Howling:The little girl is Lucy Saxon?!?!

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According to IMDB , Sydney Wade, who played the little girl in the first two episodes, will be playing "Young Lucy Saxon / Cole" in A Good Man Goes to War. (At first it just said "Lucy Cole", which only the diehard fans would remember was her maiden name on the Vote Saxon website, but someone updated it to make it explicit.)

On top of that, Alexandra Moen, who played Luxy Saxon in The Sound of Drums and The End of Time, is credited as "Lucy Saxon", which implies that this isn't just some other person who happens to have the same name.

This raises a lot of questions. But first, the most obvious: What are the odds of this being correct? I'm guessing they're pretty slim. Alexandra Moen's publicity website doesn't list a 2011 credit as Lucy Saxon And IMDB has had a lot of nonsense in the past. So, does anyone have any other evidence of this? --99.33.26.0 01:59, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

PS, IMDB also lists Catrin Stewart as playing "Jenny". And Catrin Stewart's publicity site does list a credit as "Jenny" in Doctor Who, 2011. And the link on the character on IMDB goes to the Doctor's daughter Jenny. And it makes sense that they'd have to replace Georgia Moffet, being that she was noticeably pregnant during the filming of this episode. However, the link on Jenny the maid from Human Nature also goes to the same page, and obviously they're not the same character, so it's easily possible this is just yet another completely different character with the same very common first name. Plus the usual "IMDB is full of nonsense". But again, if anyone has any evidence, I'd love to hear it. --99.33.26.0 02:04, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I doubt that the little girl is Lucy Saxon, because I don't think that Moffat would want to bring up such a random plot point from the Davies era. Apart from that, although there was a lot left unexplained regarding Lucy's character, it didn't seem like there was anything particularly special about her. It seemed like she was just an innocent Human who the Master corrupted and abused, who later betrayed him. She also talked about her father in both episodes, and based on what we know about the girl so far, which is admittedly not a lot, she wouldn't have a father who knows she exists in 2008. It also isn't likely that Jenny will be returning played by a different actress. In The Doctor's Daughter they went out of their way to explain that Jenny couldn't regenerate, and when she did come back to life her appearance didn't change, so if they brought her back it would make more sense to keep the same actress.Icecreamdif 04:19, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think you don't actually watch the show, or read the posts you reply to.

They never went out of their way to explain that Jenny couldn't regenerate, or anything like it. In fact, they established clearly that she had Gallifreyan physiology; the only way in which she wasn't a Time Lady is that "A real Time Lord is so much more... a sum of knowledge, a code, a shared history, a shared suffering". The Doctor clearly expected that she'd be able to regenerate when she was shot. After she didn't do so right away, he guessed (actually, Martha convinced him) that for some reason she couldn't--but then he also guessed that she couldn't come back to life in any other way. He was obviously wrong about one or the other.

As for which one, we don't really know. In Confidential and later interviews and writings, RTD was always coy about it. He said that it wasn't "necessarily" regeneration; he once called it "rejuvenation"; he explained how they intentionally shot it in the style of the TV movie regeneration instead of the new series to keep people guessing.

As for why they'd have a different actress play her, I already explained above that Georgia Moffet was noticeably pregnant, so if they wanted to bring her back they wouldn't have much choice--unless they wanted to give the Doctor a new granddaughter.

I still don't think it's likely, for the reasons I gave above (mainly, no good evidence)--but it's not impossible, and coming up with "proofs" that have nothing to do with reality is just silly. --99.33.26.0 06:28, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

PPS, here's the link that shows that Catrin Stewart is playing a character named "Jenny" on Doctor Who. Again, the only evidence I've seen that it's the same Jenny that Georgia Moffett played is the fact that IMDB linked both characters, along with the maid from Human Nature, to the same character page, which doesn't prove much of anything. (Someone on one of the blogs also pointed out that she looks kind of Matt Smith-ish, in the same way that Georgia looked kind of David Tennant-ish. I'm not sure I see either resemblance, but I guess this proves that Matt will dump his girlfriend and marry Catrin, right?) --99.33.26.0 10:25, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

