Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/Hell Bent

You are exploring the Discontinuity Index, a place where any details or rumours about unreleased stories are forbidden.
Please discuss only those whole stories which have already been released, and obey our spoiler policy.

This page is for discussing the ways in which Hell Bent doesn't fit well with other DWU narratives. You can also talk about the plot holes that render its own, internal narrative confusing.

Remember, this is a forum, so civil discussion is encouraged. However, please do not sign your posts. Also, keep all posts about the same continuity error under the same bullet point. You can add a new point by typing:

* This is point one.
::This is a counter-argument to point one.
:::This is a counter-argument to the counter-argument above
* This is point two.
::Explanation of point two.
::Further discussion and query of point two.

... and so on. 

• At the very end of the Universe how did Ashildr know about the Doctor's attempt at saving Clara?
  • Good point. There is a lot we obviously don't know about Ashildr. She seems to have become an almost Doctor-like figure, manipulating time and events. Somehow she has acquired the technology to place herself in a bubble that stops her disintegrating with the rest of the universe. From the end of the episode we know she can operate a TARDIS. We also know that the Time Lords contacted her to set a trap for the Doctor. It is likely that they would have had to make a deal with her, perhaps giving her access to Time Lord technology. This would make sense for a woman obsessed with following the Doctor.So perhaps she somehow observed all the events on Gallifrey. Or could it be possible that the Doctor exiled Rassillon because he knew what the Doctor wanted to do and would have tried to stop him. Did Rassillon then make contact with Ashildr and warn her?
  • There were presumably extensive Time Lord historical record of the events. These may have survived longer than Time Lord civilisation and Ashildr read them and remembered because of what was written about the ruins of Gallifrey.
• How did Ashildr get a piercing when the Mire chip should have instantly healed the wound.

Maybe it would heal if she took it out.

Such is the case in real life with most piercings. As long as she keeps the stud or ring in, it should stay put. Also the Doctor indicated in The Woman Who Lived that Ashildr is not indestructible. She just can't die normally. A small wound like a piercing wouldn't likely have any consequence.

Wasn't he just saying that the nanites can't heal too much damage at once with this? The nanites are repairing her cells, therefore the degeneration is stopped and she can't age.

Healing for everyone involves repairing cells. But if something is blocking this, like a piece of metal, then the healing cannot make that metal disappear. If Ashildr removed the stud it would probably heal instantly, but as long as she has something in there, it'll stay.

• In Face The Raven it was stated that the Raven searches in space and time for its victims, so if Clara had gained a pulse wouldn't the Raven start looking for her again? And one more thing , how can a neuro thingy can be human compatible and would work for the Doctor too? I know the Time Lords invented it but the humans have another biology so if it works to humans it can't work for time lords or the other way round.

Compatible just meant that it worked with humans too, doesn't mean it stops working for Time Lords.

Regarding the raven - the raven gets its soul in "Face the Raven" so it is satisfied. Clara does not get her pulse back so the point is moot; the idea of the Doctor thinking this to be possible simply is meant to illustrate how his desperation and near-insanity after the confession dial is impacting his ability to think things through.

• The Doctor's reasoning for up and deciding to part ways with Clara seems flimsy. It's supposedly because of what the fear of losing her did to him, but if she's essentially immortal until she goes back to the raven, then presumably they could travel for the rest of time and he would never have that fear again. And it's not as if the web of time would be damaged at all, since we're led to believe that Clara and Ashildir can travel about with no consequences. So, what was standing in their way really?
  • Several reasons. One is that Clara herself wants it, and would rather accept her death than have what the Doctor has become (she particularly doesn't want to live without memories of the Doctor). Ohila also observes how the Doctor is breaking his moral code. The Doctor had to learn to accept personal loss, that not everyone can be saved however much he wants it, and summer must end - he can only do that by breaking the relationship or forgetting her. If you accept that the Hybrid prophecy is mostly a device of the Doctor's rather than a real threat, these scenes still make sense: neither the Doctor nor Clara are being honest with each other. However, as a metaphor, the Hybrid is a warning of the Doctor becoming a monster.
  • I think it's largely due to Ashildir's theory that the Hybrid was the combination of the Doctor and Clara. If they continued down the path they were on, the Doctor would only become more ruthless and would end up fulfilling the prophecy. So he came to the conclusion that it would be best if they separated.
  • Clara would clearly do anything to save the Doctor (and indeed in the past she has, ref. the echoes). With Clara technically immortal the Doctor will actually become the breakable one. He might not have to worry about her safety, but she'd now worry about his, so staying together would simply trade one situation for an identical one.
• Not necessarily a plot hole, but the Time Lords put up with a lot from the Doctor in this episode. Respect for a war hero is one thing, but given how ruthless we've seen the Time Lords be in the past, it's hard to believe that the general would just let the Doctor shoot him/her and then just stay back as he monkeys around in the Cloister.
  • Considering the general know not only of the doctor exploit during the war, but may know about the doctor taking care of Omega (Twice), Goth and of course valeyard spectacle. He may have decided he rather risk regeneration then the doctor wrath.
  • The General also seems to personally respect the Doctor quite a bit. He did also save the General, the High Council, and indeed every single one of them from destruction by the Daleks. He is more than just a war hero.
  • Also, based on what the General says after having gotten rid of her first male body, the Doctor appears to have done her a bit of a favour. She may not have been that upset about it. Consider that this person is a soldier who went from being an elderly man to a much younger person, better able to command troops; the General might well have seen it as a positive outcome on several levels.
• How did Ashildr/Me tell the Doctor "Clara died billions of years ago" if she has a finite memory? In "Face the Raven", she said something along the lines of "immortal body, finite memory". So how did she remember Clara dying?
  • Its stated during the scene that she's the one keeping together the small pocket of universe left so she has somewhere to live, so its completely possible she could've done something with her memory.
  • She just didn't forget that. A finite memory doesn't mean she forgets everything. In The Woman Who Lived we learn that she forgot her name and her village, but she still remembered the Doctor.
  • There's also the point that she tends to keep notes about things that happen to her. She may have considered this a major event (and rightfully so) and just kept up with that journal entry.
  • Also, over billions of years she might have figured out a way to keep her memories intact over time. Maybe she has a computer chip in her head or altered the Mire tech in some way.
• How can Ashildr live until the end of the universe? I mean, really? Even Captain Jack Harkness, who was immortalised by Bad Wolf the almost-all-powerful-entity, faced death after living so much time. How can simple medical circuit make someone immortal by that time? After all, where are the Mires? They are the ones who invented the magical immortal circuit.
  • Captain Jack Harkness was just revived without control. It wasn't the plan to make him immortal, she just made him survive until he could tell the Doctor about the Master and help in New(x15) York.
  • She lives because she created a Reality Bubble where she can live and watch the universe dying, the other immortals are all dead because of the end of the universe
  • Additionally, it's not just an ordinary Mire medical kit - the Doctor modified it when he saved her life.
• Ashildr claims to be at the end of the universe but then says that Clara died billions of years ago, not trillions as we were led to believe back in "Utopia", where the end of time was stated as being the year 100 trillion. To further this, The General also states that Clara has been dead for 4.5 billion years, "half the life of the universe". That's means the universe lives for 9 billion years, most certainly not 100 trillion. This is most certainly a discontinuity?
  • It was just a figure of speech. He didn't mean half the life of the universe, he was just talking about a long time
  • What about Ashildr's claim of Clara dying billions of years ago?
    • There are many billions in a trillion, so it is correct. She could've said millions and it would still have been correct. Not very accurate, but correct.
  • It could also be that the Time Lords were speaking from the Doctor's perspective of time. He was transported straight after Clara's death into the Confession Dial, where he spent over 4 billion years, and then breaks free onto Gallifrey. Ashildr's claim of billions of years? Hard to say.
    • It could have been a figure of speech, or she was also speaking from the Doctor's perspective.
  • In the "long scale" mathematics system used in Britain, "billion" is the same as trillion. So there is no error here. See [1].
• The Tenth Doctor made a huge fuss over regenerating, to the point where he claimed that it was essentially another man walking away with his memories... yet Twelve dismisses regeneration as 'man-flu'? Huh?
  • The Tenth Doctor also hated guns, the Time Lords, taking advantage of his victory in the Time War, etc. The Twelfth Doctor is much different psychologically; the Tenth Doctor was very emotional, so even though every incarnation is a separate persona, it was also a minor inconvenience for some. I think it's mainly that the Tenth and Twelfth Doctors are different personas, so they have different perspectives.
  • To further that, he also wasn't going to let the man stay standing, he wouldn't "get out of the way". Also, the Doctor was willing to shoot the Master or Rassilon back in "The End of Time"; he only changed his mind when he realised the link wasn't either of them.
  • The Tenth Doctor is literally the only Doctor who made a big deal about regeneration. The only other doctor who got upset about regenerating was the second and that was because he was being forced to regenerate. It should be obvious that the Tenth Doctor's reaction is the exception to the reality of what regeneration is like for a Time Lord.
    • I think it's worth noting that the Eleventh Doctor dismissed the Tenth's attitude towards regeneration as "vanity issues".
      • Remember too that in this story the Doctor has really gone off the rails. He's prepared to risk the destruction of all time and space to save Clara. 'You've broken every rule you've ever lived by' says the Sisterhood of Karn. 'I've gone too far' he says at the end. So naturally he'll dismiss robbing a fellow time lord of a life as inconsequential. We really see the Doctor at his lowest. I found myself almost siding with the Time Lords, especially when he Doctor is told that all he had to do to escape the confession dial was admit what he knew of the hybrid.Great story, though I was a little disappointed that, having been reintroduced to the Matrix after three decades, it played no real role in the story. Similarly the sliders, scary as they were, didn't exactly do anything.
        • Fair points but I don't think it changes my initial comment about the Tenth Doctor much - he really had the most negative view of regeneration of any Doctor. The Doctor may have gone off the rails in this episode but the idea that regeneration isn't actually big deal for most Time Lords isn't necessarily him going to far.

You also have to think though that at that point, he knew this was his last regeneration. He knew that that was it. His last incarnation. Imagine how you might get when you're at that time of your life. At first, you really fear it, but then, once you're closer to it (Eleven, circa Time of the Doctor), you sort of just accept it. Ten was just suuuuuper scared is all.

• • • • • Plus, given how the Time Lords are usually described when not in the Time War ("dusty, old politicians" as said in School Reunion), they may not typically see regeneration as vital to survival as the Doctor. One incarnation can live at least 1000+ years, once stated to be 10,000, before regenerating. Given the Doctor's current estimated age, he should barely be in his second body at most. He lives an incredibly dangerous life that necessitates having regenerations left, whereas living a normal lowkey life as a typical Time Lord, regenerating would be an inconvenience for than anything. Also, the Tenth Doctor still believed the Time Lords were gone, meaning he was probably in a panic on approaching his final body; as for the "new man" comments, it seems to be a general belief (2 being mad at his appearance changing, 9 saying goodbyes to Rose as if he was dying, the General believing her male incarnation had a bigger ego than her, etc.), but given the Tenth's vanity, it was much more pronounced. Finally, being a higher up authority on Gallifrey, the General would likely have access to more regeneration cycles.

Aside from the above valid points, do keep in mind that every Doctor has different attitudes towards things. The Twelfth Doctor, for example, is considerably more anti-military than others.

