Forum:Series Wars

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<img _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22double-brackets%22%2C%22lineStart%22%3A%22%22%2C%22title%22%3A%22Forumheader%22%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%7B%7BForumheader%7CPanopticon%7D%7D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" _rte_placeholder="1" class="placeholder placeholder-double-brackets" src="http://images.wikia.com/common/skins/monobook/blank.gif?1" type="double-brackets" /> <img _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22comment%22%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%3C%21--%20Please%20put%20your%20content%20under%20this%20line.%20%20Be%20sure%20to%20sign%20your%20edits%20with%20four%20tildes%20--%3E%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" _rte_placeholder="1" class="placeholder placeholder-comment" src="http://images.wikia.com/common/skins/monobook/blank.gif?1" type="comment" />

I think the Christmas specials should be considered an extension of the previous series, and NOT the premier to the next series. I have a few reasons to back up my opinion:

1.They aired in the same year as that series. 2.They continue directly on from that series(With the exception of The Next Doctor). 3.They are listed as part of that series by the bbc website. 4.They have been mentioned to be part of that series several times on Confidential.


However, if people continue to list them as part of the next series, then we should also consider the latest Christmas special 'The End of Time' to be part of <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Series%205%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Series%205%20%28Doctor%20Who%29%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22.%5Cn%5CnAnd%20if%20we%20still%20cannot%20come%20to%20a%20conclusion%20to%20this%20matter%2C%20then%20I%20suggest%20that%20we%20do%20not%20list%20the%20Christmas%20specials%20under%20ANY%20series%20and%20Class%20them%20as%20standalone%20episodes.%5Cn%5Cn%3AWhere%20are%20they%20listed%20under%20the%20previous%20series%20by%20the%20BBC%20website%3F%20They%20are%20all%20under%20Specials%20in%20the%20episode%20list%20I%20see.%5Cn%3AThey%20are%20always%20included%20in%20the%20boxed%20set%20of%20the%20next%20series%2C%20except%20The%20End%20of%20Time%2C%20and%20their%20production%20code%20is%20likewise.%20--%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BSeries%205%20%28Doctor%20Who%29%7CSeries%205%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Series_5_(Doctor_Who)" title="Series 5 (Doctor Who)">Series 5</a>.

And if we still cannot come to a conclusion to this matter, then I suggest that we do not list the Christmas specials under ANY series and Class them as standalone episodes.

Where are they listed under the previous series by the BBC website? They are all under Specials in the episode list I see.
They are always included in the boxed set of the next series, except The End of Time, and their production code is likewise. -- <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Noneofyourbusiness%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%3ANoneofyourbusiness%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%2003%3A46%2C%20January%2027%2C%202010%20%28UTC%29%5Cn%5CnHere%20is%20the%20link%20to%20the%20website.%5Cn%5Cn%5Bhttp%3A%5C%2F%5C%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%5C%2Fdoctorwho%5C%2Fepisodes%5C%2F2007%5C%2Findex.shtml%5D%7F-02-0003%5Cn%5Cn%3A%3AIf%20the%20specials%20belong%20anywhere%2C%20it%27s%20in%20Series%204.%20Russell%20T.%20Davies%20and%20the%20rest%20of%20the%20production%20office%20have%20always%20referred%20to%20them%20as%20Series%204%20Episodes%2014-18%2C%20in%20DWM%20and%20probably%20in%20other%20places.%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%3ANoneofyourbusiness%7CNoneofyourbusiness%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/index.php?title=User:Noneofyourbusiness&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Noneofyourbusiness (page does not exist)" rel="nofollow">Noneofyourbusiness</a> 03:46, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Here is the link to the website.

<a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22external%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%5B1%5D%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22http%3A%5C%2F%5C%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%5C%2Fdoctorwho%5C%2Fepisodes%5C%2F2007%5C%2Findex.shtml%22%2C%22linktype%22%3A%22autonumber%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5Bhttp%3A%5C%2F%5C%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%5C%2Fdoctorwho%5C%2Fepisodes%5C%2F2007%5C%2Findex.shtml%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/episodes/2007/index.shtml" class="external autonumber" title="http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/episodes/2007/index.shtml" rel="nofollow">[1]</a>

If the specials belong anywhere, it's in Series 4. Russell T. Davies and the rest of the production office have always referred to them as Series 4 Episodes 14-18, in DWM and probably in other places. <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Skteosk%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%3ASkteosk%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%2000%3A45%2C%20January%2028%2C%202010%20%28UTC%29%5Cn%5Cn%3A%3A%3AThe%20original%20poster%20means%20the%20Christmas%20special%20of%20each%20season%2C%20not%20the%202009%20Specials.%20--%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%3ASkteosk%7CSkteosk%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/index.php?title=User:Skteosk&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Skteosk (page does not exist)" rel="nofollow">Skteosk</a> 00:45, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
The original poster means the Christmas special of each season, not the 2009 Specials. -- <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Noneofyourbusiness%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%3ANoneofyourbusiness%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%2002%3A46%2C%20January%2028%2C%202010%20%28UTC%29%5Cn%5Cn%3A%3A%3A%3AI%27m%20not%20quite%20sure%20I%20understand%20the%20controversy%20that%20this%20thread%20implies%20exists.%20I%20think%2C%20by%20and%20large%2C%20most%20people%20accept%20the%20definitions%20of%20series%20that%27ve%20handed%20to%20us%20by%20the%20series%20DVD%20releases%2C%20which%20for%20most%20of%20the%20BBC%20Wales%20version%2C%20has%20been%20the%20same%20as%20the%20production%20team%20believed%20them%20to%20be.%20Indeed%2C%20I%20strongly%20disagree%20with%20the%20OP%27s%20assertions%20that%20the%20pre-2009%20Christmas%20specials%20have%20obviously%20been%20a%20part%20of%20the%20narrative%20of%20the%20series%20that%20preceded%20it.%20Yes%2C%20they%27re%20connected%2C%20but%20they%27re%20invariably%20looking%20forward%2C%20if%20you%20ask%20me.%20TCI%20is%20a%20preview%20of%20the%20new%20Doctor%20in%20series%202.%20TRB%20is%20a%20preview%20of%20the%20necessity%20for%20the%20Doctor%20to%20replace%20Rose%20with%20Martha%20in%20Series%203.%20VOTD%20is%20a%20preview%20of%20the%20coming%20importance%20of%20the%20Noble%20family%20%28though%20perhaps%20it%20wasn%27t%20meant%20to%20be%20originally%29.%5Cn%5Cn%3A%3A%3A%3AThe%20narrative%20links%20are%20debatable%20though.%20What%27s%20rock-solid%20is%20the%20way%20in%20which%20they%20were%20produced.%20TCI%20was%20made%20in%20the%20same%20production%20block%20as%20%3Ci%3E%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%3ANoneofyourbusiness%7CNoneofyourbusiness%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/index.php?title=User:Noneofyourbusiness&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="User:Noneofyourbusiness (page does not exist)" rel="nofollow">Noneofyourbusiness</a> 02:46, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure I understand the controversy that this thread implies exists. I think, by and large, most people accept the definitions of series that've handed to us by the series DVD releases, which for most of the BBC Wales version, has been the same as the production team believed them to be. Indeed, I strongly disagree with the OP's assertions that the pre-2009 Christmas specials have obviously been a part of the narrative of the series that preceded it. Yes, they're connected, but they're invariably looking forward, if you ask me. TCI is a preview of the new Doctor in series 2. TRB is a preview of the necessity for the Doctor to replace Rose with Martha in Series 3. VOTD is a preview of the coming importance of the Noble family (though perhaps it wasn't meant to be originally).