How I like to think of Jenny's physiology is like this, when she died she wasn't all Time Lord like the Doctor said, but when the Source enabled her to regenerate (It said the source did this in a ref book, im not just clutching at straws here), it corrected Jenny's biology to make her 100% Time Lord. --Revan\Talk 12:25, May 9, 2011 (UTC)

They did go out of their way to explain that she couldn't regenerate. Martha specifically said that there was no sign of regeneration, and I'm sure that they confirmed that Jenny was dead before the Doctor left. Timelords have never been shown to stay dead for that long without regenerating, except for the Seventh Doctor, who was prevented from regenerating due to the anasthetic. I don't remember Jenny being given anesthetic at any point in the episode. They could have given Jenny a normal regeneration if they wanted to recast her, but they specifically showed her coming back to life without changing her face.Icecreamdif 02:04, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Icereamdif: "Martha specifically said that there was no sign of regeneration..." The fact that Martha had to convince the Doctor that she wasn't regenerating is pretty good evidence that they thought she could. At any rate, all of the quotes from RTD make it clear that they deliberately left open the question of whether that counts as a regeneration. So you can come up with evidence arguing both ways, but if there's any "proof" in either direction, either you're wrong, or you found an error in RTD's writing.

"They could have given Jenny a normal regeneration if they wanted to recast her, but they specifically showed her coming back to life without changing her face." That's because in 2008 they didn't want to recast her. But if they wanted to use her in 2011, they wouldn't have any choice--again, very pregnant.

Revan: "when she died she wasn't all Time Lord like the Doctor said..." He was agreeing that she was all Time Lord biologically, but claiming that her personality, training, ethics, etc. made her not count as a Time Lord. Read the quote above, or watch the episode.

Anyway, Moffat could come up with some convincing explanation for a regenerating Jenny if he wanted to, and he could come do the same for Lucy Cole, but both seem like things he'd be unlikely to _want_ to do. I won't argue any more on any of those points.

The question I'm asking is: Is there any evidence out there beyond the never-very-trustworthy IMDB pointing to either of them returning this season? --99.33.26.0 03:36, May 11, 2011 (UTC)

I don't even think Moffatt has to come up with an answer -- after all, it takes place offscreen. Boblipton 19:56, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

Checking back on IMDB a few times: The little girl's character disappeared completely, then came back as Lucy Cole, then changed to Little Girl, then disappeared again. And meanwhile, Jenny is still there and linked as the same character to both the Doctor's daughter and the Human Nature maid. And I haven't found any evidence anywhere else about either character. So, the best guess is still, as I initially suspected, that at least one IMDB user is an idiot or a troll. --99.170.145.26 02:52, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

IMDB. The biggest, trolliest site known for lying about casting. They say the most random of characters are returning for just about every episode prior to it airing. Like the Rani being in The Waters of Mars, Romana being in The End of Time, Adric being in A Christmas Carol, and many more. How anyone still believes the rubbish that site says is beyond me... Lucy Saxon is the little girl, really? No offence - but anyone who believes IMBD is either very ignorant, or new to the Internet. It's the most unrelibale, falsely editied by everyone and their dog casting site I have ever seen. It's the central of troll activity. The problem is, one they give even one bit of false information, it spreads to other websites and ignorant people claim it's a fact because "IMBD says so," it become an "official" rumour that probably ends up down as a rumour on a Wiki page on here.rumour. Gotta hate that website. 90.199.247.156 19:13, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

If you read the threads above, nobody is saying that IMDB is trustworthy. The whole point of this post is to find out if there's any real evidence, or even rumors, for either of these castings, or if they're just the usual IMDB nonsense. So, you don't need to convince anyone that IMDB is not a reliable source. (By the way, Combom did mention the Lucy Cole thing--but he also was asking whether there were any sources or even rumors beyond IMDB.) --99.35.132.17 10:05, May 22, 2011 (UTC)

