Howling:Questions from Season Five
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.
As much as I have liked the recent story arcs, I am still a little confused about a handful of points. I guess the writers will expand on them as further seasons allow, but I wanted to make sure I was not missing something.
Who is the “silence will fall” voice and what is there relationship to the The Silence? – At the time I thought this to be a threat, and the tone of the voice fitted that (the threat being the silence at the end of the universe). But knowing the silence must fall is a prophecy; it does not make sense any more.
Who visited Amy’s house the night before her wedding? Was it the speaker of “silence will fall”, or was it the Silence? Why were they there? To carry out the attack on the Tardis, or to check on Melody Pond (would she be there in this version of reality?)
Whilst they were at it, why didn’t they take revenge on River for her failure to kill the doctor? They had her in the Tardis and could have killed her.
The Silence appear to be rooted in this universe, so the plan to destroy it with the cracks and to unite the doctors enemies to stop it seems high risk (whether it was the Silence, or their mysterious ally.)
I am also confused with the clerics. In Crash of the Byzantium they seem to want the help of the doctor and consider him an ally. Yet earlier in the story line for them, they are fighting the Doctor in A Good Man Goes to War.
[Unsigned to this point]
"Who visited Amy’s house the night before her wedding?" The burn patterns seen by River were about the right size and shape for Daleks but it's never been definitively revealed what made them.
"why didn’t they take revenge on River...?" This one, at least, has a reasonable answer. River's imprisonment seems to be part of a scheme to conceal the fact that the Doctor wasn't killed. It may be that revenge wasn't sought because the villains didn't know there was something to take revenge for. Also, River was in the TARDIS when whoever blew it up did so but the TARDIS protected her by putting her into a time loop. (The Doctor explained that in The Big Bang.) If it hadn't been for that protection, the explosion would have killed her. Those who caused the explosion may not have known how well the TARDIS could protect her occupants and would, therefore, have assumed that River would die.
"The Silence appear to be rooted in this universe..." The Alliance obviously didn't know what they were doing. They thought the Doctor was going to destroy the universe and imprisoned him in the Pandorica to prevent that. The result was that he was unable to prevent the TARDIS explosion, so the action of the Alliance led to the very thing it was intended to prevent. In Let's Kill Hitler, it seemed to be implied that the Silence was trying to kill the Doctor to stop him answering the question that would cause silence to fall. Speculation: The apparent illogic of what's been going on may be the result of the Silence having got hold of the wrong end of the stick (again). They're convinced that the Doctor is the source of the danger when, in fact, the danger is caused by their attempts to get rid of him. So far, I can only speculate about this because we still don't have enough facts -- Series 6 didn't answer all the outstanding questions.
"I am also confused with the clerics." You're not alone. The best guess I can make is that the clerics in A Good Man Goes to War were (unknown to themselves) under the control of the Silence, while those in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone (Crash of the Byzantium) were not. One thing I noticed when watching The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone was that Octavian implied that some people did not regard River's (supposed) victim as a hero, although Octavian himself did: "a hero to many" but not to everyone. In A Good Man Goes to War, it was obvious that several people among those gathered to fight the Doctor admired him, meaning that opinion within the Church was divided.
"Who is the “silence will fall” voice and what is there relationship to the The Silence?" I've left this to last because it seems the most important question. It's also still unanswered. The voice (heard in the TARDIS just before the explosion) definitely wasn't the voice of the Silence aliens we met in Series 6. Maybe it's their real leader. Maybe it's their real enemy. Maybe it's both and they're being manipulated into bringing about the outcome they're trying to avoid. At the moment, the only firm conclusion I can come to is: Insufficient data. --89.240.242.138 23:14, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
A good set of answers and speculations, 89. I would add that perhaps the Church isn't as monolithic as some seem to think. Octavian calls the Doctor "A hero to many" and believes River has killed the Doctor..... and apparently thinks maybe he knows before his death and maybe he doesn't.... and since he's here he hasn't died yet, so since he'll survive, so will we. I expect he's befuddled by the issues of time travel and the semi-mythical status of the Doctor. We are not dealing with just the facts -- as portrayed on the tv show and so forth, which proceeds in a fairly linear progression from the Doctor's viewpoint, after all. After Octavian's death in Flesh and Stone I have been expecting to see him twenty years earlier, a raw Second Verger, who winds up telling the Doctor "I think you've seen me at my worst." Maybe in the Gamma Forests. Boblipton talk to me 01:28, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that destroying the TARDIS was a first attempt at killing the Doctor by the Silence. They wanted to stop him from answering the Question (which would lead to nothing but silence) and in doing so, created a huge explosion that the Doctor would be blamed for, and thus the Alliance would imprison him. The total event collapse would still occur, so the Alliance would have failed, but the Doctor wouldn't be able to visit Trenzalore and answer the Question because he'd be trapped inside the Pandorica. The Doctor escaped and stopped the total event collapse, so the Silence tried again, this time by killing him, and that's where Amy and Demons Run and River and the Space Race come in. The bit I don't get is that the Silence seem to be trying to kill the Doctor to prevent the untold horrors that would happen when he answered the Question. In order to stop 'silence' (presumably some sort of apocalypse) the Silence attempt to destroy the universe which seems a tad bit hypocritical. I'm sure it will be discovered eventually, I just think the Doctor should have said something like "River was the Silence's second attempt to stop me. The first must have been the Pandorica, creating a total event collapse and blaming it on me so the people of the universe would unite and imprison me." And then say that, I don't know, the Silence live in a bubble universe that wouldn't have been effected by the TARDIS apocalypse but would've been effected by the Question apocalypse. The preceding comment was made by Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 10:43, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
I also think the Spacesuit thing's a bit weird. So the Silence spent 40000 years manipulating humankind into creating a spacesuit, which they needed to trap River. Two questions spring to mind:
1) Why does it have to be a spacesuit, why can't it just be some other suit.