The narrative links are debatable though. What's rock-solid is the way in which they were produced. TCI was made in the same production block as <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22New%20Earth%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22New%20Earth%20%28TV%20story%29%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%3C%5C%2Fi%3E%2C%20so%20it%27s%20very%20clearly%20a%20part%20of%20Series%202.%20TRB%20was%20production%20block%201%20of%20series%203.%20VOTD%20was%20production%20block%201%20of%20series%204.%20This%20production%20reality%20is%20carried%20forward%20into%20the%20DVD%20releases.%20So%20I%20really%20don%27t%20see%20any%20problem%20considering%20any%20of%20these%20Christmas%20specials%20as%20a%20part%20of%20the%20series%20during%20which%20they%20were%20produced.%20Historically%2C%20the%20first%20three%20Christmas%20specials%20will%20be%20remembered%20as%20the%20start%20of%20seasons%202%2C%203%20and%204%20%5Cu2014%20because%20that%27s%20how%20they%27ve%20been%20marketed.%20Happily%2C%20the%20marketing%20actually%20agrees%20with%20the%20production%20realities%20on%20these%20three%20specials.%5Cn%5Cn%3A%3A%3A%3AIt%27s%20only%20when%20you%20get%20to%20TND%20that%20things%20become%20a%20li%27l%20messier.%20TND%20is%20technically%20quite%20different%20from%20the%20previous%20Christmas%20specials%2C%20because%20it%20%3Ci%3Econcluded%3C%5C%2Fi%3E%20BBC%20Wales%27%20fourth%20year%20of%20producing%20%3Ci%3EDcotor%20Who%3C%5C%2Fi%3E.%20It%20was%20made%20immediately%20after%20%3Ci%3EJourney%27s%20End%3C%5C%2Fi%3E.%20But%20it%27s%20also%20%3Ci%3Enarratively%3C%5C%2Fi%3E%20different%2C%20because%20it%27s%20the%20only%20RTD%20Christmas%20special%20that%20has%20no%20%5C%22present%20day%5C%22%20scenes.%20It%20literally%20has%20nothing%20to%20tie%20it%20down%2C%20save%20perhaps%20a%20passing%2C%20oblique%20reference%20to%20Donna.%20So%2C%20although%20it%20does%20form%20a%20part%20of%20the%20production%20schedule%20for%20series%204%2C%20and%20indeed%20the%20production%20team%20think%20of%20it%20as%20series%204%2C%20there%27s%20no%20real%20good%20reason%20to%20avoid%20the%20marketing%20thing%20here%20of%20considering%20it%20one%20of%20a%20five-part%20series%20of%20specials.%20%3Cb%3E%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BNew%20Earth%20%28TV%20story%29%7CNew%20Earth%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/New_Earth_(TV_story)" title="New Earth (TV story)">New Earth</a>, so it's very clearly a part of Series 2. TRB was production block 1 of series 3. VOTD was production block 1 of series 4. This production reality is carried forward into the DVD releases. So I really don't see any problem considering any of these Christmas specials as a part of the series during which they were produced. Historically, the first three Christmas specials will be remembered as the start of seasons 2, 3 and 4 — because that's how they've been marketed. Happily, the marketing actually agrees with the production realities on these three specials.
It's only when you get to TND that things become a li'l messier. TND is technically quite different from the previous Christmas specials, because it concluded BBC Wales' fourth year of producing Dcotor Who. It was made immediately after Journey's End. But it's also narratively different, because it's the only RTD Christmas special that has no "present day" scenes. It literally has nothing to tie it down, save perhaps a passing, oblique reference to Donna. So, although it does form a part of the production schedule for series 4, and indeed the production team think of it as series 4, there's no real good reason to avoid the marketing thing here of considering it one of a five-part series of specials. <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%3Cspan%20_rte_washtml%3D%5C%22true%5C%22%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_style%3D%5C%22background%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_attribs%3D%5C%22%20style%3D%7Fbackground%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%7F%5C%22%3ECzech%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20_rte_washtml%3D%5C%22true%5C%22%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_style%3D%5C%22background%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_attribs%3D%5C%22%20style%3D%7Fbackground%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%7F%5C%22%3EOut%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%3ACzechOut%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%3C%5C%2Fb%3E%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%3ACzechOut%7C%3Cspan%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%3ECzech%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%3EOut%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/User:CzechOut" title="User:CzechOut">CzechOut</a> <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%5Cu260e%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%20talk%3ACzechOut%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20%7C%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%20talk%3ACzechOut%7C%5Cu260e%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/User_talk:CzechOut" title="User talk:CzechOut">☎</a> | <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%3Cfont%20_rte_washtml%3D%5C%22true%5C%22%20size%3D%5C%22%2B1%5C%22%20_rte_attribs%3D%5C%22%20size%3D%7F%2B1%7F%5C%22%3E%5Cu270d%3C%5C%2Ffont%3E%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Special%3AContributions%5C%2FCzechOut%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%2003%3A06%2C%20January%2028%2C%202010%20%28UTC%29%5Cn%5Cn%5Cn%5CnBut%20what%20about%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BSpecial%3AContributions%5C%2FCzechOut%7C%3Cfont%20size%3D%5C%22%2B1%5C%22%3E%5Cu270d%3C%5C%2Ffont%3E%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/CzechOut" title="Special:Contributions/CzechOut">✍</a> 03:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)


