View source for Forum:Separating Footnotes and References

{{Forumheader|The Panopticon}}
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== Proposal ==
As someone who loves using <nowiki><ref></nowiki> and {{tlx|reflist}} on this wiki, I've long noticed that our current practice mixes together two distinct purposes:
#footnotes, i.e. explanatory or clarifying comments; and
#references, i.e. external links which serve as evidence for the claims, usually through {{tlx|cite web}}.

Mixing these two very different use cases results in confusion. As an example, see [[Faction Paradox (series)#Footnotes]]. Of the 68 "footnotes" on that page, 62 are source citations and 6 are explanatory comments. How quickly can you identify which is which? Spoiler: it's borderline impossible!

Other wikis have an established way to solve this problem: separating "Footnotes" and "References". As an example, see the {{w|Earth#Notes|#Notes}} and {{w|Earth#References|#References}} sections on Wikipedia's "Earth" page. Explanatory footnotes are listed in one section, and external links are listed in the other. This is achieved by using two parallel versions of <nowiki><ref></nowiki> and {{tlx|reflist}}.

Surprisingly, the tools for this already exist on our wiki as well: {{tlx|note}} and {{tlx|notelist}}! To see how these would look on [[Faction Paradox (series)]], see [[User:NateBumber/Sandbox/2]]. Isn't that ''much'' better? Besides clarity, there are several other advantages to using {{tlx|note}} in addition to <nowiki><ref></nowiki>:
* The pipe trick [[Special:Diff/3607214|doesn't work]] in <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tags, which make them poorly suited for footnote-style commentary. {{tlx|note}} doesn't have this problem.
* You can use <nowiki><ref></nowiki> ''within'' a {{tlx|note}}! This is hugely helpful, for instance in Footnote 5 on [[User:NateBumber/Sandbox/2|the sandbox]].
* There are many pages where our in-universe coverage would benefit from out-of-universe explanatory footnotes; [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] has suggested one case on [[Talk:Fifteenth Doctor]], and [[Infinity Doctor]] is an awesome example of footnotes done right. But due to the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> muddle, we've been held back from using them to their full potential.

If we already have {{tlx|note}}, why haven't we been using it? Because the obvious names for the two sections are "Footnotes" and "References", and "References" was already being used on our story pages for a different purpose. However, as of [[Forum:References into Worldbuilding]], that usage conflict no longer exists. The way forward is finally clear: all that's left is for us to take it! – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 18:51, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

== Discussion ==
Yeah, this seems like a good thing to do to make the wiki more usable. I '''Support''' it. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:27, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

:I agree with this, it's pretty much common sense. {{Unsigned|Aquanafrahudy‎}}

::Hmmm. How would we stylize this? Would we do it like in your sandbox, with nb X? While I'm acquainted, I don't think this is common parlance for most readers. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

:::That's more or less how Wikipedia do it, isn't it? Or do they use letters? [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]]  19:58, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

::::I believe they use "Note X". [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:18, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

:::::Ah, they use "a", "b", "c" etc, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-thousander#cite_ref-EBJ1_29-0] for a random example I found. [[User:Aquanafrahudy|<span style="font-family: serif; color: pink" title="Hallo." > Aquanafrahudy</span>]] [[User talk: Aquanafrahudy|<span title="Talk to me">📢</span>]]  20:34, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

:::: Nate mentioned my recent reply at [[Talk:Fifteenth Doctor]], so yeah, I am in strong support of this and have been for quite a while. [nb 1] (for ''[[wikipedia:nota bene|nota bene]]'') is the default by MediaWiki, but I believe it's pretty easy to change to [note 1] or alphabetically like [a]. Personally I think nb is fine, but note could work too. Alphabetical footnotes are best reserved for specific parts of a page, e.g. a table or list with its own footnotes directly under it. (It wouldn't be hard to make another template like this, I think.) Wikipedia is actually a bit inconsistent on what format they use, I think there is reason to it but I don't quite understand it. [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] [[User talk:Chubby Potato|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:39, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

::::: I give this my full support. I'm impartial on whether we use "nb", "note" or letters. I would like to correct [[User:Chubby Potato|Chubby Potato]] slightly, though. "nb" is not the MediaWiki default and is defined explicitly in {{tlx|note}}. It's very easy to change. I'm not entirely sure off the top of my head how to do letters but that knowledge should only be one web search away. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:46, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

:::::: I like this idea as well, but we will need to rename the current References section first. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC)