Howling:Questions from Season Five: Difference between revisions

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 The Doctor was more than just "murdered by a time lord", he was killed by a time lord who had had lot's of experiments done to them. My guess is that the fact they had a Time Lord within an airtight suit wired up to a weapon somehow negated the effects of any resurrection object if anyone tried to use them. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 22:59, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
+The Doctor wasn't "murdered by a Time Lord" at all. River isn't a Time Lord. How she was packaged ("airtight suit wired up to a weapon" or whatever) is irrelevant to the question of "any resurrection object" -- at least, it's irrelevant without some pretty good technobabble to explain why it would make a difference. The writers had no difficulty providing the necessary technobabble for the poison that prevented regeneration, so they could have provided anti-resurrection technobabble, too. And they would have, '''in advance''', if they'd wanted to -- it would have raised the stakes. Doing it now, to explain the fancy dress in retrospect, wouldn't raise the stakes (or anything else, except maybe a hollow laugh), because we already know the Doctor wasn't killed. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.77.143|89.241.77.143]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.77.143#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:17, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+River is a Time Lord, she just isn't a Gallifreyan. Anyway, ''The End of Time'' wasn't very specific about how the Master's regeneration worked. However, based on what we saw, a bunch of the Doctor's friends would just have to throw his bow ties, a bunch of chemicals, and a tissue that had touched River's lips into a cauldron and the Doctor would ressurect, regardless of what happenned to his body. Still, they didn't even give us much technobabble during the Master's most recent ressurection. The space suit was suppossed to be a life support, and Melody regenerated a few months after she was seperated from it. Maybe she needed it to keep her alive. Then maybe they just gave it to her in 2011 since she can't breathe underwater, and they thought that she would look more bad-ass coming out of the lake.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 04:06, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+River is a human with some Time Lord characteristics. That doesn't make her a Time Lord. You can call her a Time Lord. That doesn't make her a Time Lord, either. It does, however, confuse matters wholly unnecessarily. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.77.143|89.241.77.143]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.77.143#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:37, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+i wonder what the similarities there are between the dna of river, a human plus timelord, compared to meta 10, a part human part timelord. ps, it was stated in the show that river was human plus timelord, just to end the argument above. [[User:Imamadmad|Imamadmad]] <sup>[[User talk:Imamadmad|talk to me]]</sup> 12:22, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+Yes, I have to agree that the names we have been using to describe River in this thread is not at all accurate. The Doctor has even made it clear that even his daughter/clone should not be called a Timelord, but at the same time, we can't call River a human because she has triple helix DNA, that's pretty much the furthest thing we can get from human or any Earth specie. --[[Special:Contributions/222.166.181.166|222.166.181.166]]<sup>[[User talk:222.166.181.166#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:13, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+Well, back on the resurrection topic, bear in mind the Master's body had been burned before his followers could retrieve it. The Doctor's body was left for his companions to do what they want with it. Maybe there are other resurrection techniques? What about that thing River did in LKH? If the Silence weren't aware that she hadn't already done it, they might have known she had the ability and used the weapon to negate its effects? The ring might have come into it too, but I'm guessing that time lords have plenty of tricks up their sleeves when it comes to facing death, regeneration and resurrection being just two of them. The Silence needed to take this into consideration. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:33, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
+I don't think that the thing that River did in ''Let's Kill Hitler'' was ever fully explained, but my impression was that it was only possible because River was still regenerating. Anyway, there are, of course, many other ressurection techniques. One can come back as a [[The Deadly Assassin|creepy skeleton-looking thing]], use [[The Deadly Assassin|The Eye of Harmony]], [[The Keeper of Traken|use the powers of the Keeper]], [[The Keeper of Traken|posess someone]], [[The Mark of the Rani|be "indestructible"]], [[The TV Movie|have a weird ghost snake rise from one's ashes]], [[The TV Movie|posess someone else]], [[The TV Movie|try to use the eye again]], [[Utopia|or be ressurected by the Time Lords]]. You might notice a pattern as to which Time Lord cheats death the most.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 02:45, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+A masterly summary. --[[Special:Contributions/89.241.73.161|89.241.73.161]]<sup>[[User talk:89.241.73.161#top|talk to me]]</sup> 03:05, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+Hm, which time lord who always dies could you possibly be talking about? Still, I'm sure the Silence and Kovarian had taken all this into consideration, and, in my opinion, they used Melody in a space suit to combat this, and perhaps to make her look badass coming out of the lake. Thoughts? [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 17:35, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+From what happened in ''The Wedding of River Song'', one of the purposes of the spacesuit was to ensure the gun got fired even if River managed to resist her "programming". The only way she managed to prevent the Doctor being shot (and thus caused the collapse of time) was to exhaust the gun's power, first. --[[Special:Contributions/89.242.64.17|89.242.64.17]]<sup>[[User talk:89.242.64.17#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:17, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+But why bother putting River in a Space Suit in the first place?