But what about <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22The%20End%20of%20Time%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22The%20End%20of%20Time%20%28TV%20story%29%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%3F%20That%20is%20a%20Christmas%20special.%20Should%20that%20not%20be%20considered%20part%20of%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BThe%20End%20of%20Time%20%28TV%20story%29%7CThe%20End%20of%20Time%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/The_End_of_Time_(TV_story)" title="The End of Time (TV story)">The End of Time</a>? That is a Christmas special. Should that not be considered part of <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Series%205%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Series%205%20%28Doctor%20Who%29%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20if%20everything%20you%20say%20is%20correct%3F%5Cn%5CnAlso%2C%20the%20narrative%20thing%20is%20a%20load%20of%20rubbish.%20All%20of%20the%20Christmas%20Specials%20have%20been%20the%20direct%20result%20of%20something%20that%20had%20happened%20in%20the%20previous%20finale.%5Cn%5CnFor%20Instance%3A%5Cn%5CnThe%20Doctor%27s%20regenaration%20in%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BSeries%205%20%28Doctor%20Who%29%7CSeries%205%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Series_5_(Doctor_Who)" title="Series 5 (Doctor Who)">Series 5</a> if everything you say is correct?

Also, the narrative thing is a load of rubbish. All of the Christmas Specials have been the direct result of something that had happened in the previous finale.

For Instance:

The Doctor's regenaration in <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22The%20Parting%20of%20the%20Ways%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22The%20Parting%20of%20the%20Ways%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20played%20a%20massive%20part%20in%20The%20Christmas%20Invasion.%5Cn%5CnTorchwood%20%28Series%202%20story%20arc%29%20played%20a%20big%20part%20in%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BThe%20Parting%20of%20the%20Ways%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/The_Parting_of_the_Ways" title="The Parting of the Ways">The Parting of the Ways</a> played a massive part in The Christmas Invasion.

Torchwood (Series 2 story arc) played a big part in <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22The%20Runaway%20Bride%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22The%20Runaway%20Bride%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22.%5Cn%5CnThe%20Master%20turning%20the%20tardis%20into%20a%20paradox%20machine%20in%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BThe%20Runaway%20Bride%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/The_Runaway_Bride" title="The Runaway Bride">The Runaway Bride</a>.

The Master turning the tardis into a paradox machine in <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Last%20of%20the%20Time%20Lords%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Last%20of%20the%20Time%20Lords%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20resulted%20in%20the%20shelds%20not%20being%20up%20which%20is%20hy%20the%20Titanic%20crased%20in%20the%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BLast%20of%20the%20Time%20Lords%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Last_of_the_Time_Lords" title="Last of the Time Lords">Last of the Time Lords</a> resulted in the shelds not being up which is hy the Titanic crased in the <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Tardis%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Tardis%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20which%20led%20straight%20into%20Voyage%20of%20the%20Damned.%5Cn%5CnDavros%20meddling%20with%20the%20universe%20in%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BTardis%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Tardis" title="Tardis" class="mw-redirect">Tardis</a> which led straight into Voyage of the Damned.

