Howling:RTD fixed points vs. Darvill-Evans fixed points

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This probably isn't worth the thought I've put into it, but… I think RTD borrowed the term "fixed point in time" from the NAs, without borrowing its meaning. Am I right?

The original meaning of a "fixed point in time", from the NAs, is this: The "universal present" is somewhere around Rassilon Era 6500; everything before that is the past, and therefore immutable; everything after is the future, and therefore in flux. But time travelers "drag their present" with them. So, when the Doctor visited Perivale in 1989, he created a fixed point that was part of his (and therefore the "universal") present, and is therefore now part of the past, and therefore can't be changed.

The new series completely tossed out the way history worked in the NAs, and even gave us an in-universe explanation: With the destruction of Gallifrey, the Web of Time was replaced by a great big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff. (The BBC novels had earlier done the exact same thing, except with a different destruction of Gallifrey in a different Time War, and without the word "timey-wimey".)

Nevertheless, the new series (unlike the BBC novels) uses the term "fixed point in time", all the time. Is it the same concept, or even related? For example, the Silence seeing the Doctor get killed at Lake Silencio in 2011 was a fixed point in time, one that the Silence intentionally created. Does that have anything to do with the Doctor dragging his present along to 2011? I can't see any way in which it does.

(By the way, if I'm right that they're completely unrelated concepts, I think the RTD version is a much more interesting one. But that's neither here nor there.) --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 06:25, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

The RTD version is certainly an interesting one but it makes no sense. 94.72.194.203^{talk to me} 15:41, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to try comparing the two uses of the term "fixed point in time", since I've no knowledge of the NAs. What I will do is ask 94 to explain why he/she thinks the RTD version makes no sense. We don't know a huge amount about the RTD version & we certainly don't know all the fine details of it, let alone how it's related to the Moffat concept of a "still point in time", but there's a substantial difference between "we don't have enough information to make proper sense of it" & "it makes no sense".

Please note: I'm not saying 94's wrong about it not making sense. It's just that the bald statement without explanation doesn't get us anywhere. (There's also the question: How is an idea that makes no sense capable of being interesting?) --89.240.250.160^{talk to me} 20:48, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the bald statement doesn't get us anywhere. There are a few things that are problematic; I think there are answers for most of them which don't require too much fanwank, but maybe I'm fooling myself.

• A fixed point can never, ever be changed, but River changed one: It's not that it's physical impossible to change them, just that doing so unravels all of causality, which is something you should never, ever do.

• All Time Lords can sense fixed points; they're "the burden of the Time Lords", but they're part of the timey-wimey nature of post-LGTW history where there are no Time Lords: He's using the same words for pre-LGTW events that, if pulled on, would tear the Web of Time as for post-LGTW events that would unravel the chaotic ball of timey-wimey, because they feel exactly the same to him.

• Nobody can sense them but Time Lords, but the Daleks were afraid to touch Adelaide Brooke because she was a fixed point: The Daleks have some technological way to detect them.

• Captain Jack isn't an event, he's a person: The Doctor is speaking loosely; maybe it's Jack's existence at each moment in time that's fixed.

Anything else? --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 01:55, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

About Jack: The Doctor did say that Jack was "an impossible thing" & that both he & the TARDIS were extremely uncomfortable in Jack's presence. That's presumably related to their perception of a fixed point that's a person, not an event. The Doctor said that Jack, not Jack's existence, was a fixed point & he was in "technical explanation mode" when he did so, making it unlikely that he was speaking loosely. (I'm usually 89 but I'm 2, just now.) --2.96.31.113^{talk to me} 07:01, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I have a theory that Jack's "immortality" is simply him being stuck in a single moment of time, but he carries it around with him and can interact with others, ages, and can travel through time and space. This is why he just feels wrong to TARDIS and the Doctor.AthertonX ☎ 22:36, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

When the Doctor was talking to Donna inside Vesuvius (The Fires of Pompeii), he spoke of knowing what could be changed "and what must not". That emphasises that a fixed point is something it would be disastrous to change, not something it's physically impossible to change. If it were impossible to change a fixed point, there'd not be much to worry about -- you could do whatever you wanted & it wouldn't change, though it might foul up what you were trying to do. --2.96.31.113^{talk to me} 08:50, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

