Forum:Is The Forgotten a reliable source?

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I was posting on Talk:Eighth Doctor and I ran across a year-old discussion, which I think still needs to be decided. Here it is:

Okay, this thing's been bugging me for two days now. The Forgotten is mentioned so many times in this article, my head's spinning. A tiny lil 8 page sequence is totally taking control of this article, because people are absolutely desperate for it to be the final, clinching proof that the Eighth Doctor was in the Time War. And at first I thought I'd remembered there was no mention whatsoever to the Time War, and, indeed, there wasn't in the pages that actually feature the 8th Doctor. But then I read on a bit more in the issue and the Tenth Doctor appears to directly tie the Eighth to the Time War. So I rolled back some edits I'd made. But it was still bugging me, because it just doesn't make sense that an American comic book company would decide that they were going to do what RTD has steadfastly refused to do. The BBC still have editorial control over IDW's DW output. Sp I went back and read all six issues, from beginning to end. And here's the thing: the entire thing is a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing. By the time you get to the end, you realize it's all a dream. Throughout the entire thing Ten's having a hard time remembering any of these little episodes from past incarnations, so that right there casts doubt on the veracity of what he's saying. But then when you get to the end, it's not just that he's having a dream, but a dream within the TARDIS' Matrix. You can't trust a damn thing the story says about his past. I mean it's a nice story, a fun romp through nostalgia, but none of it can be thought of as real. So I think we need to strongly consider wholly rewriting that section about the Time War, and possibly eliminate it as a freestanding section. The events of The Forgotten can be in the 'discrepancies' section, or something like that. But the way this article is now gives far, far too much credence to the story. CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 03:00, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

This issue has been covered before. All licensed material is considered to have the same weight, whether it's a comic book or a novel or an episode. If you start picking and choosing, then everything falls apart and we have to disqualify everything that doesn't appear on television. Like Star Trek does. The rule as I understand it - and I believe Tangerineduel will back me up - is unless there is clear contradiction, and as long as it's got licence from the BBC, everything counts. (Exceptions include unofficial works, of course, as well as minor items such as, say, the BBC Writers Comics from the website. Also, occasions in which a story in one medium has been remade on TV - Human Nature, etc. - create a special case where the TV version prevails. This also goes for novelisations, though if you look at regeneration you'll see material from Saward's Twin Dilemma novel, in which he tried to explain how the process works, has been incorporated.) Bottom line is, until the TV series contradicts The Forgotten, then it prevails as the account of record. 23skidoo 00:46, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

I think this discussion ended because 23skidoo kind of misapprehended what I was talking about, and then responded with a statement that's unambiguously true. Of course stories in other media have equal weight. But that's not what I was saying.

My point is that when you read that one story in its entirety, you see that the whole thing is a dream. It is an intrinsic part of the narrative of The Forgotten that we're left unsure about what was real and what wasn't. Thus, it's not a reliable source for its own content — much less for its impact upon the broader DWU canvass. I don't think it gives us anything definitive about, for example, whether the Eighth Doctor was truly in the Time War. But this is the bit that gets mentioned about The Forgotten in a number of places around the wiki — always as if it's the absolute, gospel truth. I think we've largely taken each of these 9 vignettes as a true account of something that happened to the first nine Doctors, but if you get to the end of issue 6, a great deal of ambiguity is narratively cast on whether any of the first 5 issues have been telling the truth at all.

Shouldn't we be a little less certain in our language about the events that are said to have happened to the earlier language? And especially with that most controversial account about the Eighth Doctor's involvement in the Time War, shouldn't we make sure we're couching it the language of, "According to an account that may have been a dream" or "Whilst in the grip of the Matrix" or something like that?
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 17:31:42 Tue 14 Jun 2011 

In "Don't Step on the Grass", the Advocate describes what the Doctor did after the events of the flashback, referencing the device he made in the story and mirroring the Doctor's comments after the 8th flashback in the Forgotten. Therefore the events of the story, or at least that flashback in particular did happen, as they were referenced in a story that wasn't a "dream" as you put it. --Revan\Talk 18:45, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

I can't understand why you see the entire story as a dream either. I understand your point that the Tenth Doctor doesn't have a clue what hes saying throughout alot of the story, but the flashbacks he has are solid memories that are helping him to piece together his own memory. The events in the TARDIS matrix also aren't a dream either, its just an environment within the TARDIS that is helping the Doctor get that bug thing off his head by providing him with the help he needs (e.g. Martha). --Revan\Talk 18:48, June 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's not me saying it's a dream. It's the Tenth Doctor. He explicitly says in panel 2 of page 21 of issue 6, "Look, Toto, it was all a dream."
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 19:24:09 Fri 17 Jun 2011 

And could you point me to this thing in Dont' Step that you're talking about? All I see is this thing in issue 11 where she talks about the Moment — but that's surely a reference to TEOT, not The Forgotten.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 19:35:11 Fri 17 Jun 2011 

"When you turned the key in the lock" from what i recall is the direct reference to The Forgotten. --Revan\Talk 21:37, June 17, 2011 (UTC)

The actual, full line is: "I arrived seconds before you used the Moment. Before you turned the key and locked the war away forever." Fine, there's a bit about a key in the "dream sequence", but this line is completely understandable through just TEOT alone. The Doctor does describe the whole war as being time locked in TEOT. And we know he's the one who locked it. So he did "turn the key and lock it". This line reinforces TEOT. It doesn't positively address The Forgotten at all. Granted, it doesn't contradict The Forgotten, but since the Doctor does explicitly say in The Forgotten that "it was all a dream", then we have to go, I think, to the narrative we know is not a dream: TEOT.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍ 19:23:06 Mon 27 Jun 2011 

But as we all know, the Tenth Doctor does, in fact, have his love of "pop culture" so the line of "Look, Toto, it was all a dream" could just be another pop culture reference. We also know of his use of pop culture to try and make himself laugh or feel better after something emotionally challenging or draining... That being said, "it was all a dream" is probably his way of shaking off that experience. TheTARDIScontroller 20:15, June 27, 2011 (UTC)