Howling:Foreshadowing of Angels Take Manhattan in The Impossible Astronaut

Howling: → Howling archive → The Howling archives → Foreshadowing of Angels Take Manhattan in The Impossible Astronaut

This thread has been archived.

Please create a new thread on The Howling if you want to talk about this topic some more.
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.

I was rewatching The Impossible Astronaut (TV story) and there were a few lines that seem to be throwaway but I think may have relevance for The Angels Take Manhattan.

When the future Eleventh Doctor, River, Amy, and Rory, are picnicking on the shore of Lake Silencio, the Doctor states that "A lot more happens in 1969 than anyone remembers." Since River regenerates in New York City in 1970, it is likely to presume she was in New York City at some point in 1969. This may be a reference to what happens to River in 1969. It is possible that we will see "little girl" incarnation of River in The Angels Take Manhattan as it is set in New York City and features the return of River.

Also, when the current 909-year-old Doctor, River, Amy and Rory are in the TARDIS on their way to 1969, River and Amy are discussing the future Doctor's death. River states "The Doctor's death doesn't frighten me. Neither does my own. There is a far worse day coming for me." Could River be referring to the deaths or loss of her parents, which could occur in The Angels Take Manhattan? We know that this is the final episode for Amy and Rory. Will they leave on their own? Will they be killed? Will they be sent back in time by the Angels? Whatever happens, it is quite possible that this is the "far worse day" that River told Amy about back in Series 6. I know she tells Rory it is the day she encounters her Doctor and he doesn't know who she is. River says she lies. Maybe she is lying. She can't tell her dad that the far worse day is when he leaves her life before he even knows he has a daughter and it is River.

Emersoneells ☎ 06:27, September 26, 2012

I just don't get the impression that River is excessively fond of her parents, at least not enough to call their deaths her worst day. If I understand River's timeline correctly, the River in The Impossible Astronaut has already experienced most of the rest of series 6 and whatever we'll see in series 7, so she's already experienced her parents' deaths. Shambala108 ☎ 14:22, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

The Future Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut is now a Past Doctor, so he wouldn't know anything about The Angels Take Manhattan Yet. He was just referring to everything that happenned in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon. The reason that "a lot more happenned than anyone remembered" was that the Humans couldn't remember the Silence, and forgot that they basically fought a war against them. The "far worse day" already has an explanation, and it wouldn't make sense for it to be Amy and Rory's departure. If Amy and Rory's departure is in River's personal past, then it has already happenned, and it is no longer a day that is "coming for" her. If it is in her personal future, than she doesn't know that it will happen, and wouldn't be talking about it.Icecreamdif ☎ 14:39, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

River's worst day is one we already saw—where she meets the Doctor and he doesn't have any feelings for her. Moffat called their first/last kiss "the central tragedy of River's life" in Confidential.

And I think Icecreamdif is right that "a lot more happened than anyone remembered" was about the immediately following storyline of the Silence and their memory-erasing powers. It's hard to imagine it being as effective a hint toward any other story than that. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 17:07, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

After thinking about it more and reading everyone's comments I believe that we have seen her worst day and that the Doctor was referencing the Silence. But is it possible we may see little girl River in Angels Take Manhattan. It's interesting how River is connected to New York City. When adult River Song was on the run from Canton and the Silence, she was "caught" in New York City. Little girl River fled Florida for New York City where she regenerated although into which incarnation we haven't been shown yet. And now Adult River is reappearing in an adventure with her parents in New York City. The fact that River has had more adventures there (3 counting ATM) than anywhere else seems more than just a coincidence. --Emersoneells ☎ 19:48, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

It's possible, though it hasn't been foreshadowed at all. I heard somewhere that there are old fashioned cars in some of the New York scenes, so it may take place in the 60s. Maybe the Doctor takes young Mels to Leadworth in the 90s in the next episode, though one would think that she would try to kill him if they crossed paths.Icecreamdif ☎ 21:02, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

IIRC, Digital Spy had a picture of 30s cars, not 60s. But then they also teased a line something like "1938? We just bounced off it", so maybe that's not even from the main setting at all. Then again, the whole point of the story seems to be the Angels sending them back in time, so it doesn't seem too implausible that we'll see both 1969 and 1938, as well as 201x and a few other dates. (Although maybe not any dates between 1971 and 2001, because of the whole WTC issue.) --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 02:57, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I haven't actually seen the pictures, I just heard they were old fashioned cars. If this is anything like Blink though, we may see more than one era. If they really need to show the 70s, 80s, or 90s for the episode to work, than they could either just show the WTC as part of the skyline (using old pictures or CGI) and assume that nobody will be offended by that, or just not show the skyline.Icecreamdif ☎ 12:18, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, "anything like Blink" was basically what I was suggesting. And for all I know, there could be both 30s cars, and 60s cars, and 1890s horses; one picture doesn't really tell you that much. (Most of the Digital Spy photos, in both galleries, are closeups of the TARDIS crew or of statues.) --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 16:44, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

