Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes/The Almost People

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This page is for discussing the ways in which The Almost People doesn't fit well with other DWU narratives. You can also talk about the plot holes that render its own, internal narrative confusing.

Remember, this is a forum, so civil discussion is encouraged. However, please do not sign your posts. Also, keep all posts about the same continuity error under the same bullet point. You can add a new point by typing:

* This is point one.
::This is a counter-argument to point one.
:::This is a counter-argument to the counter-argument above
* This is point two.
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::Further discussion and query of point two.

... and so on. 

• How could Madame Kovarian acquire the flesh technology?

Madame Kovarian is from the 52nd Century so Flesh technology is probably common by then.

• Does The Doctor now know about his death? Towards the end the ganger Doctor says "this is my death i suppose" or words to that effect, to which the real Doctor replies "only this time we're not invited". The Doctor appears to know about his death after Amy told the Doctor she had seen it, in the scene where Ganger Doctor talks about the eyes asking "why?" when gangers are "executed". How does the real Doctor know about his death? If the shoes were already swapped at this point then this would explain it, however The supposedly ganger Doctor then gets angry at Amy due to sensing the flesh wanting revenge, the supposedly real doctor feels the same but not as strongly, so have they infact not swapped at this point? This would mean the ganger Doctor would have to have told the real Doctor what Amy had said.

The Doctor was trying to see if Amy treated him and the ganger differently so his outburst could just have been an act to convince her he was the ganger. Presumably they swapped shoes very early on.

The original Doctor does seem to have been the one Amy told about his death. In the Ganger Doctor's final moments with the real Doctor, the former talks about his death and the latter comments about it not being one he was "invited to". His earlier outburst could have been to continue the ruse that he was a Ganger being influenced by the Flesh, or he genuinely felt something about Amy not telling him before but being willing to tell his Ganger just so he could sacrifice himself for the 'real' Doctor. After all, he was trying to make a point about both Doctors being equal.

Yes, she told the original Doctor. They quietly switch shoes early on, right after Ganger Doctor stabilises. The Doctor's outburst later appears to be a genuine result of him very strongly feeling the outcry from the Flesh. He apologises to Amy after they rejoin the others, and the Ganger Doctor refers to feeling the outcry form the Flesh just 'not as strongly as you'.

Actually, they need to switch after the conversation about "Yowza". The optimum time is while they were popping about fixing the communications console.

There doesn't appear to be any need that they switced after the "yowza" conversation. Before works just as well. However, it doesn't really matter either way.

• The Doctors appear to be sharing the one sonic screwdriver in all of their scenes together. But when Doctor #1 is knocked unconscious, and Doctor #2 is locked in the acid room, they both have screwdrivers.

We have seen the Tardis "create" a new screwdriver from the console in the eleventh hour, perhaps this happened during the cut between scenes

When the Ganger Doctor was created, so were a copy of his clothes and perhaps the screwdriver.

No, because the 'real' Doctor threw his Ganger the screwdriver at the end

The Doctor has two screwdrivers? The shark-bitten one from "A Christmas Carol" which has been fixed, and a brand new one.

No, the shark bitten one stayed in the shark. The TARDIS has the ability to make new screwdrivers, but neither Doctor had access to the TARDIS until a lot later on.

Just because they do share the Sonic Screwdriver, and that's what we see, doesn't mean another one wasn't created.

The Doctors are also seen to pass the screwdriver between one another when they are repairing the tracking console.

We don't have 100% proof to say that the half inside the shark was there by the end, but it seems likely. I believe when the Doctor was copied the screwdriver was also copied, and they just happened to be sharing the same one because they could, assuming they were actually sharing and one wasn't just fiddling with the other's briefly for some reason. By the end, both screwdrivers would have returned to their owners.

There are two Sonics. The Ganger Doctor had duplicates of everything the real Doctor had on him when it copied him. He gave the flesh Sonic back to him during the final escape.

