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| I think that too, because the Daleks want to exterminate every other species in the universe. Why are they working with other species? [[User:Misterchrister|Misterchrister]] 02:41, June 26, 2010 (UTC) | | I think that too, because the Daleks want to exterminate every other species in the universe. Why are they working with other species? [[User:Misterchrister|Misterchrister]] 02:41, June 26, 2010 (UTC) |
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| There are various castes of Silurians. So it could be the military caste. The original episode and this season have the same basic plot. Warrior caste nearly starts war but ruling caste is against it. There are also various colonies so it doesnt even have to be Elane's group. The simpliest explantion is they just used what costumes they had on hand. [[Special:Contributions/173.57.144.238|173.57.144.238]] 20:59, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Question about the episode == | | == Question about the episode == |
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| My theory is that as i said before 'Amy's house' is in fact a hidden TARDIS. Now, I cannot be sure as to why this (beleived to be) sinister TimeLord wants to take River to the TARDIS or at least to Amy's room to show her its master plan, unless, there is a more present danger other than that of the 'alliance'. Could there be an enemy who is (like a puppet-master) bended everyone around to its will, making plans within plans to get everyone to do as it wants? I am aware how far fetched this sounds but I really think someone such as the Master, Rassilon, the Monk or Omega are behind this. Remember, 'the Monk' is responsible for creating Stonehenge (sorry forgot the reference-look up the Monk anyway). Could Moffat really be making a finale here based on plot details from near 20-30 years ago?! I would certainly not put it past him!![[Special:Contributions/78.148.145.194|78.148.145.194]] 17:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC)Sontar HA[[Special:Contributions/78.148.145.194|78.148.145.194]] 17:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC) | | My theory is that as i said before 'Amy's house' is in fact a hidden TARDIS. Now, I cannot be sure as to why this (beleived to be) sinister TimeLord wants to take River to the TARDIS or at least to Amy's room to show her its master plan, unless, there is a more present danger other than that of the 'alliance'. Could there be an enemy who is (like a puppet-master) bended everyone around to its will, making plans within plans to get everyone to do as it wants? I am aware how far fetched this sounds but I really think someone such as the Master, Rassilon, the Monk or Omega are behind this. Remember, 'the Monk' is responsible for creating Stonehenge (sorry forgot the reference-look up the Monk anyway). Could Moffat really be making a finale here based on plot details from near 20-30 years ago?! I would certainly not put it past him!![[Special:Contributions/78.148.145.194|78.148.145.194]] 17:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC)Sontar HA[[Special:Contributions/78.148.145.194|78.148.145.194]] 17:54, June 20, 2010 (UTC) |
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| : I have recently seen the appearences of the Monk. He is not a "bad guy". He may not be fully good but he isnt evil and detroying the universe or killing the Doctor doesnt fit that character. They are portrayed as more "frenemies", just playing practical jokes on each other. It also sounds like from previous episodes that the Doctor and Master are the only Time Lords not Time Locked in the war. [[Special:Contributions/173.57.144.238|173.57.144.238]] 20:35, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
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| The article cites citation #9 (lifetheuniverseandcombom blog) as the source for Karen Westwood as Amy Pond's mother. However, that blog itself cites imdb and tardis.wikia's own article as its sources. IMDB's page does include Karen Westwood, so citing IMDB would make sense. However, citing an article that cites your own article as its source for the same information...well I think it goes without saying that that's silly and fine for Dr. Who but not for a wiki. [[Special:Contributions/72.93.185.63|72.93.185.63]] 22:05, June 20, 2010 (UTC) | | The article cites citation #9 (lifetheuniverseandcombom blog) as the source for Karen Westwood as Amy Pond's mother. However, that blog itself cites imdb and tardis.wikia's own article as its sources. IMDB's page does include Karen Westwood, so citing IMDB would make sense. However, citing an article that cites your own article as its source for the same information...well I think it goes without saying that that's silly and fine for Dr. Who but not for a wiki. [[Special:Contributions/72.93.185.63|72.93.185.63]] 22:05, June 20, 2010 (UTC) |
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| *The Doctor may have had it in his pocket at the time or was unable to use it tied down like he was if it was on his wrist. His arms were restrained, he managed to send a message to River at the end, but that was with a device he was holding in his hands. Here's a bigger plot hole though: how could that be opened with just the sonic screwdriver since it was such a complex prison??? Clearly some idiot in the Alliance forgot about that or dismissed it as the screwdriver was able to open the damn thing.--[[User:WarGrowlmon18|WarGrowlmon18]] 06:02, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | *The Doctor may have had it in his pocket at the time or was unable to use it tied down like he was if it was on his wrist. His arms were restrained, he managed to send a message to River at the end, but that was with a device he was holding in his hands. Here's a bigger plot hole though: how could that be opened with just the sonic screwdriver since it was such a complex prison??? Clearly some idiot in the Alliance forgot about that or dismissed it as the screwdriver was able to open the damn thing.--[[User:WarGrowlmon18|WarGrowlmon18]] 06:02, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
