Talk:The Dream Lord

"According to the Master, the Valeyard is the personification of all that is evil within the Doctor, estimated to have been taken from somewhere between his twelfth and final incarnations." --94.171.77.82 18:47, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

So as it's the eleventh doctor, we can expressely rule out it's the Valeyard then on the basis of that quote. You can't have the latter part of the quote (the "estimation") being totally wrong, while the first part is deemed correct. It's a total logical fallacy if ever I saw one. Not only that but there's no citation for it being the Valeyard whatsoever in the episode Amy's Choice itself. There's no point speculating or assuming things without full proper sourcing or evidence to back it up. One wishy-washy phrase from the Master in one episode not even from the new series since 2005 just isn't good enough. Blightsoot 18:53, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

The operative word is "estimate". One regeneration off isn't bad. And it is properly sourced and evidenced, you just choose to think of the phrase used as "wishy-washy" and ignore it. --94.171.77.82 19:00, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Dream Lord / Valeyard

So far the doctor regenerated 12 times including the 10th doctors failed regeneration. The valyard was created between the 12th and final regeneration. The doctor is between his 12th and final.

The Dream Lord isn't the Valeyard, but is essentially the same forces that would later become the Valeyard. The Valeyard had a physical form, the Dream Lord didn't. So the Dream Lord isn't the Valeyard; but the forces that created him will later manifest as the Valeyard. And there is a difference between "regenerations" and "incarnations". --TemporalSpleen 19:12, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

That would seem to make sense. I like how you summed it up. My personal opinion is that the Doctor did think at first that the Dream Lord was the Master. "There's only one person in the universe who hates me as much as you do." However, this episode seems to imply (rather disturbingly) that the Doctor himself might also fit that criterion. Does the Doctor actually despise himself, deep down? It fits in with what we've seen of his personality so far - always running, afraid to face his own guilt... Bluebox444 01:03, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Nascent Valyard, "version 0," makes sense, colored by the self-knowledge of the Valeyard that that part of himself may break out in the future. Bluebox, when the Doctor says there is only one person, he clearly means the Master, but there's a beat a the Dream Lord look back as if to say "No, two." I think the Doctor genuinely does hate himself; he committed genocide during the Time War and he's been running from confronting that ever since. The End of Time just dragged it all up again. -207.224.87.238 04:45, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Not just from the Time War... more recent realizations have likely exacerbated that self-loathing: coming face to face with the truth of how it affect his companions when he leaves them, his own arrogance driving Adelaide to suicide, even Rory's accusations in the last episode that he's dangerous to those he meets because they don't want to let him down. There's a lot of darkness churning in the Doctor's subconscious. The Dream Lord and the Valeyard are different streams running out of that same source. Eregor 19:14, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it works that the Doctor initially thinks the Dreamlord is The Master. First of it doesn't really seem like The Master's MO, especially since the only thing the Dreamlord is attempting to gain is victory over the Doctor. While the Master often deliberately seeks the Doctor out to get him out of the way the Master has NEVER enacted a plan that did not stand to benefit him more than simply gaining vengeance against the Doctor, he is always out for power and domination in some form or another(hence the name). Second, while Timelords are depicted as quite potent telepaths even the Master isn't THAT powerful and the Doctor would know that. Third, and most importantly, the Master's feelings towards the Doctor are considerably more complex than simple hate or loathing. Besides, given recent events(namely The End of Time) and established characterization in the new series(of incarnations 9, 10, and 11) the Doctor loathing himself fits in perfectly with his personality and the Doctor has always had a dark side that does come out occasionally and even The Master is frightened of what the Doctor would do if he ever let go of his morality.Doorofnight 07:07, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

It could be possibly that it can possess bodies so it could become the Valeyard in the future Darkraider09 19:18, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

- I agree with Eregor here, that was part of the impact and depth of this episode - once we know the Dream Lord is a manifestation of the Doctor, it makes the expression of self loathing (particularly his earlier revelation of knowing the Dream Lord) quite disturbing, adding new dimensions to this Doctor's personality. At the end Amy says something to the effect of 'you don't really believe those things, do you?' to which he doesn't answer but as usual tucks it away, suggested in the appearance of the reflection at the end. After the big splashy 'arrogant god' stuff and survivor's guilt with the Tenth Doctor, this Doctor seems to be dealing most with issues of his own personality and life choices. DreamSong 21:46, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Race

Due to the fact that the Dream Lord is a mental embodiment of the Doctor's dark side, wouldn't that make him, at least essentially, a Time Lord/Gallifreyan? At least a dream one. Adam 148 20:47, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

The article on The Watcher classifies his species as "Gallifreyan Time Lord (special case)," I imagine the Dream Lord would fall under the same classification. -207.224.87.238 04:54, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

A little editing mistake in a recent revision and wrong info

There is a sentence fragment in the second to last paragraph: "Whether or not he had been truly defeated at the end of his debut is open for interpretation, as he was seen smirking at the Doctor at the end in the latter's reflection. Amy and Rory." - 'Amy and Rory' should be deleted here and added back to the end of the second paragraph in the profile section "...seemingly killing himself, Amy and Rory" DreamSong 21:24, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Also, the information recently added "(Actually, the Dream Lord had created both realities and they still resided in the TARDIS, which did face the danger shown in the second dream.)" is not accurate, as both were dreams, there never was a cold star, they were all asleep on the TARDIS. DreamSong 21:33, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Not to be rude but why don't you edit it yourself? You've probably spent more time telling us about the problem than you would have done by fixing it. Mc hammark 21:36, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

looks like I need something to eat, fast, to give my brain some fuel! (I wrote the offending passage.) also, what the previous poster said.--Stardizzy2 21:43, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

I would have, but am prevented from editing semi-protected articles, so have to post the suggestions here, perhaps it is because I am brand new the site - BTW I wrote quite a bit of this entry prior to it being protected - I had no intention of coming across as a niggler about this or anything, if so I apologize DreamSong 21:49, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Correction - the page is in fact 'locked' and therefore I guess only an editor can fix those bits, hopefully one will look at this talk page DreamSong 06:55, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think when you're in your first few days, semi-protected articles show up as locked, and you get an inaccurate error saying you should create an account or log in even though you already have. (Unfortunately, while I was trying to figure out exactly what was going on, it suddenly stopped happening, and I could edit everything, so all I can do is guess that there's a sort of "probation" state for a few days.) --Falcotron 01:04, June 1, 2010 (UTC)