Davros meddling with the universe in <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Journeys%20End%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Journeys%20End%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20caused%20the%20Cybermen%20to%20fall%20out%20of%20the%20void%20in%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BJourneys%20End%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Journeys_End" title="Journeys End" class="mw-redirect">Journeys End</a> caused the Cybermen to fall out of the void in <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22The%20Next%20Doctor%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22The%20Next%20Doctor%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22.%5Cn%5CnThe%20Doctor%20realising%20that%20he%20had%20%27gone%20too%20far%27%20and%20his%20vision%20of%20the%20Ood%20prompted%20him%20to%20go%20to%20the%20ood%20sphere%20which%20is%20where%20he%20realised%20what%20was%20happening.%5Cn%5Cn%5E%20Please%20leave%20a%20signiture.%20All%20of%20the%202009%20specials%20are%20officially%20classed%20as%20part%20of%20series%204%2C%20so%20I%20wouldn%27t%20include%20The%20End%20of%20Time%20them%20in%20the%20Christmas%20special%20debate.%20The%20scipts%20refer%20to%20them%20as%20such.%20Series%205%20is%20completely%20sepperated%20from%20the%20specials%20production-wise.%5Cn%5CnI%20think%20Christmas%20specials%20should%20be%20considered%20the%20end%20of%20pevious%20season%3B%20hence%2C%20series%201%20aired%202005%20and%20the%20Christmas%20special%20aired%20Christmas%202005%2C%20series%202%20aired%202006%3B%20therefore%2C%20the%20Christmas%20specials%20are%20the%20end%20of%20each%20series%2C%20just%20as%20they%20are%20aired%20in%20the%20end%20of%20the%20year%20that%20series%20aired%20in.%20Well%2C%20excluding%20The%20Next%20Doctor%2C%20The%20Ends%20of%20Time%20is%20the%20official%20end%20of%20series%204.%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Atrue%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BThe%20Next%20Doctor%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/The_Next_Doctor" title="The Next Doctor">The Next Doctor</a>.

The Doctor realising that he had 'gone too far' and his vision of the Ood prompted him to go to the ood sphere which is where he realised what was happening.

^ Please leave a signiture. All of the 2009 specials are officially classed as part of series 4, so I wouldn't include The End of Time them in the Christmas special debate. The scipts refer to them as such. Series 5 is completely sepperated from the specials production-wise.