| *The episode clearly shows that the Doctor takes it out of River's satchel, which she'd left at the base of the Pandorica before going back to the TARDIS. There's no question about that. The only loose end is that we do not actually see her leave the satchel behind (Though we see that she does not have it when she enters the TARDIS).[[User:DorianX|DorianX]] 20:17, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | *The episode clearly shows that the Doctor takes it out of River's satchel, which she'd left at the base of the Pandorica before going back to the TARDIS. There's no question about that. The only loose end is that we do not actually see her leave the satchel behind (Though we see that she does not have it when she enters the TARDIS).[[User:DorianX|DorianX]] 20:17, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
| *It makes sense that she would leave her satchel of tools and gizmos behind for the Doctor. If you remember, the reason River went to fetch the TARDIS in The Pandorica Opens was because the Doctor said he would need "equipment" if he was to stop the Pandorica from being captured by any of his enemies. You see that he communicates with River and his enemies using one of her communiator devices, so it's not unreasonable to imagine she left him some other trinkets as well. [[Special:Contributions/83.71.107.254|83.71.107.254]] 10:37, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| Well, whatever about the rights and wrongs of the paradox, the Doctor is clearly seen taking the Vortex Manipulator out of River's satchel, which is positioned to the side of the Pandorica. So the whereabouts/origins of the Manipulator are definitely there in the script and on screen. (As for the paradoxes and workability of the narrative, we're probably not supposed to examine such things too closely.) ~~IantoJones | | Well, whatever about the rights and wrongs of the paradox, the Doctor is clearly seen taking the Vortex Manipulator out of River's satchel, which is positioned to the side of the Pandorica. So the whereabouts/origins of the Manipulator are definitely there in the script and on screen. (As for the paradoxes and workability of the narrative, we're probably not supposed to examine such things too closely.) ~~IantoJones |
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| The wholoe paradox thing here reminds me of two Star Trek Voyager episodes. I can't remember their names, but it was a two-parter. A timeship from the future arrives to destroy Voyager convinced it will be responsible for a temporal explosion in the future that will destroy the solar system. Stopping the attack traps the two ships in the past, Voyager in 1996 and the timeship in the 60s I believe. This changes Earth history and the bad guy on Earth ends up with a bunch of technology (ironicaly due to it the ship's doctor refered to as The Doctor) gets the ability to move around because of it. The crew encounter the timeship's pilot who has realized that the whole thing is a paradox: the explosion that led to this will be caused when the bad guy uses the timeship to travel to the future and apparently not correctly calibrating it thus leading up to the events that caused him to get the timeship in the first place. At the end they manage to change things by destroying the timeship at the very last second with Voyager's weapons as the bad guy prepares to head to the future and set history right. Voyager is then returned to its own time by the correct version of the guy who came to destroy Voyager.--[[User:WarGrowlmon18|WarGrowlmon18]] 21:32, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
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| VOY: Future's End. Nice episode.ANYWHOO....This is Doctor Who, he's a bloody ''Time-Lord'', he eats paradox's for breakfast! The whole universe is destroyed, and earth is kept alive by the destruction of the TARDIS. And you're worried about a measley little paradox? :-) -[[User:Jedman67|Jedman67]] 01:29, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| Would someone like to edit the PLOT to say the Doctor who was inside the Pandorica picks up the Vortex Manipulator? And that bit of info takes a lot of the wind out of my sails regarding this whole question. Yes, it still leaves the question, how did he get out to tell Auton Rory to let the Doctor out and put Amy in, but, with the clarifications being added to the PLOT section, it's easier to maintain the willing suspension of disbelief that this plot is depending upon. And yes, because if you don't worry about "a measley little paradox", the writing will get sloppy and the audience will eventually decide it's once again a kiddie's show where anything can be done without justification and we'll see this show go off air again. Just looking for an explanation that is consistant with the Whoniverse, and we don't have one yet. [[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 02:55, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == River Song in 2010 == | | == River Song in 2010 == |
