Howling:History after the Time Crack
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.
It's been said that a lot of the 21st century alien invasions have been unwritten from time by the Time Crack. So if the Sycorax attack in "The Christmas Invasion" never happened, how do people explain the deaths and Harriet Jones getting deposed? If the Dalek invasion in "The Stolen Earth/Journey's End" never happened, how do people explain the worldwide carnage and destruction that resulted? How does Wilf explain how Donna came back home after travelling with the Doctor? EJA 21:13, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
- Three possibilities:
- 1. The deaths, etc. were erased as well, so there's nothing to explain. We don't have any evidence that, in the world we're watching now, there was widespread destruction in 2009. And there's obvious precedent for this--for example, all the events in Turn Left, the destruction of Gallifrey in The Ancestor Cell, etc. clearly didn't happen.
- 2. There are big gaping holes in history, which anyone who researched them in depth could discover (although due to the usual coverups, loss of information, human capacity for self-deception, etc., it might often be practically impossible to dig that far). This is also clearly how things work in simpler cases. Where were Barbara and Ian from 1963-5? They weren't anywhere. Finally, there are hints of this going on in the episodes--e.g., when Amy is crying in Vincent, there is no actual reason for her sadness, and yet she is sad.
- 3. Time was rewritten to provide other explanations (either as part of the original erasure, or by the rebooting of time, which built the most consistent history possible out of Amy's memories). There are also hints of this one going on in the episodes--most notably in the fact that much of the history of the starless Earth in The Big Bang is the same as ours, even though the causes are obviously different (starting from the fact that none of the people there were made of atoms generated in earlier-generation stars).
- Anyway, each of these, or any combination of them, is consistent with everything we know from on-screen and off, and with reasonable theories of time travel. And there may be others besides. There doesn't seem to be anything to pick one over another. But, as pure fanwanky speculation, here's my personal theory:
- The widespread death and destruction of all of those invasions didn't happen. Many of the smaller effects (like Harriet Jones becoming PM and then falling) are still there, but now have different causes, because the universe was rebuilt backward from 2011 as consistently as possible. But some things still don't fit--probably including much of Jack's history--because "as consistently as possible" isn't "perfectly consistently", and the universe wasn't perfectly consistent even before the cracks.
- Of course anyone who was a time traveler at the time of these events may remember them even though they no longer happened, as the Doctor explains in Flesh and Stone--although it's not guaranteed, as the Doctor explained in Cold Blood. So, we don't know whether, say, Sarah Jane or Jack would remember Journey's End (although it's possible we'll find out in Torchwood). --99.33.26.0 05:29, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
- Does Sarah Jane's personal timeline still include events from the now aborted history such as meeting the Tenth Doctor in School Reunion, and again in The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith? Because if history has changed that much, I don't see how it can be like that. EJA 07:50, May 11, 2011 (UTC)
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- It depends on how much has been erased. If it's only a handful of events, there's no reason to believe that School Reunion or Wedding were among those events. There's only a problem if you think _all_ of history has been rewritten. Which I guess is plausible, but it's much more radical than what the show and Moffat have told us. --99.33.25.110 08:12, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
If the invasions were erased, than Jack would remember them but Sarah Jane wouldn't. Jack is not only a time traveller, but he is out of his own time, like Amy was in Flesh and Stone. Although Sarah Jane has travelled in time before, the alien invasions are part of her time, like Rory was to Amy in Cold Blood. Icecreamdif 01:08, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
It's not about "part of her time", but about being part of her _life_. The Doctor's exact words are, "They weren't part of your world. This is different, this is your own history changing."
Most of the invasions weren't an integral part of Sarah Jane's history. Sure, she experienced meeting the Zygons of Loch Ness or the Krillitanes of Deffry Vale, but in the exact same way that Amy experienced the Clerics and the Angels of the Byzantium. So, she'd probably remember them if they were erased (which of course we don't know they were). On the other hand, if Aunt Lavinia or the Doctor were erased, they were much more intimately connected with Sarah Jane's history, just as Rory was with Amy's, so she probably wouldn't remember them. (In fact, the Doctor _was_ erased at the end of The Big Bang, and I think we can assume that Sarah Jane couldn't remember him--only Amy, with her crack-baby powers and her connection to the reboot, had any chance of doing so.) --99.33.25.110 08:12, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
Ok, so Jack would remember the invasions as we saw them. Question is though, in this new alternate timeline, how do Jack's comrades, e.g. Gwen, remember their days with Jack before the reset? Do they remember the same Jack, or a different Jack? EJA 07:28, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
That's a good question. But remember that Jack's history was already pretty mysterious to his teammates, and all indications are that that's going to become even more true in the upcoming season. Also, they've all been through stories involving history changes, false and removed memories, and massive conspiracies and coverups. So, if Gwen and Jack have different memories about some particular adventure in 2009, for example, Gwen might not be too surprised by that. But it'll be interesting to see how RTD deals with this. --99.33.25.110 08:12, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