2)If they know how to build it, why not just do that rather than wasting an incredibly long amount of time getting someone else to do it.
Maybe the Silence just like long and elaborate schemes that make no sense, or maybe Steven Moffat has a trick up his sleeve. I hope for the latter but fear for the former. Something tells me there might not be any further mention of the TARDIS exploding or spacesuits... The preceding comment was made by Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 10:43, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
They're neurotic. Boblipton talk to me 11:53, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the silence falling that comes from the question being answered is somehow even worse than the total event collapse. As for the space suit, that's not even as over complicated as their plan seems ot be. If they need someone to just shoot the Doctor a couple of times, then why did it have to be a Time Lord? Couldn't they have picked any random person off the street, stuck them in a space suit, and had them shoot the Doctor a few times. HOpefully, there will be some kind of answer in the next season.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:16, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
Boblipton: Of course they're neurotic. You'd be neurotic, too, if everyone forgot you the moment they looked away!
Seriously, though:
It does seem pretty unlikely that the Silence would devote 40, 000 years (probably longer since our ancestors acquired fire) to developing a spacesuit. Given the age of some of the races in the DW universe, they could have got a spacesuit 40, 000 years ago, if they'd wanted one then. My take on this isn't that they started manipulating humanity in order to get a spacesuit but that they were manipulating humanity, anyway, to expand their unwitting labour force, then decided to have the spacesuit made on Earth (where they were already established) because that fitted their plans. Even if they didn't know about the "fixed point in time", the Doctor visits Earth more frequently than any other planet, so it's the obvious place to lay a trap for him. He associates with humans more than with any other species, so using humans as their catspaws is also obvious. If the Silence were established on Earth, anyway, they'd only need to pick a time when humanity was within striking distance of being able to make a spacesuit.
Why a spacesuit? Basically, they wanted some kind of life-support suit. A diving suit would serve that function but a diving suit isn't bulletproof and a spacesuit (visor excepted) is. NASA's suits are covered in kevlar to protect against micrometeoroids, which have about the same kinetic energy as rifle bullets, concentrated in a far smaller impact area. Someone in a spacesuit is going to be very difficult to stop at short notice. A person in a diving suit emerging from a body of water might be unexpected but wouldn't have anywhere near the same surprise factor as a person in a spacesuit emerging from a body of water. Instead of trying to do something about it immediately, any witnesses could be expected to waste vital time wondering, "What the hell is going on?"
Having allowed for all that, though, there's still plenty that doesn't seem to make sense and the various schemes do seem severely overelaborate. As Icecreamdif says, if all they needed was for someone to shoot the Doctor, they could have found plenty of willing hitmen who'd have done it for a little money -- and probably several who'd have done it for free. I, too, hope SM has a trick up his sleeve that will eventually make sense of why the Silence have gone about things the way they have, rather than Keep(ing) It Simple, Stupid! --2.101.53.95 20:47, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
"Maybe the silence falling that comes from the question being answered is somehow even worse than the total event collapse." — Icecreamdif
{C}This is what I thought too, however I also considered that perhaps the Silence simply considers silence falling to be worse than the destruction of the universe, while we might consider the destruction of the universe worse, basically a case of Blue and Orange Morality. Basically they believe anything is better than the question being answered, remember they also kept trying to kill the Doctor in the collapsed!timeline in Wedding of River Song even though that would leave the Doctor dead but the timeline still collapsed.
As for the marks outside of Amy's house the night before her wedding, while it wasn't confirmed so-to-speak (otherwise it wouldn't be brought up) but I'm fairly sure it was supposed to be one of the members of the Alliance there to get the physic imprint off her house to create the Autons (perhaps even a probe from the Nestene itself).
{C}As for the spacesuit, basically it's a stable timeloop, remember they already know that River in the spacesuit "kills" the Doctor there "before" the Doctor had actually went there, so they actually got their plan from knowledge of the fixed point and thus went through the effort to create the fixed point because they had to, in order to fulfill the fixed point. The Light6 talk to me 04:28, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
Not exactly. Remember, the Doctor's supposed death wasn't a natural fixed point in time like Pompeii or Bowie Base One. Lake Silencio on April 22 2011 at 5:02 PM was already a still point in time (whatever the hell that means) which made it possible for the Silence to deliberately turn it into a fixed point. That means that before they created the fixed point it wasn't a fixed point and didn't necessarily have to be fulfilled. Besides, if they couldn't even tell the difference between the Doctor and the Teselecta, how would they have known that it was River in the space suit. I guess they piicked the location because it was a still point, and then decided that as long as they were on the beach it would be awesome to have an assassin come out from the water in a space suit. Of course, we still don't know why young Melody had to be in the space suit, or why she regenerated.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:50, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
- Well remember that at one point they would have located the "still point" and then engineered into a fixed point, once it was a fixed point what would of their past selves seen once they looked at what was previously a still point but was now a fixed point? Basically by creating the fixed point that altered the past changing it so that their previous actions were the result of a time loop while their "present selves" remembered creating the fixed point out of the still point. Also while I still don't understand why they needed River in the spacesuit (apart from time loops) I would say young Melody having spent her whole life on Earth in the suit had been protected from Earth's pathogens and had no immunity and simply caught something that would be harmless to you and I but was fatal to her. The Light6 talk to me 00:21, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
- The Light6, I think I understand what you said, but I've been doing some fine-point editing, so let me see if I can rephrase it a little more clearly: the Silence engineered a fixed point in time and then had one of their number witness it (the Silent that Amy saw). To make sure it happened, they engaged in a bootstrap paradox to make sure all the details were correct: the spacesuit, River inside, etc. Is that about it? If so, I like it.Boblipton talk to me 00:55, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
- Yep, that's basically it. The Light6 talk to me 03:08, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
- Icecreamdif, "a still point in time (whatever the hell that means)": The most obvious meaning is that nothing much happens there -- at least, nothing that's either the result of events elsewhere or the cause of events elsewhere (elsewhere in space or in time), so that a major event could be created there without running foul of unpredictable repercussions. That, at any rate, is my interpretation of the term (subject to any later elucidation in the show itself).
