Howling:666
A lot of fan speculation (including on this forum) pointed out all of the occurrences of 666 throughout the last year, arguing that it was an arc word (like Bad Wolf or Vote Saxon), and therefore a major hint to the finale.
And yet, in the finale, there was no Beast. While the Doctor did have a line about how opening the time lock would bring "Hell on Earth, literally" or something like that, the enemies were Rassilon and his council, who have little or nothing to do with the Beast.
But now I'm curious, what were all those 666 references about? Was it just overzealous fans looking too hard? Or RT playing with the fans by giving them false hints? Or a bona fide clue to some secret meaning in the finale that we all missed? Or setup for Moffat, or for RTD's upcoming series of Torchwood? --99.8.229.156 11:19, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
I am fairly sure it's just overzealous fans looking too hard. Zach Schmidt 18:09, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
You mean, the last five years. Every single season has mentioned the number, and Torchwood mentioned the number. It was in The Christmas Invasion, The Impossiblle Planet, Doomsday, very vaugely in The Last of the Time Lords, Voyage of the Damned, Midnight, The Stolen Earth, and Planet of the Dead. It was also in an episode of Torchwood series 1.
Both my friends, random people, and stepdad, pointed out as the series went on, "Why do I keep hearing the Devil's number in Docvtor Who and Torchwood?" It wasn't the last year- the last five years have had the number. From series 1 to Planet of the Dead, the number 666 keeps coming up.
In The End of Time, there was a church scene that mentioned how a demon came to Earth long ago. The chruch dipicted God (who has been mentioned by the Beast), and that was the Beast's intention- he is a demon, and wanted to attack Earth from the skies (space).
But the thing about the number is, it's not just there- it's hidden in every a majoruty of the time. Someone who has close connections to people who get leaked info on what the producers are palnning way ahead mentioned, "Ever wonder why the Beast's number has been showing up many times since the the revival?"
It's what one would call a super-hidden plot device spanning seasons upon seasons. Bad Wolf spanned series 1, 2, 3 and 4, Torchwood spanned series 2, stolen Planets spanned series 4, 666 spanned series 1 to the next series.
Bad Wolf appeared everywhere and spanned 4 entire series- everyone said it meant nothing, and it turned out to be a hidden plot device. The same applies to 666. It has been hinted that it keeps appearing to span the entire series and head on until we finally reach a future finale whenever. Also, another reference was made in Children of Earth to the Beast. Delton Menace 02:46, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
When did the beasts number appear in last of the timelords, the stolen earth, and planet of the dead?
^See what I mean? Just overzealous fans looking TOO hard. Zach Schmidt 02:53, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
I didn't have to look. I noticed like that. Everyone noticed the reference. Well, most fans noticed them. And as I said, it was highlighted that the number kept appearing, and directly hinted that it means something. You're one hell of an idiot. Bad Wolf spanned for seasons, not on thought it meant anything, no one through the stolen planets meant anything. It's always the same. Stop being a closed-minded fool. Delton Menace 03:19, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
Delton Menace, cool you jets. There is no need to call names, it just shows how small your argument is. No need to call me an idiot; it's just a tv show. Zach Schmidt 04:08, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
Well, Bad Wolf was only a hint for the first season, until they explained it; since then, it's just a reference back to what we already know--Bad Wolf Rose left marks all over history just for that one finale, but those marks still exist. Similarly, Torchwood wss only a hint for the second season; now that we know what Torchwood is, it's a reference to something we already know, just like UNIT.
So, if the 666 thing is an intentional hint planted across 4 seasons, and never used, either it'll be one hell of a reveal in season 5, or Steven Moffat will just drop it as a loose thread (as others have often done when they took over as exec/script editor/etc.).