+We know that the Silence killed the Doctor to prevent the answer to the question. Wouldn't it be terrible to go to all that trouble to "silence" the Doctor, and then Amy finds a way to bring him back? I'm pretty darn certain they'd have took this into consideration. I'd definitely be surprised if despite knowing a lot about the Doctor they didn't possess the knowledge that Time Lords can be brought back extremely easily. Want an example? Look back at Icecreamdif's previous comment for just a few instances where the Master has seemingly 'died forever' and been brought back as easy as winking. [[Special:Contributions/87.102.117.106|87.102.117.106]]<sup>[[User talk:87.102.117.106#top|talk to me]]</sup> 19:00, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+I just don't really see how putting Melody in a space suit can really prevent any of the examples that I listed. Of course, more often than not, the Master's ressurections were never fully explained. My personal favorite is how he survived ''Planet of Fire''. He might as well have said "I'll explain later."[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 21:27, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+Here are my two pence: The Silence (movement) want The Doctor dead. We know this. But we also know that time is not a straight line, and so remember the 'fixed point plan' at Lake Silencio was only initiated at the end of Closing Time. It was not always their 'grand plan', rather yet another attempt on The Doctor's life. I like to think Madam Kovarian came up with the Silencio plot, as she has exhibited sadism and would revel in having River kill him against her will. The Silence kidnap Melody, take her to America for conditioning (contrary to what many have said above, The Silence didn't land on Earth in The Stone Age solely to create a spacesuit; this would only have been the time from the conception of the idea of travelling into space to actually travelling there) and plan to use her to kill The Doctor any way she can. A Time Lord is preferable over any other species not least because they have a multitude of lives and so would have more than one chance to assassinate him. Tied to Madam Kovarian, the daughter of his best friend being his murderer is by far the cruelest fate The Silence could pin on him. Since we don't know his future, The Doctor may have sparked so much fear into his enemies that they would be willing to quite literally risk the fate of the universe to keep that silence on the Fields of Trenzalore. The Pandorican Alliance were the Doctor's fearful 'enemies' and so concucted a wild plot to contain him forever, unknowingly creating the very thing they feared (the cracks in time). Remember that until we know The Doctor's future and why The Silence want him... silenced... for all we know, The Pandorica was a last deperate attempt to contain him forever (since they would likely eventually discover he is still alive) that takes place from The Silence's point of view after the Silencio plot, as an alternative to their failed methods of assasination. Time is all over the place when time-travel is in the mix. Bless The Silence for trying to achieve a murder in its complexities! (Currently unsigned; Whitaker for the record)
+First, there are some contributions (dated January 10, 2012) relevant to this in the discussion [http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Howling:Silence_in_the_Lodger&t=20120110220031 Silence in the Lodger]. Second, "we also know that time is not a straight line" and "the 'fixed point plan' at Lake Silencio was only initiated at the end of ''Closing Time''" don't really make sense, taken together. At the very least, you need to tell us "... at the end of ''Closing Time''" '''in whose timeline'''. That's not to say you're wrong about it being one of several attempts. Third, you're almost certainly right that "the Silence didn't land on Earth in The Stone Age solely to create a spacesuit". They probably had the spacesuit made on Earth because (a) they were here, anyway, and (b) the Doctor is on Earth more often than he's on any other individual planet, so Earth's the most likely place to catch him. --[[Special:Contributions/2.101.54.163|2.101.54.163]]<sup>[[User talk:2.101.54.163#top|talk to me]]</sup>22:54, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
+Ahh, well my point being that to The Doctor he has experienced The Silence's attempts on his life in the opposite order (or thereabouts) to how they were carried out from The Silence's point of view. Much like how he has experiences with River almost in reverse, "time is not a straight line" here means that he can experience a assassination plot before it has been initiated. I suppose its a complicated way of saying that to River it happens quite early on her timeline, to The Doctor it happens after The Pandorican attempt even though it may have been carried out by The Silence after they discovered he was still alive. Stay relative to the causal nexus and you may die. Whitaker, 23:57, January 10th, 2012 (GMT)
+Thanks for the clarification. I think I now follow what you mean. (The language has a problem because it's built on the assumption that time '''is '''a straight line, rather than a "big ball of timey-wimey... stuff"!) Your idea of the events being in one sequence for the Silence and another for the Doctor does chime with what's been said recently in the "Silence in the Lodger" discussion. I won't duplicate that here but you ought to take a look at it. I can't help thinking that the Silence are making a bad mistake trying to cope with the complexities of time and time travel by using complicated plans. Putting the two sets of complexities together makes things even more likely to get fouled up. --[[Special:Contributions/2.101.54.163|2.101.54.163]]<sup>[[User talk:2.101.54.163#top|talk to me]]</sup> 01:06, January 11, 2012 (UTC)