Howling:The Silence's war against the Doctor
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.
In A Good Man Goes to War, Madame Kovarian describes the conflict between the Doctor and the Silence as an "endless, bitter war." It's been suggested that this war could go all the way back to the Doctor's first incarnation, but due to the memory-defying abilities of the Silents, he doesn't remember it. What events that occured in the classic series could have been instigated by the Silence to get the Doctor out of the way? 82.2.136.93talk to me 23:19, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
When people see the Silence, they usually get some kind of memory of previous encounters with them, so the Doctor probably never directly faced the Silence in the past. However, given their powers of post-hypnotic suggestion, they could be responsible for pretty much any of the enemies in past episodes.Icecreamdif talk to me 23:40, April 1, 2012 (UTC)
Maybe the Doctor hasn't had these previous encounters with the Silence yet? The man's a time traveller. 94.72.208.131talk to me 12:26, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
Well, I theorise that they might have influenced Queen Elizabeth I's decision to declare the Doctor an enemy, in the hopes that she would capture him and have him beheaded. Possibly even earlier, they may have prompted Marco Polo to try and give the TARDIS to Kublai Khan, as without the TARDIS, the Doctor would be stranded. Perhaps they even had something to do with the Second Doctor ending up in the Land of Fiction in The Mind Robber? 194.168.208.42talk to me 13:03, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
It certainly would be interesting if the Silence have attempted revenge on a previous Doctor, not realising he hasn't met them yet. But the reason behind the Queen's hatred of the Doctor was exlained in "The End of Time". 94.72.208.131talk to me 16:39, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
94, every event that occured in the Classic series is in the Doctor's past. It would seem quite likely that the Silence have had encounters with him in their past, but the question here is has the Doctor encountered him in their past? His trip to the Land of Fiction was already pretty much explained in The Mind Robber and at the end of The Dominators, so I don't see how the Silence could have contributed to that, unless they told the Doctor to forget that he happenned to be on the island. As long as we're just listing random events that they could have been involved in though, maybe they told Davros that pity and emotions weren't an important trait to have in his Daleks, in the hopes that the Daleks would one day kill the Doctor, or maybe they told Rassilon that the best way to make contact with the Master was to drive him insane and turn him into an insane criminal. Literally any irrational action that any character has ever performed could theoretically be a result of post-hypnotic suggestion by the Silence. On the off chance that they do go back and list past episodes and claim that the Silence are responsible, I doubt that they would go any further back than the Eccleston era. This plot arc is convoluted enough without dragging in decades old episodes.Icecreamdif talk to me 17:34, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
I don't recall them explaining Elizabeth I's hatred of the Doctor in The End of Time. The Doctor implied that he'd married her, and that because of him she was no longer truly a "Virgin" Queen, but that was about it. 82.2.136.93talk to me 18:50, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
Well, she probably just got pissed off when he inevitably left her.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:40, April 2, 2012 (UTC)
Well if the Silence have influenced events in the Doctor's past, it seems much more likely they only encountered him when he went back in time. A good lot of the ones on Earth were killed in the 1960s, so the chances of encountering a Silent in modern day episodes are pretty slim, let alone meeting them in the future. 94.72.208.131talk to me 08:54, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
Although the Silents clearly have been active on Earth post '69 to some degree, as one was present at Luke Silencio in 2011. As for Elizabeth I hating the Doctor because he left her, well, it's possible, but IMO, that doesn't completely rule out the possibility of some involvement from the Silents. 82.2.136.93talk to me 09:49, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
I said the chances of meeting a modern day Silent are slim, I didn't say it was impossible. There are even theories that the Silence caused people to forget the 2009 Dalek invasion, but that's for another discussion. 94.72.208.131talk to me 12:36, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
While I'm one of the people whe does not believe that the Dalek invasion was erased, I don't really see how the Silence could be responsible for people forgetting it. Given how we've seen the Silence' abilities work, that doesn't really make any sense. Anyway, since we saw the Silence away from Earth in Closing Time, that suggests that the Silence do have space travel. That means that the Doctor may have encountered them not only on Earth, but on really any other planet, though it would seem unlikely if he was on a planet inhabited by humans from after the year 1969. Still, for all we know, there was a Silence around in the T-mat base during Seeds of Death(or anywhere else in any other episode), and all the human characters took a break from trying to stop the Ice Warriors to kill the Silence on sight, and then the characters and audience just forgot about it. Still, it doesn't really seem likely that the Silence were directly involved in any of the stories before season 4.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:04, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
Between the Davies' and Moffatt' eras, there have been a number of alternate Doctors created, and I'm including that entity in Midnight on the crystal planet; I am wondering if the Silence, Church and the Headless Monks' war has been against one of the alternates, and 11 is getting the blame. We've already seen the mistaken identity card played with that BS' Alliance locking the Doctor in the Pandorica because "Only the Doctor can fly the TARDIS". Torchwood Five 80.4.32.187talk to me 03:00, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
The thing in Midnight wasn't really an alternate Doctor. It was just some random mysterious entity that posessed the Doctor for a little bit. It didn't posess the Doctor for nearly long enough to do any harm, and by now the entity either died with Sky, or is safely back in its natural environment on Midnight. What other alternate Doctors were you thinking of?138.78.102.81talk to me 04:09, April 23, 2012 (UTC)
Hate to open myself for flaming like this, but IMO the Silence and the Question are both complete TV-writer-arse-pulls, which they'll tack explanations onto at a later date. Perhaps. Unless they can convince us that... ooh, shiny! What was I saying?