But many of the fans have pointed out that there were specifically a ton of references hidden in season 4, and in the contemporaneous year of Torchwood. Maybe they're all wrong--maybe it's just overzealous fans looking for patterns that aren't there (as Zach says), or maybe it's been there all along and those fans just didn't notice it until season 4 (as Delton says). But if they're right, it should have led up to something, and I'm wondering how we all missed it. --99.8.229.156 06:40, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
Well put. Zach Schmidt
Someone mentioned that they thought that no one believed that Bad Wolf was a reference to anything? I remember, shortly after the episode Dalek, being linked to the Bad Wolf mini-site from the BBC site! Feumas 21:53, February 8, 2010 (UTC)
If the beast was going to make another appearance he would have done so in the end of time. Russel T. Davies wrote the first episode of the first series, when he didn't even know when he would be leaving, Steven moffat didnt know when rtd would be leaving, so why on earth would R.T.D write an episodes containing the number 666 for another writer when the events would be happening years from 2004/5. If the beast was so important he would have been given more than just a double episode and would have been mentioned heavily fairly recently. New writers (some) new production team - no Beast im sorry. Saxon 3 16:52, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
Get rid of that attitude, Saxon3. Are you one of the writers? Are you one of the producers? No. And the Beast was mentioned very recently. Steven Moffat confirmed, too, that he was aware of Russell T. Davies leaving over two years before he left, and he also revealed that he was wanted to become new head writer long before we found out. He said so himself in an interview. To put it, too, one of the series 5 episodes is called "The Beast Below" and the finale is the Beast's quote of being the "heart of darkness". Delton Menace 00:44, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
Why are you so obsessed with this conspiracy, Delton? Wouldn't you prefer to leave it up to Steven Moffat, Doctor Who's best writer? Don't you trust him? I mean seriously, I will make a bet with you that 666 means nothing. I will bet you ten thousand whatever-your-currency-is that this is all a stupid conspiracy that means nothing. the twelfth doctor 18:46, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the twelfth doctor. and what attitude? your just not happy somebody is against you theory, and only the first 3 titles have been confirmed and the beast below is not one of them (so far), but i cant see why R.T.D would put a hint to a monster that wouldnt be created until the second series in to the first episode of the first series.Saxon 3 21:16, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
I am staying skeptical about this. I hope that the villain for the finally is somthing new that we have not seen before, but this is Doctor Who and I will love every second of it regardless. (maybe a little less if it is another Dalek finally). I too have noticed several of the 666 refferences, though, and have read about others on various posts; however, if someone is able compile these references together in order of airdate, it might help this argument.MasterIII 07:05, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
@ Saxon 3: Beast Below is a confirmed title, along with Eleventh Hour and Victory Of The Daleks. Beast Below doesn't mean it has to be the Beast though. the twelfth doctor 11:57, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
Delton Menace, Face it the Midnight Entitys real Identity will never be revealed, just like the Stig from Top Gear 91.104.60.194 16:25, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
I agree that 666 is in Doctor Who all the time. But for example would the beast really use Jethro to scatter his number. And i thought the stig was revealed to be michael schummacer in one of the episodes
Saxon3, part of the fun of being a fan is second-guessing the creators, and part of the fun for the creators is finding clever ways to mislead the fans that will leave them satisfied rather than annoyed once they catch on. Especially for RTD, who was a fanboy nerd as well as a creator. (And, while that may not be true of Moffatt, it's certainly true of Paul Cornell and other regular writers that he's inheriting.) So, don't blame Delton Menace for looking for conspiracies. Some of those conspiracies are true, and some of them are fun even though they're false, and some of them are fun _because_ they're false.
Anyway, if The Beast comes back, that doesn't prove that all the 666s were a sign that he was coming back. In fact, it could even be the other way around--The Beast was just one more part of the same larger theme that the 666s were also part of.
The Doctor, in RTD's last episode, described the Last Great Time War as "literal Hell," and to a large extent, the entire RTD era was about the LGTW.* Everything the 9th and 10th Doctors have been fighting--not just The Beast, but also old enemies The Master and the Daleks--represented the final showdown against Hell on Earth. (Well, not everything--it's hard to fit the Cybusmen or the Weeping Angels into that. But you know what I mean.)