- The Light6/Boblipton: The Silence involving themselves in a bootstrap paradox is the best explanation I've so far seen for the complicated way they went about it. If so, it had the effect that making things complicated so often does: it went wrong. They created a fixed point, all right, but not quite the one they intended to create. Instead of the fixed point being the Doctor being killed, it was the Doctor (falsely) appearing to be killed. The Silence seem to have made two major mistakes: 1. Failing to Keep It Simple, Stupid, and 2. Taking on a Time Lord when they didn't really understand how time works. Speculation on my part: It may be that the nature of the fixed point was such that it didn't matter too much what really happened, as long as what appeared to happen was the same. It might not have made any real difference if the Doctor had found some other way of faking his death and the "cremation" afterwards -- a way that didn't involve the Teselecta -- as long as he found some way of faking it.
- The Light6, "young Melody .... had no immunity ..." etc.: From what little we saw of events at Demon's Run before the rescue by Rory, the Doctor and allies, it seems quite possible that baby Melody had been switched for a ganger very early on, perhaps immediately after birth. If so, she might also have been deprived of the immune system "starter" provided by breast feeding. Colostrum (also known as foremilk) is loaded with immune factors. Missing out on that isn't going to be disastrous for a baby who's otherwise brought up normally (i.e., with plenty of environmental stimuli for her immune system) but if Melody was also kept in a germ-free environment afterwards, that would be liable to put her immune system at a disadvantage. --89.240.245.168 03:20, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
- meh...the show stopped making sense a long time ago since Moffatt took over. Rewriting time means a doctrine established in all previous Doctor Who seasons is now nothing, all those precautionary and mind boggling time loops are now meaningless. The Doctor not only lies now, he lies alot, and so does every single character on screen. You can't trust what you see, what you hear, what you believe and what you deduct. Whatever happened, there's a possibility that it will be undone. It's coolness over logic now... Man I miss Classic Who--222.166.181.54 15:20, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
Well, classic Who didn't have to deal with thiss kind of thing much because, for the most part they didn't do story arcs. Besides, I always find it kind of weird when people compare the new series to the classic series,. I mean, the show probably changed more from An Unearthly Child to Survival then from Survival to Rose. As for rewriting time being a Moffat idea-have you ever seen Genesis of the Daleks? Anyway, this is getting slightly off topic. 89, your explanation for a still point probably makeks about as muich senses as any, but as even in your exxplanation the Sileence had to created the still point in some timeline somewhere before the supposed time llop started, it still doesn't explain why the plan had to be so complicated, or why they need a Time Lord in the space suit. Icecreamdif talk to me 19:58, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
Talking out of my a**, let's look at it this way: a fixed point in time has to be stable within the web of time, such as it is in the post- Time Lord universe. Given that the Doctor turns up everywhere twice eventually, you, the Silent in charge, identify the conditions that can be adjusted to what I can only call an equilibrium state, indentify Lake Silencio on the afternoon of 22 April 2011 and go take a look and see what you can do to lure the s.o.b. there at the right time. Well, that's good, a lake. You don't want to give the Doctor a chance to figure things out or talk his way out, so you can hide the deadly assassin there until the fatal death takes place. While you're standing there thinking, you see the Doctor and his buddies show up, picnic, River in the space suit come out of the Lake, and so forth. It happens.It's the frigging fixed point in time that involves the Doctor's death before he can tell anyone doctor who! Now it's up to you to make sure it does happen that way and, not being quite sure which, if any details are important -- something even Time Lords have been shown to be fuzzy about, given Vesuvius and Adelaide Brooke -- you set up every detail to replicate just what you've seen. I'm sure the Silents would have been equally happy with, say a meteor strike, but their motive is to make sure that the fixed point in time occurs just as they've seen it so it remains a fixed point. If they'd seen a brass band and a fireworks display, they would have arranged for those too. But they didn't, so they didn't. That's the reason these are bootstrap paradoxes: the effect derives from the cause, which derives from the effect. It happens that way because it happens that way, ding ach sich gone mad. [Unsigned but presumed to be Boblipton 20:59, November 3, 2011]
Icecreamdif, "it still doesn't explain why the plan had to be so complicated, or why they need a Time Lord in the space suit": The explanation immediately above (which I think is by Boblipton) that the Silence couldn't tell which details were important does seem reasonable, as far as the complexity is concerned. It may not be that they needed a Time Lord (or, rather, a human with some Time Lord abilities) in the suit. It may be more of the same bootstrapping -- they found out that River Song/Melody Pond was the presumed assassin and decided they had to stick with that. When they found out (either by their research before they started or after they kidnapped the pregnany Amy) that River has Time Lord DNA, they'd be highly likely to conclude that that was somehow important, even if it really wasn't -- and we don't know whether it was or not. Additionally, the main servant they were using was Kovarian. Everything we've learned about her indicates she's a genuine sadist. It also indicates that she'd not really believe in the possibility of her own failure. Given the choice between a simple, quick method of getting rid of an enemy and a much more complicated and chancy method that inflicted suffering on several friends of that enemy, she'd go for the suffering. A sane person would see that that reduced the chances of success. Kovarian would not; she'd expect the entire universe to follow the script she'd written inside her head. To Kovarian, the idea of using as the assassin someone who loved the Doctor and was being forced to act against her deepest inclinations would be well-nigh irresistible. --89.241.72.134 23:38, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