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| In addition, River clearly remembers the Doctor. How come her memory isn't enough to bring the Doctor back? Or is it only Amy's magical brain that brings people back to existence from memories. >_> All seems weird to me. [[User:WeepingDevil|WeepingDevil]] 12:33, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | In addition, River clearly remembers the Doctor. How come her memory isn't enough to bring the Doctor back? Or is it only Amy's magical brain that brings people back to existence from memories. >_> All seems weird to me. [[User:WeepingDevil|WeepingDevil]] 12:33, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
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| : River's presence in 2010 is one of the oddest anomalies in an episode constructed entirely of highly intentional anomalies and paradoxes (Ontological paradoxes are Moffat's bread and butter, and I love that). I think her presence in 2010 can be explained loosely by her explanation that everyone would go back to where they were supposed to be if the Doctor suceeded. The last place she was before the explosion and collapse of the universe was staring at a rock wall through the TARDIS doors on June 26, 2010. So, perhaps she just ended up there sans-TARDIS. As for her memories, we don't really know what she remembered. The book was obviously blank, so her memory might have been too. She might have just had a hidden compulsion to carry out like Amy's (The Doctor will have plenty of time to implant instructions in younger Rivers, ala 'If you're ever trapped in 1969 you'll need this'.). It's either that or her persistent memory falls into the category of 'Things we don't know about River'. [[Special:Contributions/174.25.133.149|174.25.133.149]] 21:49, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
| | The episode was very clear that living next to the Crack had affected Amy significantly - the Universe was pouring into her brain, thus making her able to bring back people through the power of her memory. It also neatly explains what happened to her parents; i wonder why no one thought of that before? -[[User:Jedman67|Jedman67]] 13:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
| ::Actually her memory is due to her being a time traveler. Amy was unaffected by the erasure of the Weeping Angels and River was unaffected by the Doctor's erasure.--[[User:WarGrowlmon18|WarGrowlmon18]] 22:10, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| The episode was very clear that living next to the Crack had affected Amy significantly - the Universe was pouring into her brain, thus making her able to bring back people through the power of her memory. It also neatly explains what happened to her parents; i wonder why no one thought of that before? -[[User:Jedman67|Jedman67]] 13:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | The Pandorica recreated the universe based on its state when it was sealed around the Doctor. Part of that state was "River Song is in 2010". That is why River is in 2010. It's not at all clear what River remembers before Amy brings the Doctor back into existence, though; just as Amy's Time Traveler Immunity did not stop her from forgetting Rory, the Doctor is part of River's personal timeline, so she could be expected to forget him. However, River is a special case: her past is the Doctor's ''future'', so even as the Doctor's past was being unwound, what happened to his future is markedly less clear. |
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| == Amy in Pandorica == | | == Amy in Pandorica == |
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| :While a cool shot, it's '''huge''' spoilers and should be treated as such. --[[User:Erifneerg|Erifneerg]] 14:44, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | :While a cool shot, it's '''huge''' spoilers and should be treated as such. --[[User:Erifneerg|Erifneerg]] 14:44, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
| :How is it a spoiler? The episode has aired, it isn't a spoiler. [[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 09:26, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| :Besides it is already said in Plot, thus article itself is ''''huge''' spoiler', isn't it? --[[User:TakeruDavis|TakeruDavis]] 13:34, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Is it worth noting... == | | == Is it worth noting... == |
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| :: No, just "waiting it out", like real people would. We're technically time travelling as we speak. - ''<span style ="color:midnightblue">I. Am. [[User: Excalibur-117|Excalibur-117]]</span>''<span style ="color:midnightblue">-<sup>([[User talk:Excalibur-117|talk]] • [[Special: Contributions/ Excalibur-117|contribs]])</sup></span> 14:52, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | :: No, just "waiting it out", like real people would. We're technically time travelling as we speak. - ''<span style ="color:midnightblue">I. Am. [[User: Excalibur-117|Excalibur-117]]</span>''<span style ="color:midnightblue">-<sup>([[User talk:Excalibur-117|talk]] • [[Special: Contributions/ Excalibur-117|contribs]])</sup></span> 14:52, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
| ::: I'm not following. Rory hardly "waited" it out (assuming you call guarding a box for 2000years not waiting) and did remember the alternate timeline once seeing the Doctor. That would seem like there are two people, people that know of the other time lines and those that don't - depending on how time works. I wonder if Auton Rory memories when to Human Rory. | | ::: I'm not following. Rory hardly "waited" it out (assuming you call guarding a box for 2000years not waiting) and did remember the alternate timeline once seeing the Doctor. That would seem like there are two people, people that know of the other time lines and those that don't - depending on how time works. I wonder if Auton Rory memories when to Human Rory. |