The tendency seems to be, if they are forced to finish one of their ominous mystery plot threads, that's when they ramp up the music and distract our brains with lots of emotion. I can't tell you how much I hope I'm wrong here, but after Season 6, I no longer believe Moffat has a plan. Agonaga talk to me 14:18, June 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Well, they answered plenty of questions during season 6, mostly about River Song. I'm not sure how far in advance he plans, but he clearly does have some kind of plan. We will almost certainly find out what the Silence and the question are all about, and I hope we find out why the TARDIS blew up. I don't think that Moffat would have introduced the "Doctor Who?" question if he didn't have some idea of how he's going to resolve it.Icecreamdif talk to me 18:59, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
- Tbh I was irritated at how hard S6 was to follow. I'm less irrotated now, though I am still trying to keep certain things straight, like, how the universe can still exist (it was always the Teselecta), why he married River (turn her madness into a ruse? into devotion? to setup the name-whispering moment?), why River's story had to be closed off (maybe not, missing regens and all those dates)... But some eps still seem like either "throw things at wall / hype all things equally / follow up whatever sticks" -- i.e. Rebel Flesh/Almost People, Night Terrors, God Complex, and just tons of lines seeded into eps mentioning literal silence, seeing silence, and the original buzzphrase, "Silence will fall." Aaaanyway I'm excited for next month. The show's still far better now, than seasons 1-4 were. Just certain "normal TV-isms of writing" seem to be getting overused. And I just question how it'll all stand up to fridge logic, when it's all over. Agonaga talk to me 23:19, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
- I liked the first four seasons better, but Moffat's seasons are still good. Season 6 wasn't really too difficult to follow, although it definetly could have been better.Icecreamdif ☎ 11:56, July 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, it could. Too many throw away episodes, too big a hurry to bust out an arc to the point where it seems the show is entirely about the arc. I like arcs and two-parters but if ditching them can lead to more subtlety, I feel like all-in-all the show's had a good track through the whole run. Agonaga ☎ 23:49, July 19, 2012 (UTC)
- To me, a major flaw with Series 6 as a whole was that it combined being arc-heavy with having a hasty (& unsatisfying) resolution of the arc. The Wedding of River Song suffered, I think, from being a one-parter. There was spectacle -- but only briefly. There were surprise explanations -- but they were rushed. It just wasn't a good enough finalé to do the job the series had set it up to do. The series also failed to answer some questions left from Series 5. It's fair enough to leave a few questions from Series 6 to be answered in Series 7; leaving questions from Series 5 to be answered in Series 7 is going too far.
- Some of the episodes were mishandled, too. The destruction of Ganger-Amy at the end of The Almost People is an example. Ganger-Amy wasn't an independent individual but the story had spent a huge amount of time establishing that other gangers were. It needed to be very, very clear that Ganger-Amy was different, so the Doctor wasn't committing murder, and it was not clear at all. The story logic was actually there but the emotional presentation failed badly. --89.242.76.231talk to me 09:02, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
- I think the main problem with the Gangers two parter was that there just wasn't enough story for that to be in two parts. I think they made it clear that the Doctor had no choice but to disconnect the Ganger from Amy, but that whole story just wasn't interesting enough to be a two parter. They should have made that a single episode and then made The Wedding of River Song a two parter.Icecreamdif ☎ 02:37, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
- That would have been substantially better, I agree. Sadly, we can't go back to warn Moffat about the mistake before he makes it (unless someone happens to have a TARDIS somewhere, or even a vortex manipulator). --2.96.17.69talk to me 12:05, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but if I had a TARDIS I would be too busy using it to TiVo all of the missing episodes.Icecreamdif ☎ 14:28, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
- That thought had occurred to me, too. The plan was to go back, make copies using contemporary (1960s & 70s) technology, stash the copies somewhere safe, set up a cover story (previously unknown private collector), then return to about now & "discover" the stash (or arrange for someone else to discover it) in time for the find to be announced in mid-November 2013, just before the 50th anniversary. That wouldn't help with Series 6, mind you, but it'd be good, just the same. --78.146.177.55talk to me 09:43, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