• The Doctor said he was looking for the TARDIS in London after losing memory. So he just got to Nevada, then went to England, then again to Nevada? It seemed that he was going to the bar straight after waking up.

Not unless he stopped at a guitar shop along the way. There is nothing to indicate how long it's been. We also don't know what led him to that diner in the first place so presumably he received some sort of message indicating he might find the TARDIS there; he didn't just randomly show up and Clara and Ashildr didn't just wait till the Doctor's hitchhike ended before parking their TARDIS!Diner. It's pretty obvious that Clara orchestrated the entire thing, but the nuts and bolts of this are left a mystery.

• The Doctor says Clara's bodily processes have been time-locked. If so, how can she produce tears? Or drink lemonade?
  • Or talk, or move, or do anything, for that matter.Yes, I found the extraction thing a difficult concept. If Clara is extracted a moment before her death, surely her heart would be racing, not silent. And why not extract her at an earlier point in her timestream?
    • They extracted her because the Doctor claimed he needed to question her. Therefore, they needed her to move and talk. Maybe the extraction process is an inexact science, allowing for some bodily processes but not others. As to why extracted her at the moment of her death, my guess is they didn't want to risk messing up the timeline by sending her back with knowledge of Gallifrey and the Doctor's future. Plus they have access to the sum total of her knowledge at that moment.
      • Extracting her at the moment of her death was necessary to avoid a major paradox because the Doctor needed to have seen her die in order to arrange for her to be extracted later. Extracting her earlier in her time stream (even, say, before they entered trap street or a week earlier) would have been unacceptable. And even if the Doctor had this in mind, remember the whole thing was a bluff to trick the Time Lords into extracting her and they would never have allowed it.
    • This sounds a bit gross, but if you're thinking of the Owen Harper scenario, we never do see what Clara does later re: the lemonade. She might well have had to "stand on her head" at some point later. Or for all we know she did the "potted plant" trick and fooled the Doctor into thinking she was drinking it. As for the tears that could fall into the "force of habit" thing the Doctor mentions. Do note that the waitress Clara, who could be days or weeks (or longer) removed from the Cloisters, doesn't actually shed tears.
• What was the Doctor's plan exactly if he used the neuro-block on Clara? Would he have just let her lived a longer life without aging on Earth? Wouldn't Clara be confused on why she didn't have a heartbeat, that bodily functions weren't working? Would the Doctor have just come back when he felt like she had a long enough life to take her back to her death? It just seems the Doctor's original plan was extremely flawed. Am I missing something?

No, you're not. The Doctor wanted to save Clara, but he hasn't. She's still dead, but now apparently possesses some weirdy timey-wimey form of existence quite literally between life and death. The terror the Time lords wished to avoid, the Hybrid, is now gone (if indeed Me's theory about the hybrid is correct). But the great violence done to space and time by Clara's extraction which threatened to rip the universe apart has not been undone and the cosmos is still in danger. Why is Clara not returning to Gallifrey immediately, as she knows she must? And why isn't Me, who has spent her eons' long life protecting the universe against the Doctor, urging her to do so? The otherwise brilliant story ends on a somewhat unsatifactory tone. Why, o why must characters always be brought back to life!!!

You aren't false, but this was kinda the theme for this episode.. the Doctor has gone mad and follows routes he didn't plan through exactly and/or knows have minimal chances. If I'm not mistaken he wanted to confuse the quantum shade with her beeing not the same person, therefore letting her heartbeat return, but that is just theory of course.

Doctor Who is a fantasy and the idea of keeping characters alive is totally in keeping with the concept. If I were a time traveller as powerful as the Doctor there are a bunch of people I'd keep alive no matter the cost. The whole moral is why this is not a good thing. And Clara is still dead - in fact her death is made all the more sadder when you realize it's now a suicide. Think it through.