My apologies for neglecting to sign. Yes, the section that begins "Talking out of my a**" is me. Accept no substitute rectums. Boblipton talk to me 23:46, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
I think one thing many of you are forgetting about ontological/bootstrap paradoxes/time loops is that the Silence played no part in it's complexity (assuming this is the case), a time loop can be very simple or needlessly complex and all without any choice of the participants in the time loop as to it's complexity because it was already at a set complexity. In simpler terms, why didn't they create a simple scenario? Because the scenario was already complex before they even started. It's a paradox, they tend to do these things (also I'll probably just add that if you really want to be confused by paradox complexity read Homestuck). The Light6 talk to me 05:21, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
Did any episode actually say that this was a timeloop? Either way, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that it is a time loop. In that case, we can probably assume that the Silence who Amy saw on the beach winessed the Doctor's death and reported all the details back to Madame Kovarian and the other Silence. They would then know that somebody in a space suit kills something that lllooks like the Doctor. We already know that they were mistaken about "who" was killed, so how would they have any clue who was in the space suit. Why wouldn't they just put Kovarian, a Silence, a cleric, or some random person who they kidnapped, into the space suit, and let them kill the Doctor. This still leaves no reason for the ridiculously complicated plan to create River, and success is much more likely if they use someone who is not in love with the Doctor. Also, they must remember a time when tthe Doctor's death was not a fixed point, because if it was always a fixed point then no timeline could exit where the Doctor urvives to go to Trenzalore and reveal his name. Icecreamdif talk to me 19:31, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
- No episode directly said the events were in a timeloop but we did we that this is the fact, because future Doctor brought both his companions and past self to Utah which allowed the Doctor to learn enough so that he would later summon his companions and past self to Utah. And based off very nature of such paradoxes it would be nigh impossible to attempt to engineer one without being involved in the loop itself because to create it would actually require involvement in the first place. The Light6 talk to me 00:42, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Because they saw it was River. Boblipton talk to me 19:38, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
I think Boblipton has to be right that they somehow knew it was River, either because they actually did see her in the suit or because they found out from the kind of historical record the crew of the Teselecta was using. We do know, after all, that the Silence must have access to time travel; Melody turning up in the 1960s proves that.
I'm not sure I'd agree with The Light6 that "the Silence played no part in its complexity" but the part they played might only have been to go along with it for the reason given above: not being able to tell what was and what wasn't important. In any case, much of the complexity appears to have no necessary connection to the events of the fixed point itself. Why was Melody in the 1960s at all? Being in Leadworth in the 1990s can, at least, be explained by the need to ensure Amy and Rory got together -- but why was she in the US in the 1960s? --78.146.179.32 20:35, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
They probably took her to the 1960s because they had to raise her in the correct environment, and the 60s are close enough but the Doctor never goes there(except to 1963-a lot). I mean, it would have been suicide to go to the 70s or the modern day, but UNIT wouldn't have even been a major threat in 69. The Doctor only knew to go there because of a a timeloop. Since the Silence created the fixed point they must have been aware of the Doctor's death before it was a fixed point, so the entire complicated plan was engineered by the Silence, even if in this timeline they only know about it because they saw their future selves do it. Even if they did realize that Amy and Rory's daughter killed the Doctor, that still doesn't explain why they had to make her a Time Lord. Couldn't they have just let Amy and Rory raisee their dagughter in peace, and then kidnap their grown human daughter from Earth?Icecreamdif talk to me 22:44, November 4, 2011 (UTC)
They didn't "make her a Time Lord". River has Time Lord DNA because she was conceived in the TARDIS whilst in the vortex. If the Silence knew that the person in the spacesuit at the time of the shooting was River, discovering that she has Time Lord DNA (however they did discover it) would make them think there was something important about that, even if there really wasn't. Also, they wanted to work intensively on conditioning and training their "weapon" right from her infancy, which they could not have done if they'd left her to grow up normally with her parents. They wanted an infant they could manipulate, not an adult. They'd probably be very reluctant to let their "weapon" be raised -- and therefore very strongly influenced -- by adult friends of the Doctor. --78.146.179.32 00:51, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
No. THhe Silence did make her a Time Lord. Being convived in the TARDIS made it ppossiblee for Melody to be made into a Time Lord, but she still would have been born a human if Kovarian hadn't experimented on Amy while she was prengant. They make that very clear in the scene where they realize that Melody has time lord DNA. How much training could you posssibly need to be lockd up in a space suit that is completely controlling your body to shoot an unarmed person who isn't even trying o fight back?Icecreamdif talk to me 06:09, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
That wasn't all they trained her for, as is made explicitly clear in Let's Kill Hitler. "My own bespoke psychopath," as the Doctor said. They trained/conditioned Melody to do much more than just occupy a spacesuit. They conditioned her to seek out the Doctor and to attempt to kill him and they trained her in a variety of skills she'd need to do that. That's why she attempted to kill him in Let's Kill Hitler and why she would have succeeded if she'd not used her remaining regenerations to overcome the effects of the poison. I admit that most of what they did seems unnecessary -- but they did do it.