(WRONG)

There can't be any unseen scene where the Doctor creates a second sonic because the TARDIS is stuck in the ground for this entire sequence of events. Any sonics had to already be on the real Doctor's person from the start or be duplicated by the Flesh. Duplicated sonics doesn't really solve the issue either as it just leads to some confusing scenes. This is what we saw: Ganger Doctor threw a sonic to real Doctor, they then each use a sonic on their respective missions (real Doctor's sonic usage actually having a purpose, Ganger Doctor's not being important to the story), then at the end real Doctor throws a sonic to Ganger. Either Doctor had two sonics with him initially (a spare on the off-chance he would be duplicated by the Flesh he was investigating and it wouldn't duplicate his sonic?), and somehow they both end up in Ganger Doctor's possession so he can throw one to the real Doctor while keeping one himself. That really doesn't make sense, especially since at the end the real Doctor returns the second sonic to Ganger Doctor. So what if the sonic was duplicated? That makes a little more sense that Ganger Doctor ends up with both before returning one to real Doctor; they could have been furthering their switch deceit by pretending they only had one between them, to give the point of 'real' Doctor's absolute trust in 'Ganger' Doctor more emphasis. But that still doesn't explain why real Doctor returns the second sonic to Ganger Doctor at the end! So none of the solutions presented so far work. I've got two possible solutions that I think take into account everything we saw: The most likely is that the script only ever called for one sonic, but Matt Smith never bothered emptying his pockets between scenes. The only scene with a 'second' sonic is when Ganger Doctor briefly analyses the acid to say it is overheating. My guess is that Matt regularly improvises sonic usage in Doctor Who scenes like this one and with the scenes shot out of order everyone just forgot he didn't 'have it' in that particular scene, until it was edited and was too late or expensive for a reshoot. (THIS IS THE CORRECT ANSWER)

The doctor gave ganger doctor his screwdriver but later they both had screwdrivers. Further on the doctor gave ganger doctor another screwdriver! Why?

The sonic got duplicated, just like everything else attached to the doctor when he scanned the flesh. they threw the sonics arround to disguise the fact that they had two. at the end, the doctor throws the real sonic to the ganger doctor, who then got dissolved. the real doctor then brought the flesh sonic into the tardis, where it stablised and then he keeps using it for the rest of the episode/season. he may have gone back off-screen to retrieve his sonic between episodes 6/7 while checking if there was any possibility his ganger had survived and could be recruited, but it doesn't matter if he didn't. all that matters in the end is that the sonic was duplicated and the real doctor used a stabilised flesh one later.

The one addendum to make is that the real Doctor may have very well given Ganger Doctor his Ganger screwdriver back (and probably did). But again, it doesn't much matter either way.

• IIUC... the Flesh duplicated the Doctor, clothes and all, from the last time it "read" him. So, when the start work on the comm console there is a sonic screwdriver and a Ganger sonic screwdriver. I've got a feeling that they juggled it so that everyone thought there was only on and the Ganger Doctor, posing as the original, wound up with both. One, likely the original, was given back to the "Ganger" Doctor for the search for Rory. Hence both Doctors have one during the bulk of the episode. When leaving the acid mine, the Doctor likely gives the Ganger Doctor the original and leaves with none. The reasoning would be that the original would definitely destabilize the Flesh while the Ganger sonic screwdriver might destroy itself before affecting Ganger Jennifer. The sonic screwdriver at the end would be a new one picked up off screen after the TARDIS left the island but before the final scene.

That being said, the screwdriver does seem to dissolved into flesh at the end when activated. It appears to have been the Ganger Screwdriver.

It does seem to dissolve, but we can still blame it on the cgi error, it's easier to assume it just fell on the floor, because otherwise i see no other logical answer to why the real Doctor would give the flesh one his screwdriver in the end. Look:

1) the screwdriver is duplicated, the flesh!Doctor has a flesh!screwdriver and the real!Doctor has a real one.

2) prior to the most of the episode's events, even before the 'yowzah' dialogue and right after the 'they won't trust both of us' dialogue, they switch their shoes, and real!Doctor gives the flesh!Doctor his screwdriver. Flesh!Doctor now has both.

3) bit later he throws a real screwdriver back to the real Doctor in front of everyone - to make them think there is only one screwdriver and he is the real Doctor giving it to the flesh one.

4) now again the real!Doctor has one, real screwdriver, and the flesh!Doctor has one, flesh screwdriver. They split up, Flesh!Doctor stays with Amy and the others, and the real one goes with Buzzer. They both use their screwdrivers separately.

5) They meet in the end, Flesh!Cleaves and Flesh!Doctor decide to sacrifice themselves. The Doctors confess to Amy who is who, now there's no need for any more tricks. The real!Doctor gives his screwdriver to the Flesh.The only reason he would do that (considering that the Flesh!Doctor already has his own flesh!screwdriver) is that the flesh screwdriver is still Flesh and even if it was useful for some things before, it won't be able to melt the flesh - it is flesh itself, so logically it would melt first and wouldn't work to melt anything else. Thus flesh!Doctor has to use the real!screwdriver, and the real!Doctor gives it to him.