- Surely it _is_ just a coincidence, not a conspiracy, that LGTW looks and sounds so much like LGBT. :) --99.33.25.56 09:49, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
Well if you consider that there are battles in war then it could be the last great time battle (LGTB) close enough.MasterIII 19:25, February 28, 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for any confusion; that was just a bad joke. "LGBT" means "Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Trans," and LGBT issues were a major focus of a former RTD show, Queer as Folk, just as the LGTW was a major focus of this RTD show. I'm sure the writers occasionally chuckle about that, but I don't think there's any intended connection. --99.20.129.165 07:41, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
I knew that...just continuing your thought...I hope that I didn't come off as serious about that. I'm sure that it wasn't intended as a real connection, but it is funny. I belong to the LGBTA community myself and really loved the American Queer as Folk and long for the BBC to release Russell's QAF on DVD here in the states. MasterIII 17:36, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
I'm bumpign this up as an example of Delton Menace's hypocrisy.the twelfth doctor 17:33, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
The problem was people weren't just look for 666s, they were looking for sixes...and there are only 10 numerals, there are bound to be lots of numbers on a sci-fi show...that's like the countdown this year...oh the 1 second shot had 3 things in it...and one of the hands of the clock point to a number...222.166.181.92 15:39, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
The idea of 666 being the devil's number comes from the real world, not Doctor Who. That means that we can assume that most of the character's know that 666 is supposedly the devil's number, so when the Doctor was thinking of something to stop the hosts, or when Jethro is thinking of something to make the midnight entitiy repeat, they are just thinking of a random number. Because they know that 666 is the devil's number it is the first number that pops into their heads. The rest of them aren't really references to the devil's number, and are just occurences of the number 6 repeating. Memory Alpha has similar arguments regarding the number 47. If Davies was setting up some major plot point regarding the beast, it would have happenned before Moffat took over.Icecreamdif 00:17, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
I don't suppose it would do much good to point out that the actual number of "The Beast" is 616 and not 666, as assumed by the vast majority.
As you probably know the reference comes from the Book of Revelations and the earliest known copy of this text (1,700 years old) states quite clearly that the number of The Beast is 616. Due to the vast number of copies, reprints, and translations of the text an error crept in and the number changed to 666 - possibly to suit the agenda of a particular translator or church official. Anyway, if I were the Beast I'd be very annoyed at the fact that virtually the entire Christian world has got my number wrong - perhaps that's why he's so reluctant to show his face as promised... He's probably sulking! ChrisL 08:44, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Is it possible it's just a red herring to throw people off the track.
Apocalypse 13, 18 Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.
The number of the beast is the number of a man. This means that the beast's number is calculated as is a man's number. A man's number consists of three digits; the first is the number of the letters in his name added together and the digits added together until arriving at a single digit. The other two numbers are his date of birth reduced to a single digit, and the day of the week of his birthday.
The beast is not a man. The beast is a symbol of a country imposing tyranny through war over the whole world, or nearly the whole world. Seven countries have done that throughout history since Daniel. These were Babylon, Persia, Media, Greece, Egypt/Syria, Rome, and Germany. Each of the seven heads represents one of these countries. An angel said to John in Apocalypse 17, 10 that five had fallen, one is and the other had not yet come. The one that existed at the time was Rome. The one to come was Germany. This was the head that had the wound of the sword and was killed but rose again with its deadly wound healed.
Germany started World War 1 on August 1, 1914. On this date Germany became the beast. The digits of this date add up to 6 and it was a Saturday, the 6th day. The official name of Germany in German was Deutsches Reich. The letters of this name, using the 30-letter German alphabet, add up to 6. 'Deutsches Reich' is therefore the name of the beast, 'born' on August 1, 1914. This is the answer to the riddle of the 666.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Reich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914
Germany rose again restored and re-armed to launch World War 2. This beast made everyone worship the first beast, the glorious military heritage of the Fatherland. This nationalism was perhaps more effective motivation than the personalities of the Kaiser or Hitler, but swearing allegiance to either Germany or Hitler was to put it or him before God. This is what is meant by the mark of the beast in Apocalypse 13, 16,17. The forehead represents the mind, or belief; the right hand represents the will or the choice, the authority of a man. If Hitler couldn't make everyone believe in his fascism then he could still make them obey.
In Apocalypse 13, 15 it says that it was permitted that life should be given to the image of the beast that it could both speak and cause for people to be killed who wouldn't worship the beast. This was the advent of motion pictures and the Nazi propaganda films. People went along with it all, and anyone who wouldn't was an enemy of the state. The things that the Nazis did should make it obvious that this was the beast's dark kingdom.
The events depicted in Revelations, when one understands the meaning of the various symbols, corresponds to the first and second world wars, the restoration of Israel, the cold war, and apparently the second coming of Christ is still to come.
In light of this number of the beast turning out to be real, it is fair to say that John really could see the future almost 2000 years ago and that this is proof of God.
The Apocalypse is supposed to have been written in 96AD, which was 1914 years ago. I, Dominion, wrote this on Boxing Day 2010.