2 aka 89, that makes sense. After all, the Doctor tried to change a fixed point in The Waters of Mars, and seemed to succeed, but then the major event (Adelaide's death) still happened, just not in the "original" way. So it is "doable" but either is ultimately futile or causes all of reality to unravel. Shambala108 ☎ 15:10, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Shambala108: Yes, The Waters of Mars is important because it shows that, even when an event is a fixed point, not all of the circumstances are necessarily fixed. Although the central event -- Adelaide's death by her own hand -- still occurred, almost all the surrounding circumstances were different: location -- Earth, not Mars; method -- gun, not nuclear explosion; other fatalities & so on. The Fires of Pompeii, apart from the Doctor's description of what a fixed point is (something it'd be disastrous to change), also shows that the Doctor's perceptions -- or his interpretation of his perceptions -- can be wrong. He thought the destruction of Pompeii was a fixed point but then realised it was something he had done: "It's not history, it's me. I make it happen." (Quote from memory, so may not be word perfect.) Mind you, that might not be him being wrong about it being a fixed point. It might instead be another example of the surrounding circumstances being changeable -- the destruction was fixed but the events leading to it were not & any set of events that brought about the eruption would be OK. Not OK from the point of view of the Pompeiians, obviously, but OK for the integrity of the timestream. (Having been 89 & then 2, I now seem to be 78, but I'm still me.) --78.146.190.43^{talk to me} 16:02, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think the concept of a "Fixed Point," as related in the Davies and Moffat eras makes complete sense. The NA concept only "makes more sense" because there is more of a schematic for it. But if time is naturally in flux, then a schematic makes little sense. The concept of a "Fixed Point" as I understand it, is essentially that it quantifies a moment. If we look at the entirety of Time and the nature of causality as a whole, we must accept that it is made up of an innumerable amount of parts. Now, as with many machines, there are certain parts that the machine simply cannot run without. A computer with no mainframe, for example. There are other parts, smaller parts, with which the machine would find a way to function with very little operating differently: A graphics card with slightly better or worse tech specs. say, or a damaged battery that will still hold a charge just not for as long. Time itself goes on, History remains unchanged. Remember that so much of what happens in time is never recorded in history. Do you know what George Washington had for breakfast on the day of the Battle of Bunker Hill? Would eating an apple rather than a bowl of oatmeal have changed the course of the battle? Only a Time Lord can tell. That is how their brain works, and what they have built their society around. It is their burden to make sure that the answers to these questions are never challenged. If something must happen, it. must. happen. I think this is the explanation for why the Doctor was able to save a family from Pompeii, even though he could do nothing else about it. And the reason that he could not save Adelaide Brooke, and that Time had to find a way of correcting itself (with the help of Captain Brooke's realization that "the Time Lord Victorious is wrong.") It's about which events in time are so great that they cannot be changed without the nature of causality itself crumbling into nothingness; as seen when River failed to kill the Doctor.

It also provides more of a frame for how the Doctor works this way. Because, if we accept that his problem with the Time Lords was their platform of non-intervention, and that their burden was simply making sure everything ran according to the schedule which Fixed Points would lay down, (a logical assumption based on every time the Doctor steps out of the TARDIS and can already tell something is wrong by observing technology that should not have been developed yet) his argument could very easily have been that they could still be helping to make better the moments that did exist in flux, and that seeing Time the way a Time Lord did, they would know when they had gone too far. That the only reason that Time Lords "swore never to interfere" was because they were beaurocratic, officious, authoritarians who would rather police the Universe than help spread hope through it. The Doctor's argument could have very easily been that if they assisted those dealing with events in flux, that by the time the Universal Present approached, they may not be needed any more. Which would seem to echo in the Doctor's plea to Craig in "Closing Time," "I have to die, but that's okay, as long as you prove me right."

2/89/78, I think after The Wedding of River Song, your interpretation is nearly unimpeachable. A fixed point can be changed, because we saw River do so; it has disastrous consequences, which we actually saw; the event doesn't necessarily have to happen in the exact same way, just happen, because we saw the Doctor change the circumstances of his death.

But I think that actually makes the Jack case more difficult. If it would just be disastrous for Jack to die, how does that stop a bunch of 20th century humans from killing him?

Unsigned poster: I really like your point about non-intervention. The Time Lords used the risk to the Web of Time as an excuse to avoid helping, but they knew, or should have known, that there was no risk.

Going back to your first point, I think you've hit the nail on the head: The NA concept makes more sense, but only because it's part of a complete framework, completely explained to us. Which is also why it's less interesting. The best Who writers have always given us the sense that time is far more complicated than we can possibly understand, while letting us understand just enough to make sense of their stories. There are moments where we say, "Wow, I didn't think of that!" (The Wedding of River Song, or Unnatural History), or where we feel a little thrill at piecing things together (Ghost Light, or Interference), and none of that's possible if we already know all the rules. Darvill-Evans was trying to turn Doctor Who into hard science fiction, and if he'd succeeded it would have been a disaster. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 21:31, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Wow. I mean, even beyond the general "Wow" of the story of Amelia Pond, and Nick Hurran turning out to be even better than Adam Smith at directing an Angel episode, and so on… "Wow" that the whole episode was about fixed points in time. At the end, when Amy lets the Angel send her back, she's creating "fixed time", so the Doctor can never see her again. Doing so would blow New York off the map.