6) Now flesh!Doctor has two screwdrivers, one of which is melted with the rest of the flesh, and the other simply falls down when he drops it. The real!Doctor has none.

7) Bit later, after entering the TARDIS with Cleaves, Amy and Jimmy and before Amy's contractions, the Doctor acquires a brand-new screwdriver from the TARDIS and uses it to melt flesh!Amy. fin.

• If the doctor stabilized the flesh, why was Amy still flesh at the end?

I think the difference is that the other Gangers were independent, while Amy's was still controlled by the real Amy. Whether that meant she automatically didn't stabilize, or that the Doctor left her out of the stabilization field, I don't know.

Amy's flesh wasn't sentient as the others had been. She was still connected to it. Thus, it couldn't become human by the Tardis.

The Doctor switches shoes with his Ganger. However when he uses his sonic screwdriver to melt the Ganger Amy his shoes do not melt.

He certainly had time to put on "real" shoes before that, as he was in the TARDIS for some time. It also may be a factor of targeting the signal towards Amy's ganger. Another alternative is that he wasn't setting the screwdriver to "dissolve" the ganger, simply to (as he says) interrupt the signal from Amy to her ganger, thus causing the ganger to lose form and collapse.

• What's the Jennifer chronology? Clearly the "real" one was the one in the courtyard by the flesh pile, but when and how did these duplicates arise exactly? Is the Ganger leader / sad story-telling Jen the same as the quadruped monster? (Does it matter?)

If I got it right... Jennifer lashed up and created Jennifer Ganger prior to the solar tsunami in "Rebel Flesh". The Doctor et al met and interacted with Jennifer Ganger throughout the remainder of that episode and this. At some point Jennifer Ganger murdered Jennifer, likely just be for the Doctor discovers her body. When Rory is following Jennifer Ganger, she set him up by losing him long enough to "birth" Jennifer Ganger 2. The inference is that Jennifer Ganger 2 is the one thrown into the acid pool resulting in Rory believing that Jennifer Ganger is the original. Jennifer Ganger is thus the one that becomes the Ganger monster in the end,

• When the Ganger doctor uses the Sonic Screwdriver to melt himself, Ganger Miranda Cleaves and Ganger Jennifer, why does Miranda's acid suit melt as well? It was not part of the flesh.

Maybe it was part of flesh, cleaves could've touched flesh when wearing acid suit.

Unlikely as there were no acid leaks then.

Maybe so, but we don't know when they duplicated themselves

The Gangers were seen without acid suits and they stole their suits so they weren't part of the Flesh.

It's possible (though not likely) that the acid suit * was* flesh, which the Ganger Miranda put on later. Most likely, it was indeed a genuine production error.

• Assuming the clothes Amy was wearing weren't flesh, they shouldn't have melted either.

Most likely, it was indeed a genuine production error.

It could be flesh because it would explain whys she was wearing the same shirt for every episode.

• If Pond has been substituted by Flesh from the season start, there is a complication due to Neil Geiman's episode being out of the universe and very likely unreachable for technology of Flesh control. After all, it is out of time and space of our continuum.

No one knows exactly how the technology behind the Flesh works. Bearing in mind that Flesh Amy is a more advanced version of the Flesh seen in episodes 5 and 6, it is entirely resonable to assume that Flesh Amy can be controled outside of the universe.

The thing is: enemies, obviosly, have some sort of time technology. And they can send some sort of controlling signal through time. But to reach the House, doctor had to do the usual 'destroy a part of tardis' thing, which is believed to be (as the tardis techonology in its fullness) in Whouniverse unreachable for any enemies other than TLs and Daleks. So, basically, transmitting signal in time (i suppose this is ONLY signal - it looks like transmitting signals through time is not very 'hard' technology - hence all magic cellphones and such) is perfectly fine, but to transmit the signal out of universe you need the technology similar to TLs (Rassilon-level?) and the enemies do not look SO powerful (they have PLAN, no POWER), being stationed in 52 century and such.