As for making her a Time Lord, it isn't made clear in that scene. What's made clear is that Melody must have been conceived in the TARDIS while travelling through the vortex and that the Silence worked hard to build on the "one hell of a start" that that gave them. It's never said or hinted to what extent River's Time Lord abilities were the result of their work and how much were directly the result of the circumstances of her conception. All we know is that both were factors. --89.240.254.82 07:14, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
The Doctor said that they can't cook a Time Lord, and Vastra said that being concieved in the vortex gave the Silence one hell of a start. The implication is really that the Silecnce were only able to make her into a Time Lord because she was convieved in th vortex, but being convieved in the vortex wasn't what made her a Time Lord. Either way, we know they did something to Melody's DNA, which still would seem unnecessary for the purpose they needed her for. As for the training from Let's Kill Hitler, one still has to wonder why she needed that training just to be in the space suit. She wasn't suppossed to seek out the Docor by herself. She just did that after she escapedd from them because she had been conditioned to believe that the Doctor was a bad person. The Silence clearly didn't plan for Melody to try to kil him in 1930s Germany. If it was a time loop, then they would have already known that the Docctor had to die at Lake Silencio, so they wouldn't have bothered trying to kill him anywhere else.Icecreamdif talk to me 19:30, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
Icecreamdif, I'm not sure she was conditioned to believe the Doctor was bad (she showed no real sign of thinking he was) but she certainly was conditioned to kill him. As you say, because the Silence seem to have aimed at creating a fixed point at Lake Silencio on 22nd April 2011 and could compel River to participate, the training she obviously had been given doesn't seem necessary. Indeed, if their aim was to ensure the Doctor was killed at that place and time, Melody's attempt in 1930s Berlin would have messed things up for them very badly if it had succeeded -- and the only reason it didn't succeed was that she had a major change of heart. So, why was she trained the way she was? --89.241.65.18 08:29, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the Silence thought River would willingly kill the Doctor at Lake Silencio (being that if it is a time loop they would aim to have her in the space suit) so they train her to kill the Doctor but when it became apparent that she wouldn't do it of her own free will they put her in the spacesuit and forced her to do it simply to close the time loop and complete the fixed point even though that would result in their pastselves unnecessarily training River to kill the Doctor (paradoxes are fun aren't they?). The Light6 talk to me 09:02, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, the whole thing does suggest that the plan was changing over time -- in the timestream of the Silence, which may not synchronise with the sequence in which we saw the events. It also suggests that the Silence understood much less than they thought they did. In this case, it's not cockup versus conspiracy but both cockup and conspiracy! --89.241.65.18 09:43, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
How could they not have figured out that Melody would fall in love with the Doctor, or at least become friends with him? It doesn't exactly take amazzing skills of observation to notice that in addition to being in the space suit, she was also sitting on the beach with the Docttor.Icecreamdif talk to me 15:38, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
Even though they observed her presence on the beach, they might have misinterpreted it as meaning she'd somehow manoeuvered the Doctor into being in the right place at the right time to be killed. It wouldn't necessarily tip them off that things were going adrift. The Silence aliens don't seem to be tremendously bright -- presumably because they don't really need to be. --2.101.57.89 22:18, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
Presumably the ship in Amy's garden was a nestene ship, after all, the nestenes were the one who pretty much devised the scenario. However so far as I know the nestenes don't have time - travelling ability so a race from the alliance that did probably owned the ship. 94.72.209.160talk to me 18:02, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
As for the earlier dispute on why it had to be an astronaut suit that River was put in, perhaps the Doctor's fixed death was that it had to be an astronaut suit. The death could be a paradox, after all, in one of the episodes we got told that the death was only fixed because it happened at a tender point in time and a tender location. Of course, the only fixed point was in actual fact River in a space suit shooting a Teselecta. As all paradoxes must start somewhere, there probably is a reasonable explanation and I'm interested to see what speculation there is on this unknown reason. It may have something to do with the fact that in order to make the weapon regeneration proof they needed a time lord within the suit to find a weakness or something like that. We know that something called the Judas tree can kill a time lord, and considering how important it was in LKH I think it may be relevant to the plot. 94.72.209.160talk to me 18:02, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
Anything can kill a Timelord if they keep killing him before he regenerates. The astronaut suit thing doesn't really require an explanation since the Silents only rip off the TARDIS and other alien technologies and Silence are basically advanced humans, that's just a reasonable piece of equipment to be using.
I think going through all these trouble to create/raise River was because having a Timelord/Timelady involved was a necessary ingredient in creating that specific fixed point.