| ::: I dont mean waiting as in sitting down with a cup of tea, I meant not actively time travelling, passive time travel if you will. If you still dont get it...ask someone else here, I'm not good at explaining this sort of stuff. - ''<span style ="color:midnightblue">I. Am. [[User: Excalibur-117|Excalibur-117]]</span>''-<sup>([[User talk:Excalibur-117|talk]] • [[Special: Contributions/ Excalibur-117|contribs]])</sup> 15:11, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | ::: I dont mean waiting as in sitting down with a cup of tea, I meant not actively time travelling, passive time travel if you will. If you still dont get it...ask someone else here, I'm not good at explaining this sort of stuff. - '' <span style ="color:midnightblue">I. Am. [[User: Excalibur-117| Excalibur-117]]</span>''-<sup>([[User talk:Excalibur-117|talk]] • [[Special: Contributions/ Excalibur-117|contribs]])</sup> 15:11, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
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| ::: Excalibur, very good spot and I agree the use of the 3 types of time travel should be added. There is a previous Moffat reference to the 'slow path' in The Girl in the Fireplace as taken by Reinette while waiting for the Doctor [[Special:Contributions/86.26.137.154|86.26.137.154]] 08:50, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Richard Dawkins == | | == Richard Dawkins == |
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| Someone could add (I can't at the moment): in the pre-credits scenes, Young Amy reads the National Museum brochure. In the section on the Nile Penguins (upper right corner of the screen), the word "tragedy" is misspelled "tradegy." --[[User:Histrion|Histrion]] 19:26, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | Someone could add (I can't at the moment): in the pre-credits scenes, Young Amy reads the National Museum brochure. In the section on the Nile Penguins (upper right corner of the screen), the word "tragedy" is misspelled "tradegy." --[[User:Histrion|Histrion]] 19:26, June 27, 2010 (UTC) |
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| History was being changed. Apparently, English was as well! :) -[[User:Jedman67|Jedman67]] 20:54, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Dancing == | | == Dancing == |
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| Just a point of clarification. | | Just a point of clarification. |
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| Yh, I guess that can be put in, but it wasn't technically the Doctor. John Smith and the Doctor are considered two different people. -[[User:Sichamousacoricothingmabob|Si]] <small>[[wikipedia:Pig Latin|Iway amway Ichamousacoricothingmabobsay.]]</small> <span class="plainlinks">[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/user:Sichamousacoricothingmabob/Human_Time_Lords http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG]</span> 19:11, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| ==Opening the Pandorica==
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| Big question we all had after the episode: how could the sonic screwdriver open the Pandorica? In the previous episode, they had tried opening it, to no avail, saying that while it was closed, it was dead-locked, time-locked, etc. The only explanation appears to be that the sonic screwdriver can now open it because the Doctor is inside, which doesn't seem all that robust. (kabirakhtar)
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| he said he could open it but didnt want to till he knew what was inside
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| *The Alliance was trying to stop the Doctor getting ''out'' of the Pandorica. They didn't think anyone would let him out to, as they thought, destroy the universe, so they didn't lock it on the outside. It is literally just like prison, it's easy to get in, but bloody difficult to get out. [[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 09:30, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| **The problem with your theory, Thirtenth Doctor, is that its still deadlocked (unless deadlocks can be made one way, but you'd think they'd be as thorough as possible). My personal theory is that, seeing as it took time for it to open, it took time for it to lock again... perhaps they were going to have guards guarding it until it was fully locked, but they hadn't counted on them being wiped ou from existing. But anyway, personally I think that it was still locking, and it hadn't deadlocked yet. -[[User:Sichamousacoricothingmabob|Si]] <small>[[wikipedia:Pig Latin|Iway amway Ichamousacoricothingmabobsay.]]</small> <span class="plainlinks">[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/user:Sichamousacoricothingmabob/Human_Time_Lords http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG]</span> 19:14, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Request for update to last paragraph of PLOT section ==
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| Would it be possible to update the last paragraph of the plot to clarify a few things:
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| *For the slow dance, the Doctor steps aside. For whom? Amy and Rory? He's been dancing with Amy all this time?
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| *He "lands" the TARDIS outside. From where? Maybe he just moved it from the dance floor to outside?
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| *When Amy says goodbye, to her previous life and all, is she leaving Rory behind? Don't they BOTH go with him?