I think Christmas specials should be considered the end of pevious season; hence, series 1 aired 2005 and the Christmas special aired Christmas 2005, series 2 aired 2006; therefore, the Christmas specials are the end of each series, just as they are aired in the end of the year that series aired in. Well, excluding The Next Doctor, The Ends of Time is the official end of series 4. <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22Delton%20Menace%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%3ADelton%20Menace%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%2012%3A31%2C%20March%209%2C%202010%20%28UTC%29%5Cn%3A%3AStill%20not%20seeing%20what%20everyone%20is%20so%20fussed%20about.%20%20From%20a%20production%20standpoint%2C%20they%20are%20a%20part%20of%20the%20next%20series%20until%20you%20get%20to%20series%204%2C%20where%20everything%20that%20happened%20in%20late%202008-Jan%202010%20is%20a%20part%20of%20Series%204%2C%20but%20nevertheless%20is%20%3Cb%3Emarketed%3C%5C%2Fb%3E%20as%20its%20own%20series.%20%20%20Our%20measure%20shoud%20be%20the%20DVD%20releases%2C%20which%20%5Cu2014%20until%20the%20oddity%20that%20is%202009%20%5Cu2014%5Cu00a0clearly%20echo%20the%20production%20reality.%20%20No%20special%20in%20series%201.%20%20TCI%20starts%20series%202.%20%20TRB%20stars%20series%203.%20%20VOTD%20starts%20series%204.%20%20TND%20starts%20the%202009%20specials.%20%20It%27s%20easy.%20I%20don%27t%20understand%20the%20controversy.%20%20We%20already%20know%20this%20is%20how%20things%20are%20going%20to%20continue%20in%20the%20Matt%20Smith%20era%2C%20because%20the%20release%20date%20of%20the%20boxed%20set%20of%20Series%205%20precludes%20it%20including%20the%202010%20Christmas%20special.%20%20The%20implication%20is%2C%20therefore%2C%20that%20it%27ll%20be%20included%20at%20the%20top%20of%20the%20series%206%20boxset.%20%20%5Cn%5Cn%3A%3AIf%20you%20want%2C%20look%20at%20it%20from%20another%20point%20of%20view.%20%20The%20last%20story%20of%20every%20series%20has%20always%20been%20called%20a%20%5C%22series%20finale%5C%22.%20%20You%20can%27t%20very%20well%20have%20another%20story%20after%20a%20series%20finale%2C%20and%20yet%20allow%20that%20finale%20to%20retain%20its%20standing.%20%20%20No%2C%20the%20series%20finales%20really%20do%20conclude%20their%20series%2C%20and%20the%20Christmas%20specials%20mark%20the%20beginning%20of%20a%20new%20one.%20%20If%20you%20suggest%20that%20the%20Christmas%20specials%20be%20considered%20the%20conclusion%20of%20a%20series%2C%20that%20would%20mean%20that%20Eccleston%20wasn%27t%20the%20Doctor%20for%20a%20full%20series%20%5Cu2014%5Cu00a0and%20I%27ve%20never%20heard%20his%20tenure%20described%20as%20being%20%5C%22nearly%20a%20full%20series%5C%22.%20%20%20%3Cb%3E%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%3ADelton%20Menace%7CDelton%20Menace%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/User:Delton_Menace" title="User:Delton Menace">Delton Menace</a> 12:31, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Still not seeing what everyone is so fussed about. From a production standpoint, they are a part of the next series until you get to series 4, where everything that happened in late 2008-Jan 2010 is a part of Series 4, but nevertheless is marketed as its own series. Our measure shoud be the DVD releases, which — until the oddity that is 2009 — clearly echo the production reality. No special in series 1. TCI starts series 2. TRB stars series 3. VOTD starts series 4. TND starts the 2009 specials. It's easy. I don't understand the controversy. We already know this is how things are going to continue in the Matt Smith era, because the release date of the boxed set of Series 5 precludes it including the 2010 Christmas special. The implication is, therefore, that it'll be included at the top of the series 6 boxset.
If you want, look at it from another point of view. The last story of every series has always been called a "series finale". You can't very well have another story after a series finale, and yet allow that finale to retain its standing. No, the series finales really do conclude their series, and the Christmas specials mark the beginning of a new one. If you suggest that the Christmas specials be considered the conclusion of a series, that would mean that Eccleston wasn't the Doctor for a full series — and I've never heard his tenure described as being "nearly a full series". <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%3Cspan%20_rte_washtml%3D%5C%22true%5C%22%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_style%3D%5C%22background%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_attribs%3D%5C%22%20style%3D%7Fbackground%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%7F%5C%22%3ECzech%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20_rte_washtml%3D%5C%22true%5C%22%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_style%3D%5C%22background%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%20_rte_attribs%3D%5C%22%20style%3D%7Fbackground%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%7F%5C%22%3EOut%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%3ACzechOut%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%3C%5C%2Fb%3E%20%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%3ACzechOut%7C%3Cspan%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ablue%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%3ECzech%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%3Cspan%20style%3D%5C%22background%3Ared%3Bcolor%3Awhite%5C%22%3EOut%3C%5C%2Fspan%3E%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/User:CzechOut" title="User:CzechOut">CzechOut</a> <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%5Cu260e%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22User%20talk%3ACzechOut%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%20%7C%20%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BUser%20talk%3ACzechOut%7C%5Cu260e%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/User_talk:CzechOut" title="User talk:CzechOut">☎</a> | <a _rte_data="%7B%22type%22%3A%22internal%22%2C%22text%22%3A%22%3Cfont%20_rte_washtml%3D%5C%22true%5C%22%20size%3D%5C%22%2B1%5C%22%20_rte_attribs%3D%5C%22%20size%3D%7F%2B1%7F%5C%22%3E%5Cu270d%3C%5C%2Ffont%3E%22%2C%22link%22%3A%22Special%3AContributions%5C%2FCzechOut%22%2C%22trail%22%3A%22%2015%3A34%2C%20March%209%2C%202010%20%28UTC%29%22%2C%22wasblank%22%3Afalse%2C%22noforce%22%3Atrue%2C%22wikitext%22%3A%22%5B%5BSpecial%3AContributions%5C%2FCzechOut%7C%3Cfont%20size%3D%5C%22%2B1%5C%22%3E%5Cu270d%3C%5C%2Ffont%3E%5D%5D%22%7D" _rte_instance="125-6614626114b96926c19cd6" href="/wiki/Special:Contributions/CzechOut" title="Special:Contributions/CzechOut">✍</a> 15:34, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


Yes, but the finale is the conclusion to the MAIN series, (the main 13 episodes) whilst the Christmas episodes are an add on to that particular series. (I.E: TPOTW was the conclusion to series 1 , whilst TCFI was an extension to Series 1.)

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