The Teselecta thing that's been said over and over here again isn't necessarily the fixed point. The fixed point could have easily been the Silence believing the death of Doctor at that period. Since we see what matters with fixed points are their large scale consequences, e.g. Pompeii, mars colonisation; the actual death could have been less fixed that we thought.--222.166.181.215talk to me 19:13, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
As for the burn marks, Den of Geek explain that. http://www.denofgeek.com/television/529293/explaining_doctor_who_the_big_bang.html 178.78.81.210talk to me 23:38, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
I'm not convinced by Den of Geek's explanation. The problem with it is that it's assuming (a) that the Nestene Consciousness somehow took a memory scan from the absent Amy and (b) that only whoever took the memory scan was at the house. The latter assumption, at least, seems highly questionable. The Alliance was a collection of peoples, some of whom are well known to be untrusting of others. It would seem very likely, in those circumstances, that more than one component of the Alliance would go on the mission. Limitations of space at the house and in the garden would mean they couldn't all go but a small number of representatives from two or three races, who could keep an eye on each other, seems more likely than just one. As has been said before, the burn marks looked about the size and shape of Dalek bases but Daleks (especially the new-style ones) would have trouble getting into the house without causing more damage than we saw. If the Daleks insisted on going (fairly likely), the others would probably put up with it -- but not let them go alone. Since time travel capability would be needed, that's another reason to suspect Dalek involvement, as the Den of Geek article suggests in the immediately preceding section. A representative of the Nestene Consciousness (say) going into the house, with a couple of Daleks keeping watch outside, would be a reasonable possibility. Not, though, the only one. --89.241.74.47talk to me 02:09, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
The Nestenes woll just have used the books and photos to devise the scenario. I doubt the Daleks went it was most likely the Cybermen or the Slitheen because they also have time travel tech. 178.78.81.210talk to me 13:28, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
Apart from the burn marks, the main reason I think the Daleks very likely to have gone is that I don't see them trusting the others -- they'd want to keep their beady eyestalks on them -- and I don't see the others being willing to risk a fight with the Daleks to stop them going. Nevertheless, we can't be sure and there's simply not enough evidence to make one hypothesis obviously better than another. In fact, there's simply not enough evidence to have a proper argument; we can really only put forward competing guesses that could easily all be wrong. --2.96.24.121talk to me 17:26, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
Since when have the Daleks left burn marks anyway? I have a feeling it was a ship. If someone can put an image of the lawn below it might help to deduce who's ship it might have been. Bear in mind, as well, that River Song mentioned a race we don't know - who could well have had memory scanning ability and the type of ship most likely to leave those marks. 77.86.108.251talk to me 12:07, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
Which "race we don't know" did River mention? One of the races mentioned, the Drahvins, hasn't appeared since the First Doctor (Galaxy 4, 1965) but I didn't catch a name I'd never encountered before. (Doesn't mean there wasn't one -- I could have missed it.) --89.240.248.204talk to me 14:02, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
The Haemogoths and the Chelonians. However this link claims they have appeared in novels since, so I stand corrected. http://www.guerrillageek.com/2011/03/doctor-who-season-5-annotations-10/ It also quite interestingly points out that RTD claimed in an interview that the cracks closed the rift. That gives a nice explanation as to why Torchwood 3 moved locations. 77.86.108.251talk to me 14:57, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I'd not, in fact, heard of the Haemogoths before and misheard it as "Haemovores" (Curse of Fenric). I looked them up, though, and they don't seem likely culprits for the breakin at Amy's house -- but not impossible. The Chelonians couldn't have got inside (too big and rigid) but could have stayed outside -- as could all kinds of others. The Drahvins could easily have got in and, if Amy ever found out about it, she'd not be at all pleased -- a bunch of militaristic (but good-looking) blondes rummaging through her belongings would get her fizzing!
On the rift: Do we know if it was only that rift that got closed? If others did, it might tie in with the Dalek invasion (The Stolen Earth/Journey's End) not having happened. The point about the Medusa Cascade was that there was a rift at its heart that would carry the effects of the "reality bomb" to all universes. --89.240.248.204talk to me 15:27, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
It's certainly possible, 89, and I contemplated the same thing when I read it myself. 77.86.108.251talk to me 15:57, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
It would certainly explain why the invasion seemingly still never happened after the reboot. I think it may also be an explanation for the Cyberman invasion not happening, too. Perhaps the Void Ship was also affected by the Cracks? Maybe all wibbly wobbly timey wimey incidents were deleted by the Cracks, and didn't even get restored after the reboot had occured? 87.102.117.106talk to me 11:39, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
Without going back and watching Army of Ghosts again, which I'm feeling too lazy to do right now, I can't remember the exact details but Torchwood built that tower in Canary Wharf to reach something that gave access to the void -- even if they didn't know that's what it did. It may not have been a rift (can't recall) but it was similar. --89.241.75.207talk to me 17:36, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
I'm also too lazy to go back in check, but I'm pretty sure that that was some kind of a hole in the universe where the void ship broke through.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:02, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
That makes three of us, because I'm also too lazy to go and check, but I expect there was some wibbly wobbly timey wimeyness behind why the void ship arrived on Earth. 87.102.117.106talk to me 22:06, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
I know the answer but I'm not going to tell you because then you'd complain about how it doesn't make any sense. Boblipton talk to me 22:44, January 7, 2012 (UTC)
Well, if it doesn't make sense, I can always buy myself an icecream to cheer myself up. --89.242.67.48talk to me 00:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
it was a black spot on the radar or something where the void ship came through. torchwood was interested because it was a space where nothing was. and i don't have enough time to check right now but here's a link to whoever is interested http://www.tv-links.eu/tv-shows/Doctor-Who--2005-_221/season_2/episode_12/ Imamadmad talk to me 05:06, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
I've (finally) taken a look at on Army of Ghosts/Doomsday again (on DVD) and there's not really much information. The void ship came through and created a "breach" that allowed the Cybus Cybermen to cross from "Pete's World" to this one. Torchwood could draw energy from the "breach" (unwittingly helping the Cybermen). When the Doctor and Rose rigged things so the Daleks and Cybermen were sucked back into the void, the "breach" closed -- and that's about it. --89.242.67.48talk to me 05:26, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
But there was probably still some wibbly wobbly timey wimeyness behind why the void ship came that could potentially have been erased by the Cracks. 87.102.117.106talk to me 10:56, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
hopefully not, since the point of a void ship is that it is removed from time and space; if something outside of time and space is still timey wimey then it would be horrifying to imagine anything not being timey wimey. --222.166.181.150talk to me 14:12, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
Well, maybe the hole it ripped in space has something to do with timeywimeyness. But I'm no expert, and if we're discussing the cyber-invasion we should do that on the "No Cybus Cybermen?" discussion, it's getting confusing having two debates on the same topic going on at once. 87.102.117.106talk to me 15:57, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
If you can follow Moffat's plots, that should be a stroll in the park by comparison. --89.242.74.218talk to me 16:49, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
Well, 87, that still wouldn't affect the void ship though, only the dimensional cracks it caused; Daleks would still have been in Canary Wharf. The Void ship is outside of time and space, it would be quite awkward to think that changing time affects something that's specifically said to be outside of time. --222.166.181.129talk to me 16:56, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
I've found this image for anyone who wants to speculate about the burn marks:
http://stomptokyo.com/scott/nerds/img/12_The_Pandorica_Opens_8-20100621-222829.jpg
Okay, as I said before, lets move the discussion about the Void Ship back to "No Cybus Cybermen?" because I've been thinking about why Melody had to be in an Astronaut suit...