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| Re penultimate paragraph: And when Rory remembers the Doctor, doesn't he also remember being an Auton?
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| I'm just asking, since people who come to this wiki, and haven't seen this episode (such as myself), will find these ambiguities confusing. And they're pretty easy to fix. I can't update as I'm basing all this on comments here in the wiki, not on seeing the broadcast.
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| Grazie [[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 03:14, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Something old, something new.. ==
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| The bit in the story notes section about how the same phrase, "Something old, something new, something borrowed, something blue," was used on another show later on the same night - is that actually noteworthy? That wedding tradition is pretty long-standing, and it's probably a coincidence that both shows used the phrase. [[User:TweedJacket|TweedJacket]] 04:23, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| As the person who wrote that... I will defend its case here. I actually didn't know it was a long-standing phrase until after i has inserted it in... but i still thik its noteworthy. It may be a famous phrase, but both shows using it in the same ay only a few hours apart is not something which happens regualry. Also the fact that it wa on the same channel and made by the same company... if it wasn't it'd probably be coincidence, which is noteworthy, and a it was, it was either a coincidence or delierate, if the latter then it's even more noteworthy, seeing as they decided to put the phrase in both shows on the same day. Anyway, i see no reason for it not to be there... -[[User:Sichamousacoricothingmabob|Si]] <small>[[wikipedia:Pig Latin|Iway amway Ichamousacoricothingmabobsay.]]</small> <span class="plainlinks">[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/user:Sichamousacoricothingmabob/Human_Time_Lords http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG]</span> 19:20, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == The Doctor wiped from existence ==
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| If the Doctor was erased from existence with no memory of him, wouldn't all universes be dead as he saved earth and thousands of other planets sometimes universes from threats.(Russell T Daives never did that like that he actually told people that all universes will be dead because the Doctor saved all planets.) [[User:The mysterious|The mysterious]] 05:18, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| *The Doctor mentioned to Donna once that the universe usually makes adaptations when time is changed. Presumably someone or something else filled the Doctor's role when he didn't exist. [[User:Wollstone|Wollstone]] 05:31, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| *That's not how it seems to work. As Wollstone said, sometimes the universe makes adaptions. But generally speaking, events of the present don't get changed because of the erasure, the same way Amy, the Doctor and River were still at the Byzantium crash site, even though the angel that caused the crash didn't exist. [[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 09:33, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| =="In the museum, when the trio see the "future" Doctor die..."==
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| Soulden't it be "In the museum, when the trio see the future Doctor "die""?[[Special:Contributions/109.186.158.241|109.186.158.241]] 09:22, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| ==Liz 10==
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| I noticed someone added a bit of speculation that the royalty that phones the Doctor at the end of the episode is Liz 10. There really isn't anything that suggests it was her, so that should be removed. [[User:Wollstone|Wollstone]] 11:45, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| ==River Song Theory (Doctor's Regeneration?)==
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| River song says "That's when everything changes", could this possibly shadow an impending regeneration? Possibly she caused the Doctor's next regeneration and thats why she was locked up?
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| [[Special:Contributions/94.2.77.27|94.2.77.27]] 11:49, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| ==How does the Sonic Screwdriver open the Pandorica?==
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| When it's locked with timestops, deadlocks and matterlocks? The screwdriver can't even open deadlocks.
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| My theory, as above, (seeing as this question is already a topic on this page and listed in the contents, it really shouldn't have been repeated here) is that, as i took time to open, it'd take time to lock, and so Rory got there before it locked completely. -[[User:Sichamousacoricothingmabob|Si]] <small>[[wikipedia:Pig Latin|Iway amway Ichamousacoricothingmabobsay.]]</small> <span class="plainlinks">[http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/user:Sichamousacoricothingmabob/Human_Time_Lords http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/e4/Si_HTL_Seal_Leader.PNG]</span> 19:23, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Foreshadowing? ==
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| The article lists some of the historically disrupted things that are seen in the museum, and this apparently includes Egyptians in the Himalayas. Possible connection to the appearance of an Egyptian god on the Orient Express (albeit in space)?-- [[User:Sorceror Nobody|Sorceror Nobody]] 16:16, June 28, 2010 (UTC)
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| == Ontological paradox ==
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| Regarding the actual Inception of the Plan to fly the Pandorica into the exploding Tardis
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| if Future doctor tells present doctor his plan.
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| then present goes on to become future doctor in another time stream
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| then it can be assumed that the Future doctor's plan came from an even farther Future doctor
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| this leads to the Plan never being created or thought of.
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