Talk:Harmony Shoal

Race or location?

The Shoal is described here as a race. We know that Scratch represents it.

But do we know it is a race?

"Shoal" suggests a location, and you can represent a location. The people who surround the Doctor seem human, but one or two aren't (but you can't tell if they have line-face.) And Scratch yells "heresy" but then Hydroflax is worshipped.

It could be an organisation or a religion or a place, or, even, a race. Is there an official source for it being a race? 167.160.116.147^{talk to me} 08:09, December 28, 2015 (UTC)

Are Scratch and the Shoal of the Winter Harmony actually members of the Halassi race? Despite never being actually stated during the episode it is heavily implied. King Hydroflax once raided the Halassi Vaults during which he tried to steal the diamond, which was driven into his skull. Scratch later recalled an event in which Hydroflax visited their world in "blood and joy". The Halassi race had also tasked River Song to retrieve the diamond, yet she and Scratch met first before having time to make any other arrangements. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.195.140.97 (talk).

That's just speculation. No, there's nothing in the episode which suggests they are a race, and the article should be altered to reflect that.--Skittles the hog - talk 21:47, January 5, 2016 (UTC)

Shoal of the Winter Harmony

Shoal of the Winter Harmony is not used in The Return of Doctor Mysterio (TV story), but on The Husbands of River Song (TV story), Scratch says: "I represent the Shoal of the Winter Harmony". OncomingStorm12th ☎ 22:09, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Well yes, it's because they were called "Shoal of the Winter Harmony" in Husbands that this page is named what it is. But if two thirds of their appearances call them the "Harmony Shoal", I think it should be renamed. CoT ? 22:21, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Oh yeah. Totally agree. Main name should really be "Harmony Shoal". However, as Harmony Shoal exists, which should get a dab term? Both are in-universe, so it really will be up to choice. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 22:23, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Hm... can I say I don't quite agree that Harmony Shoal should be renamed to Harmony Shoal Institute? It is only called so once in the whole story. For the rest of it, they simply call it "Harmony Shoal". I should rewrite my sentence from "sometimes" to "also called". OncomingStorm12th ☎ 22:28, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I was just about to begin moving links. IMO, Harmony Shoal Institute is much better than Harmony Shoal (organisation). Although, it appears that the set for the institue's lobby just uses "Harmony Shoal". At the same time, the head of the company calls it the "Harmony Shoal Institute".

I can't seem to find the page for this wiki's policy on dab terms, but I'd imagine they should only be used if there's no other choice. CoT ? 22:57, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I believe the ones that apply to our case are Tardis:Disambiguation#Main principles and Tardis:Disambiguation term. Both Shoal of the Winter Harmony and Harmony Shoal are most commonly known as "Harmony Shoal", even though these are different things. However, as (species) is a more common dab term than (corporation), (company) or whatever we'd use for Harmony Shoal, I believe we should do this:

Shoal of the Winter Harmony gets moved to Harmony Shoal (species), but "Shoal of the Winter Harmony" still redirects to "Harmony Shoal (species)"

Harmony Shoal is kept with the same name, and a "Harmony Shoal Institute" is created. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:20, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

Except the species is the primary topic. They named the company after themselves, not the other way around. I don't see why the company need more than one page. CoT ? 23:33, March 1, 2017 (UTC)

I've always thought of it this way: "Shoal of the Winter Harmony" is what they are called while "Harmony Shoal" is what they named their institute. We should also remember to factor in that the events of Doctor Mysterio takes place many centuries before Husbands. --DCLM ☎ 10:27, December 3, 2017 (UTC)

I think it's beyond reasonable doubt, at this point, that "Harmony Shoal" is more often used for the species than "Shoal of the Winter Harmony" is, so I think we can move forward with that rename once links are moved (though keeping a redirect at Shoal of the Winter Harmony). If Harmony Shoal Institute is to remain a distinct page, I agree it should be at that title, rather than a dabbed version.

That being said, I'd also like to throw the following curveball: I'm not so sure we should give the organisation and the species different page. Clearly we are not dealing with Harmonyshoals from the planet Harmonyshos — we're treating them as a species from the available information, but the plain-English, florid name makes it seem as though they're just as much a culture and a group as they are a species. Where does this leave us? Good question! We have "Silent" separate from "the Silence", but, I think, largely because the Silence also has numerous prominent non-Silent members, which isn't true of the Harmony Shoal. One thing we don't have is some page trying to separate "the Time Lords insofar as they are a political entity and civlisation" from "the Time Lords insofar as they are a Gallifreyan (sub)species", because that would be a nightmare. I'm not sure, but I think there's room for discussion. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 20:26, 29 July 2022 (UTC)