Earlier on, I memtioned that perhaps it was to do with stopping the Doc from regenerating, and Icecreamdif corrected me; time lords can be killed in other ways. However what about in "The End of Time", where the Mastet was brought back using some kind of ring? Perhaps the Silense used Melody to perfect the weapon in order to ensure the Doctor could never be brought back? If they were quite knowledgable about time lords, which they most likely were, then this would make sense. 87.102.117.106talk to me 17:41, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
They'd not need to be very knowledgable about Time Lords, though they might be. Just knowing the Master was one and had been brought back would be enough. --89.242.74.218talk to me 17:46, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
I think there are multiple reasons for it, one of the primary reasons that could contribute the event being fixed point is that the birth of a human baby conceived in the TARDIS would be a part of the Doctor's timeline, and we know the Doctor does not like to interfere his own past actions regardless of the point being fixed or not; any other weapons/humans/etc would fall into the new "Time Can Be Rewritten" trap and the Doctor would do whatever he can to reverse it. Forcing a companion to do it would be difficult and the Silence might have already tried it and ended up with a Future Doctor from an abandoned timeline reversed it. --222.166.181.168talk to me 18:15, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
So do you agree with my theory about the mysterious resurrection ring? 87.102.117.106talk to me 18:42, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
There's really no suggestion of any sort that the Silence is that knowledgeable, nor is it sensible for the Doctor to risk the life of a past companion/friend to safeguard a resurrection item, more so after what happened to the Master; I think the Doctor would be slightly uncomfortable with the fact that he might turn into a hunger-driven human eating mutant. The resurrection ring is quite farfetched.--222.166.181.6talk to me 18:50, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
It's not clear that there was anything particularly special about the ring, anyway, except that it carried traces of the Master: "Something of him survived." What was important was that there were people willing to use those traces to bring him back and that they'd been provided with the knowledge to do so. The point made by 222 (that there are huge differences between what the Master would be willing to do and what the Doctor would be willing to do) is an extremely strong one. --2.101.62.55talk to me 20:45, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
But how would the Silence know that the Doctor wasn't prepared to do something like that? For all we know the only thing the Silence were aware of was that they had to dispose of the Doctor to prevent the question being answered. 87.102.117.106talk to me 21:07, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
But we do know that the Silence (well, at least Madame Kovarian anyway) knows the Doctor very well, anticipating his actions and knows his compassion is his weakness. I am quite certain that they know the Doctor wouldn't risk the lives of companions to safeguard resurrection items. Moreover, it's also quite unsensible to believe River killing the Doctor would prevent resurrection. The Master wouldn't likely have anticipated that he would be killed by humans, which is a lot less likely than being "accidentally" killed by Doctor, so the ring would have been quite pointless if it had no effect if the owner were murdered by a Timelord. --222.166.181.64talk to me 21:29, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
The Doctor was more than just "murdered by a time lord", he was killed by a time lord who had had lot's of experiments done to them. My guess is that the fact they had a Time Lord within an airtight suit wired up to a weapon somehow negated the effects of any resurrection object if anyone tried to use them. 87.102.117.106talk to me 22:59, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
The Doctor wasn't "murdered by a Time Lord" at all. River isn't a Time Lord. How she was packaged ("airtight suit wired up to a weapon" or whatever) is irrelevant to the question of "any resurrection object" -- at least, it's irrelevant without some pretty good technobabble to explain why it would make a difference. The writers had no difficulty providing the necessary technobabble for the poison that prevented regeneration, so they could have provided anti-resurrection technobabble, too. And they would have, in advance, if they'd wanted to -- it would have raised the stakes. Doing it now, to explain the fancy dress in retrospect, wouldn't raise the stakes (or anything else, except maybe a hollow laugh), because we already know the Doctor wasn't killed. --89.241.77.143talk to me 02:17, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
River is a Time Lord, she just isn't a Gallifreyan. Anyway, The End of Time wasn't very specific about how the Master's regeneration worked. However, based on what we saw, a bunch of the Doctor's friends would just have to throw his bow ties, a bunch of chemicals, and a tissue that had touched River's lips into a cauldron and the Doctor would ressurect, regardless of what happenned to his body. Still, they didn't even give us much technobabble during the Master's most recent ressurection. The space suit was suppossed to be a life support, and Melody regenerated a few months after she was seperated from it. Maybe she needed it to keep her alive. Then maybe they just gave it to her in 2011 since she can't breathe underwater, and they thought that she would look more bad-ass coming out of the lake.Icecreamdif talk to me 04:06, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
River is a human with some Time Lord characteristics. That doesn't make her a Time Lord. You can call her a Time Lord. That doesn't make her a Time Lord, either. It does, however, confuse matters wholly unnecessarily. --89.241.77.143talk to me 05:37, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
