Forum:References to BFDWU as alternate or diverging timeline

Forums → Archive index → Panopticon archives → References to BFDWU as alternate or diverging timeline

This thread has been archived.

Please create a new thread on the new forums if you want to talk about this topic some more.
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.

As Doctor Who Unbound content has the {{notdwu}} header and set outside the DWU, is it good form to refer to these what-ifs as alternative versions or alternative timelines as in-universe wording? Should these versions be mentioned at all on "main" pages of the subject? -- Tybort (talk page) 12:29, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Could you give an example of the sort of page where this is happening? —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 19:39, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, Ross Brimmicombe-Wood. -- Tybort (talk page) 20:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Well, I think we have three options: one, we find some official source (e.g. Big Finish promotional material, DWM, a quotation from the writer) which describes either this Unbound or all the Unbounds as an alternative timeline — in which case we might want to reconsider the {{notdwu}} template, as it might be considered equivalent to the timeline seen in Turn Left; two, we move the "alternate" material to a "behind the scenes" section and reword accordingly ("Brimmicombe-Wood first appeared in the Doctor Who Unbound story Sympathy for the Devil, in which he was portrayed as the leader of UNIT..."); or three, we create a separate page for the Unbound version of the character (presumably called Ross Brimmicombe-Wood (Sympathy for the Devil)?) and explain the history in a behind-the-scenes section in both articles. My preference would be for the second option, as it would avoid unnecessary duplication, but I suppose that the third option would be most in keeping with the strictest interpretation of policy. —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 21:25, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, actually, I'm leaning towards 2 AND 3. Include a behind the scenes reference, but with a link to Ross Brimmicombe-Wood (Sympathy for the Devil). The wording on Big Finish's site calls them "what-ifs", which sounds like it belongs completely outside the DWU, but I'd like to hear more from people who actually know more than I do about Big Finish before jumping to that conclusion.

For comparison, here are more references to "alternate timelines" to possibly put my point across better: Thalek, Mao Tse-Tung and Silurian. -- Tybort (talk page) 21:40, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Perhaps we should deal with this on a case-by-case basis. See, I can understand the rationale for creating Ross Brimmicombe-Wood (Sympathy for the Devil), but Mao Tse-Tung (Sympathy for the Devil) seems like overkill, considering that he didn't even appear in that story — the Doctor just mentions him. I think that could go into a BTS note. Silurian is trickier, since there are already several "official" alternate timelines featuring them. Not sure about that one. —Josiah Rowe ^{talk to me} 21:59, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Big Finish describes the Unbounds "alternative realities". Which can mean anything.

I think we should look at how our in-universe articles deal with the two flavours of "alternative timelines/universes".

We've got alternate timelines and parallel universes.

• An alternate timeline is created through the actions of a time traveller or other temporal phenomena. So this is a divergence from the "true" timeline. So; Donna's World via the time beetle.
• A parallel universe is where histories diverge, the "Inferno universe" is a parallel universe.

However in a lot of the cases of the Unbounds it seems the fundamentals of their universes are different from the DWU. Deadline, Exile and Auld Mortality/A Storm of Angels all seem to change fundamentals of the DWU to create their Unbound universe.

Using the parallel/alternate universe definitions we can try and work out what sort the Unbounds are;

• Auld Mortality/A Storm of Angels isn't either a parallel or alternate universe. This universe is much more than just a divergence.
• Sympathy for the Devil/Masters of War is a parallel universe one where the Doctor wasn't UNIT's advisor. Although it's also an alternate timeline where because of the Time Lords (temporal manipulation) he didn't show up in time.
• Full Fathom Five isn't either. And there's just not enough information to make a judgement.
• He Jests at Scars… This appears to be an alternate universe.
• Deadline again is neither.
• Exile again neither.

So out of all the Unbounds I can see only 2 clear alternate universes; the Sympathy for the Devil universe and the He Jests at Scars… universe.

We could treat these two as actual parallel universes, and the rest as just notdwu. Or we could just disambiguate everything for each Unbound story, notdwu tagging all of the disambigged pages. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:15, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Continued

Reviving this topic for more input on Tangerine's suggestion on Sympathy/Scars (and references to minor background figures that also have a DWU equivalent, like Mao). As the revised version of Tardis:Valid sources says that the Unbounds full stop are out of bounds, should those two be counted as alternate universes? -- Tybort (talk page) 02:17, July 29, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, I didn't see this thread before I returned to completing the T:VS work. Thus, the version as of today is not, in my mind, "revised". That implies that it's version 2.0. It's merely the completion of version 1.0.

I'm not sure why we're even contemplating a re-debate of this issue. Unbound is obviously, explicitly set outside the DWU. It's not an alternate universe, in the vein of The Infinity Doctors or Pete's World. Please don't make this more complicated to explain to new users than it needs to be. It's really splitting hairs to suggest that this part of BFDWU is {{notdwu}} while this other part is an alternate universe within the DWU.

The very clear authorial intent is that they're all "what if" stories, and therefore {{notdwu}}. The reason we treat Infinity differently is because the authorial intent is confusion of the issue. There's no confusion with these stories: they're meant to be outside the DWU. That's why they're called unbound — as in "not bound by continuity".
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 03:34: Mon 30 Jul 2012 

It wasn't really my intention to question / bring confusion to our previous discussions.

I was more…running with what Tybort and Josiah Rowe had said and thought experiment musing on which could possibly be used, based on our other articles.

The least confusing option is to create disambigged article pages for anything that takes place in the specific Unbound universe. That way we've got firm separation of the DWU from any other universes. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:39, July 30, 2012 (UTC)