk:Knock Knock (TV story) that, much like Struwwelpeter, it should never be mentioned within text that way. An article should never say "The Twelfth Doctor met the Landlord," because within the story he is not a mysterious entity who goes by the name The Landlord, but a landlord who never gives his name. However, I still think that we should absolutely mention John as his real name in-universe. There's no reason that the opening paragraph or the section describing his childhood shouldn't use the name "John." OS25 (Talk) 08:22, May 20, 2017 (UTC)