Missed trick with Young Lucy Saxon/Cole: In Gallsworthy's Forsyte Saga, there's a character named "Young Jolyon" who's the son of "Old Jolyon". "Young Lucy" may not be the Lucy we've already seen as a young girl, she may be that Lucy's daughter, also named Lucy and known as "Young Lucy" to distinguish her from her mother. If Lucy Saxon (nee Cole) from The Sound of Drums/The Last of the Time Lords had a daughter, who would the father be? The Master wouldn't be very tolerant of infidelity (apart from his own), so he would be the girl's father. Young Lucy would be half Time Lord. The Master's wife might quite easily have given her daughter to her family to bring up and the girl might well have used the family surname Cole to conceal her connection with Harold Saxon. Perhaps the Doctor, Amy et al. "rescued" the baby Young Lucy. That rescue would still be in the Doctor's future (as of episode 5) but in the girl's past. This is all speculation/guesswork but it would explain: (a) the girl having a photo of Amy with a baby, (b) the girl having travelled back in time (necessary, if she's Lucy Saxon Junior) ane`1d (c) the girl's ability to regenerate like a Time Lord. If there were a half Time Lord around, the Silence might be very interested in her, too, and able to persuade her the Doctor was her enemy. 21:30, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

That's a great theory. We still don't have any good reason to believe the little girl is Lucy Cole, since the only source anyone's found for it was an IMDB listing that was apparently argued over by two anonymous editors for a couple days and has long since disappeared.... But on the off chance that's true, I'd give your explanation pretty good odds.

Sure, it's speculation and guesswork, but it makes sense, doesn't have any gaps, and doesn't require any implausible facts beyond what we clearly know (except, of course, for the one big one). It also makes for a potentially good story. And it even fits in with, without requiring, various bits of minor background mythology (like the fact that, in all media, half-human/half-Time Lord children are Time Tots if and only if the Time Lord is the father). --99.33.24.89 02:51, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

The one big "fact" we don't know is, I assume, that Lucy Saxon has a child (if the theory is correct). It's certainly something we don't know but it doesn't contradict anything we do know. It would also mean that, in relation to the girl's identity, Amy's possible pregnancy is misdirection, which would be typical of Steven Moffatt. The theory does depend on IMDB having got it right (for once). As the originator of the theory, I'm not going to take that for granted. I'm also not going to assume that, even if the girl does turn out to be the Master's daughter, it was she who killed the Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut. The Master having a daughter but someone else doing the killing would also be typical of Steven Moffatt. I'm going to wait and see. 05:05, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Given what we know now, I'd be pretty surprised if IMDB turns out to have gotten it right--but, if that does happen, I wouldn't be too surprised if your theory turns out right. That's what I was trying to say.

I also agree with you that the little girl's identity may have very little bearing on who killed the future Doctor. Just because two things are mysterious doesn't mean they're the same mystery, and so far Moffat hasn't been one to give us a single simple answer to wrap everything up all at once. --99.33.24.89 06:12, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Leaving aside, for the moment, my "Lucy Saxon Junior" theory, there's something else about the girl that I noticed but nobody else seems to have picked up on. When River said they needed to find the girl and the Doctor agreed but didn't know how, he added, "Anyway, I've the strangest feeling she's going to find us." That means he's spotted something that makes him think a 9-year-old girl is capable of tracking down a Time Lord who wanders throughout time and space in the TARDIS! What has he seen that we've missed? 06:46, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that one is much of a mystery. He knows that the little girl was able to contact President Nixon via the nearest private line, wherever he went, even when he started taking precautions against being reachable. That's a pretty good clue that she's a little better at tracking people than a typical 9-year-old. (Well, as it turns out, it's apparently the suit, not the girl, but that doesn't change anything.)