I wouldn't call it a suicide. She is accepting her fate, which is what she did from the beginning. She owns her actions and accepts the consequences. This is in contrast to the Doctor, who, as you say, is a powerful master of time and cannot accept the fact of Clara's death. He is prepared to risk everything to undo what she has done, harkening back to the terrible god-like arrogance of the Tenth Doctor. This is the quandry the Doctor is always facing - 'I can save these people, but should I?' Who does he rescue, and who does he leave to die? Who is he to choose? And who is he to rob people of their choice to accept their future? This is Clara's reproach, and Ashildr's, so I guess it makes sense to have these two leave the Doctor together.

My use of "suicide" is subjective, but she has to at some point decide to go back to the extraction chamber, and her reasons for doing so we may never learn. Is she forced to do so by the Time Lords of someone else? If so, then that's technically murder in much the same way that the Time Lords executed the Second Doctor. If she goes in voluntarily, there must be some reason why she would decide to do so, and not necessarily a happy one. It could be a form of suicide, unless she is later depicted as doing this as more a form of self-sacrifice (maybe the universe starts falling apart or something and she realizes the only way to save lives is to go back to the raven).

Because this is Doctor Who, things get pretty weird. At the end of the story Clara is still dead. Her death is a historical fact. She has been killed by the Raven and that cannot be undone. The Clara that flies away with Me in a Nevada diner lives within the nanosecond before her death. History hasn't been changed (we might ask why the Doctor didn't try to change the events that lead to her death). So we can't talk about her suicide or murder because she's already dead and has accepted the fact of her death and continues to do so. If and when she returns to Gallifrey the Timelords would merely return her to her proper place and time, righting the violence done to space and time.

• Ashildr mentions the Doctor is a high born Gallifreyan. I don't know how much of the Doctor's past is explored other than bits and bobs in recent years, but I thought the Doctor was born an ordinary, lowly Gallifreyan before he attended the Academy and became a Time Lord. I didn't think he had any "royal blood" in him whatsoever.

Continuity error.

In the Robert Holmes/Tom Baker stories, he's pretty clearly supposed to have grown up as a Byron-style aristocrat whose family is so important he can be insanely rebellious. And later, when Ten talks about growing up with the Master and running around their fathers' estates, that's something aristocrats do, not peasants. (The word "estate" is a clue.) And the Untempered Schism thing—that happened as a small child, so he was already expected to be a Time Lord by that young age. And the non-TV media run even farther with that; he's from one of the Prydonian Great Houses. Really, the only hint before this very episode that he might have been low-born was in the 50th anniversary, and this episode is just telling us that what we think we saw earlier in the episode wasn't what it looked like. There's no continuity error.

Also, it's worth remembering that almost every story set on Gallifrey in the history of the show has massively contradicted every previous story, even when there wasn't a Time War in between. Go watch "Good Night" from "Night and the Doctor" again, or read The Gallifrey Chronicles or Unnatural History and maybe it'll make more sense.

• Where did the stranger appear from at the end? Why didn't Clara drop off the Doctor outside the diner/TARDIS?
• Isn't Gallifrey still Timelocked? So, how did the Leader of the Sisterhood of Karn, and Ashildr able to get to Gallifrey?
  • The Doctor rescued Gallifrey from destruction. He did not detonate the Moment and so did not need to timelock the Time War.
• Even if Gallifrey isn't Timelocked, how was Ohila able to find the planet, and get there?
  • Even though the universe can't locate Gallifrey, Gallifrey can still communicate with the universe. For example, it arranged a trap for the Doctor through Ashildir. It granted the 11th Doctor a new cycle of regenerations. So it seems likely that Gallifrey reached out to Ohila for some purpose that is not explained onscreen.
    • Are you suggesting that Gallifrey is sentient?
• The prophecy about the hybrid according to Me(formerly Ashildir) could be interpreted as human and Timelord, and it's supposed to be so unprecedented/rare. But what about in Journey's End when DoctorDonna existed? Why wouldn't this raise any red flags about the prophecy?