There is also a possibility that the Flesh 2.0 has a short term "image buffer" that the sonic screwdriver crash along with blocking the primary carrier wave. Remember, "The Doctor's Wife" is the only episode not to include a peep in by Kovarian. A buffer would explain Ganger Amy not dissolving while the carrier wave was "missing" and Kovarian not being able to "look in".

We should note that the Silence has the knowledge to attempt to create a Time Lord from human stock altered by the time vortex. This means they know of the vortex, and possibly can leverage a technology like the Superphone, which we see in that very episode does not rely on the TARDIS matrix to function.

• If the Doctor believes that the Gangers can co-exist with humans, why does he kill the Amy Ganger? It seems to go against his message during this episode.

Because she wasn't made self-aware like the others, she was basically a vehicle for the real Amy.

And a spy, to boot.

Short answer, he didn't. He just interrupted her signal. She then couldn't retain form, so just returned to her "natural" flesh-state. That flesh was never an autonomous entity. At the end, it's still "alive", just not a copy of Amy.

• The Doctor says "I love a happy ending." But 4 humans and 3 Gangers (5 Including the Jennifer Gangers) died! How is that a happy ending?

Because he saved the world once again, from a Human-Ganger war in this case. Millions could have died if he didn't stop it.

AND all the people he saved really get it - they don't want a war, they think the Gangers deserve a life.

• Despite the fact that the monastery is flooded with gas, Rory and Jennifer never notice it or are affected by it during their confrontation with the Jennifer-Ganger, or their earlier movements through the monastery. They only start reacting as they approach the thermostatic chamber.

The gas is forming where the acid leaks into a particular part of stone, and it is heavier than air, so it sinks to the floor. Rory and Ganger Jenn could simply be in safer parts of the building. Considering that the designers likely would have kept the particular systems that Rory and Ganger Jenn play with away from the possibility of acid damage, that makes sense.

• How did Rory activate the panel? Why would they program it to not accept a flesh handprint, even though flesh becoming sentient was thought to be impossible, but allow any human handprint to be accepted whether or not they're authorized to be there?

The reasoning behind this is probably that if someone isn't authorized to be there, then they're not there at all. As for "not accepting Flesh handprint", it's just that it doesn't work, not that it is specifically not working.

If they programmed it more specifically, they might run into issues with adding new crew or swapping out other crew. Also, it doesn't seem to be considered a strategic weakness before the current issue.

• After the TARDIS dissapears and when Ganger Doctor and Ganger Miranda open the door to confront the Jennifer Ganger creature, you can see the TARDIS is still there, as if it never left. And if anyone gives an excuse saying that it might be still dematerialising, it was not fading away all.

If true, that would be a simple production error rather than a plot hole/discontinuity.

• If the TARDIS can turn Gangers into people, than why didn't the Doctor turn Ganger Doctor and Ganger Miranda into people and than have them use the sonic screwdriver to destroy Ganger Jennifer? That way they wouldn't have to sacrifice themselves to kill Ganger Jennifer. Or why didn't the real Doctor stay back and kill Ganger Jennifer while Ganger Doctor moves the TARDIS, and than just come back and pick up the real Doctor?

Notice he dropped them off before using the screwdriver to expose Amy. It's possible that stable enough to be going on with isn't quite stable enough to withstand the sonic when it's TRYING to destroy them.

• The Doctor determines through TARDIS scans that Amy is actually a ganger controlled from somewhere in the 52nd century, so he visits the 22nd (in think) century to study the flesh in its early days. Before he disconnects Amy, he says he couldn't break it to them over chips because of shenanigans; therefore, he (as usual) did not check the events surrounding where/when he was landing. With this in mind, how the heck did he know about Cleaves' clot, what time the holo-call would come, that there was a solar storm, and what the world's explanation was?

Well, first of all, he knew about Cleaves's clot because he scanned her when saw her having a headache. That one is obvious. He didn't say he couldn't break it to them over chips, he said he was going to DROP THEM OFF for chips, basically he wanted to go there without Amy and Rory and study Flesh by himself. But then shenanigans happened, by which he apparently meant the solar storm. Which means Doctor didn't know about the storm, it just happened and ruined his plan. As for the call - by words 'thanks for booking your holo-call' we can assume that the Doctor secretly booked the call himself planning to show the Flesh their humanity, that's how he knew when it would come.

• Amy acted a jerk, prejudicing. How'd you think she react if someone used this and her recklesness to trust Daleks over the Doctor on her? How'd you think she react if someone accused her of being as a Dalek?