Think about it this way: The little girl is scared, and keeps wishing she could contact the most powerful man on the planet to help her, so the suit keeps dialing Nixon's private line for her. But now, the Doctor is on the planet, and even Nixon is desperately relying on him, the suit just takes her to the Doctor instead. -99.33.24.89 08:46, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

This comment doesn't get the important point. Yes, the suit could contact the most powerful authority on the planet. However, when the Doctor said he had a feeling the girl would find them, she had already escaped from the suit and, later, instead of looking for the girl, the Doctor left the planet. He knows the girl is important, in connection with the Silence. He knows they ought to find her. He's leaving a job half-done, without seeking the missing information (what the Silence are trying to use the girl for). That's so out of character it only makes sense if he's really, really confident of the girl's ability to find them. It also suggests that he thinks they're not going to learn what they need to know until the girl finds them, rather than them finding her. 13:00, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Just like the pandorica. He didn't go seeking it until he "stumbled" upon the message from River.72.88.128.103 17:01, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Not quite like the Pandorica. He thought he knew the Pandorica was just a legend. He knows the girl is real and has already agreed they need to find her. He just hasn't done anything about it, yet. (Perhaps I ought to say he apparently hasn't done anything about it, yet.) 17:14, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

This isn't the slightest bit out of character for 11. Cracks in the universe, the whole universe is going to blow up, so... Amy, where do you and Rory want to for your honeymoon? We just rebooted the universe, but it's not over, because we have no idea who was behind the whole thing and what "Silence Will Fall" means, so... right, honeymoon planet? The little girl must be important, no idea who she was, so... who's up for a pirate adventure? This is what he does, every 2 or 3 weeks (and in the NSA novels), consistently. This is his character.

Of course it would be out of character for 10. He would have panicked, taken a deep breath, and charged straight into it. But each Doctor has a different way of dealing with imminent danger. 8 would have picked a random location in spacetime on the assumption that he'd probably get lucky and find the answer on the first go. 4 would have gone somewhere random just for the hell of it, maybe muttering to K-9 "I've got all the time in the world to get to it, I've got a time machine" and then kicking him if he disagreed. 3 would have told UNIT not to investigate, then charged to the forefront to bail them out when they ended up staring down a bulletproof monster, figuring out everything he needed to know along the way. 7 would have designed a complicated plan and explained it to his companions in detail--except that it really would have been all a lie to cover the fact that it's all part of an even more complicated plan where he's secretly been one step ahead of the Silence from the start. 6 would have punched something or shouted at someone. 2 would have... actually, done pretty much the same as 11, except with a little more earnest explanation and a little less "I'm dropping you off at the next stop". --12.249.226.210 18:24, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, 11 thought Amy and Rory did have something to do with the cracks (since the explosion was on their wedding day) and he sort of got distracted by the phone call about the orient express to go hunting down the crack origin instead.

On the topic of not finding the little girl right away he has a TIME MACHINE and the Silence were stopped and driven out of human sight so it was not a top priority to go find her (she was no immeadiate threat and was out of harms way).82.11.57.232 12:19, May 27, 2011 (UTC)

That's kind of the point. Every Doctor had a time machine, so there should never be any rush to investigate or take care of things right this second--but all of them sometimes do, and sometimes don't, and each one has different ways of dealing with it.

Well, except 3. He didn't have a time machine, which kind of limited his options. --99.33.24.89 04:22, May 28, 2011 (UTC)

Since the listing of Sydney Wade as Young Lucy Saxon/Cole was for A Good Man Goes to War, we should only have about a week to wait for a reasonable indication whether or not IMDb has surprised us all by getting it right. This, of course, is the first part of a 2-parter, with the summer break intervening, which ought to mean the cliffhanger is a humdinger, as our colonial friends put it. The Master's daughter would fit that but so would all kinds of things we've not thought of for ourselves. Whoever her character turns out to be, I hope Sydney Wade is given much more to do in A Good Man Goes to War and its conclusion, come autumn. In The Impossible Astronaught/Day of the Moon, excluding that closing scene, she wasn't given much. Anyone half-way competent could have done as well. In that closing scene, though, she showed she was a lot more than merely competent. At 9 years old, she could act many so-called "stars" off the screen! 78.146.176.42 16:43, May 28, 2011 (UTC)