I remember on one of the sites that had a "Spoiler-free Review" of The Angels Take Manhattan (having seen the BAFTA screening of it) that in one of the "hints" they gave us, they said "A seemingly throwaway line in The Impossible Astronaut will now make a lot more sense." I haven't actually done any follow up searching to see if they confirmed what they were talking about, but I went back to watch TIA after seeing TATM. My personal favorite line as a candidate for this hint ended up being after the Doctor asked "You think you can just shoot me?" and River, Amy, and Rory bursts through the TARDIS doors. River shouted "They're Americans!" I was always a bit confused by that line, and it had been argued that she was saying it to the Doctor in reference to the agents being Americans and that yes, they WOULD just shoot him. But I still didn't quite agree. Now I'd simply like to believe that it was her actually slipping up and saying that Rory and Amy were Americans. Especially since River could have already known. (Though I do have somewhat of a hard time keeping her time-line straight in my head. She may very well have not seen that yet. Her timeline is clearly not nearly as "front to back" as she claims it is. It's in more a jumbled order that happens to be moving generally backwards from the Doctor's future.) They surely could have been referring to several other lines in the episode, but that's definitely my personal favorite. Saghan ☎ 14:46, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what line they were referring to, but it can't have been that one. River was a doctor and had to break out of prison in The Impossible Astronaut, but she was a professor and had already been pardoned in The Angels Take Manhattan, so the new episode took place later in her timeline. The "They're Americans" line was presumably just a reference to the stereotype that all Americans own guns and will shoot anything given a chance.Icecreamdif ☎ 15:18, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for the correction. Actually, I'm not sure why I didn't catch that myself. This does, however, give me an excuse to watch IA again in an attempt to figure it out. I'm sure somewhere online they've probably said which line they were referencing, but I find it far more fun sometimes to look for things myself the old-fashioned way. Saghan ☎ 15:28, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Not sure if this is what's being referred to, but in The Impossible Astronaut, Amy & River are discussing telling the Doctor about his impending death. River tries to convince Amy it's not possible, saying, "It doesn't work like that. We came here because of what we saw in the future. If we try and prevent the future from happening, we create a paradox." This sounds like the scene in The Angels Take Manhatten with the book and River's broken wrist. Shambala108 ☎ 20:30, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, you may be right about that being the line they were talking about. The only problem I have with that though is the part of the "hint" saying that it was a throwaway line and that it would make more sense after seeing TATM. Her telling them about the manner of a paradox doesn't really feel very "throwaway". It also seems like, while it does somewhat foreshadow TATM, paradoxes had been explained plenty of times in the show and that she surely wasn't purposely cryptically referencing what happens to Amy and Rory, because that version of her didn't know yet, so that's not very specific to have "made sense" only after seeing TATM. We already knew that was true. Even from the events in that very episode/season. Then again, they could have just poorly worded the hint itself, causing my current confusion over which line it could be. Plenty of lines from Impossible Astronaut can connect in some way or another to TATM, so it makes it rather hard to guess at this point. Saghan ☎ 22:27, October 1, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, but after going through the whole episode that's all I could come up with. I'd like to see some of the lines you came up with. Shambala108 ☎ 02:53, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

The "They're Americans!" line is definitely from River to the Doctor about the guards, not to the guards about Rory and Amy. Rory and Amy aren't even outside the TARDIS yet—and as soon as they step out, Rory says "Don't shoot us either" in his English accent.

Anyway, the problem is that this is just a hint from some Digital Spy writer who saw TATM once, hours or even days before writing up the article. Maybe he thought a line from DotM was from TIA, or maybe he just misremembered the line entirely. It wouldn't be the first time; every week people on Combom and a few other blogs and forums discuss those Digital Spy columns and work out what they were talking about, and there's usually at least one that makes no sense. --70.36.140.233^{talk to me} 04:23, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

her worst day is when she goes to the library her final meeting with the doctor,her death

(please remember to sign your posts with 4 ~ or by pressing the signature button above Imamadmad ☎ 02:10, October 15, 2012 (UTC))

I thought her worst day was killing the doctor, the reason she was in the jail. Rasputin Oz ☎ 05:25, October 16, 2012 (UTC)

She tells Rory she's not afraid of dying, that there's a worse day for her coming. He later asks what it is, and she explains it's the day the Doctor won't recognize her. Shambala108 ☎ 13:33, October 17, 2012 (UTC)