The odd thing is that the conversation around 12:50 about not reading ahead didn't have any mention of fixed points. Does that mean that it _was_ still changeable, just not by _them_ now that they'd read it? --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 22:35, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

It sounded to me as if that conversation did mean the fixing effect applied only to them. (I've only watched the episode once, though, so I reserve the right to reconsider after I've seen it a couple more times.) --89.241.77.184^{talk to me} 23:12, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I should mention that I've also only watched it once, although I did rewind that 12:05 conversation just to see if the Doctor mentioned "fixed point" or anything similar. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 23:19, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Atherton, on a long forum thread, don't post answers in the middle of other text or nobody's going to see them. I just happened to see yours by accident, so I'll copy it down here:

I have a theory that Jack's "immortality" is simply him being stuck in a single moment of time, but he carries it around with him and can interact with others, ages, and can travel through time and space. This is why he just feels wrong to TARDIS and the Doctor.AthertonX ☎ 22:36, September 30, 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but this theory (just like every other theory I've heard to explain Jack) doesn't seem to explain why he dies and comes back to life, instead of just not dying.

Actually, I _have_ heard one theory that explains that, but I don't like it: Jack's being alive is fixed at every moment that the Bad Wolf Entity observed; the reason he can die for a while is because she didn't actually observe every nanosecond of (every parallel strand of?) history from start to finish. (I can't remember if that was someone's idea here, or at a forum or blog, or IRL…) --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 05:58, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, 70. I did think of that but I wanted to keep a more logical sequence. Ha! Thanks for your thoughts as well. I have kind of been thinking of it as a short loop of time and he gets thrown back to the beginning, "before" he died. However, this doesn't sit neatly with the times he was dead for a long time. Unless time moves differently external to the loop ... hmm ...AthertonX ☎ 23:50, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

In reference to it being stated above that the Doctor changed the circumstances of his death: Technically it wasn't his death that was ever the fixed point. The destruction of the Tessalecta was always the fixed point that was meant to happen, he just didn't know yet. (Unless I'm misunderstanding, that's exactly what the Tessalecta had done throughout all of the moments in history they visited- extracted someone right before the end of their timeline, "gave them hell", and then proceeded to die as that person in the same manner as they were recorded to die. So all of those deaths that were recorded had been the Tessalecta dying over and over.) So the only reason he believed it was supposed to be his death was because he (as his future self) had already made everyone believe that was his actual death, so that's how it was recorded in history and then later interpreted by his younger self. Which is interesting because that makes me wonder... If River had somehow killed the actual Doctor at that point, wouldn't the same thing have happened as when she failed to destroy the Tessalecta? Meaning that, in theory, on the day of his recorded death he couldn't have possibly died there at Lake Silencio. Or that if he did die there, it would have changed the fixed point and irrevocably begun the destruction of time and reality.Saghan ☎ 22:52, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Saghan: OK, but that means that the Doctor can't see exactly what's fixed. He can tell there was a fixed point there, but he can't tell that it's not actually his death that's fixed; it's his presence in the Teselecta that appears to die. And maybe the same thing is true in Waters of Mars, he didn't really change the fixed point even a little, he was just wrong about exactly what was fixed. But if not even Time Lords can distinguish that, it's ultimately not much different: "The general event is fixed, but you can change some of the details a little" vs. "Some of the details are fixed too, but you don't know which ones, so you can still change some of the details a little". It may even be a little of both.

Anyway, the odd thing is that TATM seems to connect us the two different notions of fixed points a lot more than they were before. The reason River's broken wrist and Amy's farewell are fixed is not that they're so central to the history of the universe or attached to a weak point in the causal structure or whatever the usual explanation is, but that the Doctor's and Amy's own past has become entwined with their present/future. Maybe that's the way, or at least a way, that fixed points come about in general? If so, maybe the post-LGTW universe isn't that much different from the pre-War one after all? --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 04:35, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

There seems to have been a change in the language used. The Tenth Doctor several times spoke of not being allowed to change --or even to revisit -- "established events". The 2 clearest instances I can recall at the moment are the end of Smith and Jones when he's talking to Martha & does the taking-off-his-tie trick to prove he's a time traveller, then has to explain why he didn't warn her to stay away from work that day, & the scene in the TARDIS in The End of Time when he's explaining to Wilf why he can't go back in time to his pursuit of the Master & stop the Master getting away (the dialog ends with the Doctor saying, "Understand?" & Wilf replying, "Not a word."). The term "established events" was used to mean things the Doctor couldn't do anything about because they were already in his personal timeline & were therefore fixed for him. The Eleventh Doctor has several times talked of things being "fixed" when Ten's term "established" would seem to apply. The Doctor may actually mean the same thing but saying "fixed" instead of "established" allows us to get confused about the difference between that & "fixed points" -- a term they've both used.

Now, of course, we've another similar term to grapple with: "fixed time". It's a pity we can't consult to the experts at the Academy on Gallifrey to find out exactly what all these terms really mean! --2.96.26.113^{talk to me} 13:17, October 2, 2012 (UTC)