i wonder what the similarities there are between the dna of river, a human plus timelord, compared to meta 10, a part human part timelord. ps, it was stated in the show that river was human plus timelord, just to end the argument above. Imamadmad talk to me 12:22, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I have to agree that the names we have been using to describe River in this thread is not at all accurate. The Doctor has even made it clear that even his daughter/clone should not be called a Timelord, but at the same time, we can't call River a human because she has triple helix DNA, that's pretty much the furthest thing we can get from human or any Earth specie. --222.166.181.166talk to me 13:13, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
Well, back on the resurrection topic, bear in mind the Master's body had been burned before his followers could retrieve it. The Doctor's body was left for his companions to do what they want with it. Maybe there are other resurrection techniques? What about that thing River did in LKH? If the Silence weren't aware that she hadn't already done it, they might have known she had the ability and used the weapon to negate its effects? The ring might have come into it too, but I'm guessing that time lords have plenty of tricks up their sleeves when it comes to facing death, regeneration and resurrection being just two of them. The Silence needed to take this into consideration. 87.102.117.106talk to me 17:33, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that the thing that River did in Let's Kill Hitler was ever fully explained, but my impression was that it was only possible because River was still regenerating. Anyway, there are, of course, many other ressurection techniques. One can come back as a creepy skeleton-looking thing, use The Eye of Harmony, use the powers of the Keeper, posess someone, be "indestructible", have a weird ghost snake rise from one's ashes, posess someone else, try to use the eye again, or be ressurected by the Time Lords. You might notice a pattern as to which Time Lord cheats death the most.Icecreamdif talk to me 02:45, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
A masterly summary. --89.241.73.161talk to me 03:05, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
Hm, which time lord who always dies could you possibly be talking about? Still, I'm sure the Silence and Kovarian had taken all this into consideration, and, in my opinion, they used Melody in a space suit to combat this, and perhaps to make her look badass coming out of the lake. Thoughts? 87.102.117.106talk to me 17:35, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
From what happened in The Wedding of River Song, one of the purposes of the spacesuit was to ensure the gun got fired even if River managed to resist her "programming". The only way she managed to prevent the Doctor being shot (and thus caused the collapse of time) was to exhaust the gun's power, first. --89.242.64.17talk to me 18:17, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
But why bother putting River in a Space Suit in the first place?
We know that the Silence killed the Doctor to prevent the answer to the question. Wouldn't it be terrible to go to all that trouble to "silence" the Doctor, and then Amy finds a way to bring him back? I'm pretty darn certain they'd have took this into consideration. I'd definitely be surprised if despite knowing a lot about the Doctor they didn't possess the knowledge that Time Lords can be brought back extremely easily. Want an example? Look back at Icecreamdif's previous comment for just a few instances where the Master has seemingly 'died forever' and been brought back as easy as winking. 87.102.117.106talk to me 19:00, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
I just don't really see how putting Melody in a space suit can really prevent any of the examples that I listed. Of course, more often than not, the Master's ressurections were never fully explained. My personal favorite is how he survived Planet of Fire. He might as well have said "I'll explain later."Icecreamdif talk to me 21:27, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
Here are my two pence: The Silence (movement) want The Doctor dead. We know this. But we also know that time is not a straight line, and so remember the 'fixed point plan' at Lake Silencio was only initiated at the end of Closing Time. It was not always their 'grand plan', rather yet another attempt on The Doctor's life. I like to think Madam Kovarian came up with the Silencio plot, as she has exhibited sadism and would revel in having River kill him against her will. The Silence kidnap Melody, take her to America for conditioning (contrary to what many have said above, The Silence didn't land on Earth in The Stone Age solely to create a spacesuit; this would only have been the time from the conception of the idea of travelling into space to actually travelling there) and plan to use her to kill The Doctor any way she can. A Time Lord is preferable over any other species not least because they have a multitude of lives and so would have more than one chance to assassinate him. Tied to Madam Kovarian, the daughter of his best friend being his murderer is by far the cruelest fate The Silence could pin on him. Since we don't know his future, The Doctor may have sparked so much fear into his enemies that they would be willing to quite literally risk the fate of the universe to keep that silence on the Fields of Trenzalore. The Pandorican Alliance were the Doctor's fearful 'enemies' and so concucted a wild plot to contain him forever, unknowingly creating the very thing they feared (the cracks in time). Remember that until we know The Doctor's future and why The Silence want him... silenced... for all we know, The Pandorica was a last deperate attempt to contain him forever (since they would likely eventually discover he is still alive) that takes place from The Silence's point of view after the Silencio plot, as an alternative to their failed methods of assasination. Time is all over the place when time-travel is in the mix. Bless The Silence for trying to achieve a murder in its complexities! (Currently unsigned; Whitaker for the record)
First, there are some contributions (dated January 10, 2012) relevant to this in the discussion Silence in the Lodger. Second, "we also know that time is not a straight line" and "the 'fixed point plan' at Lake Silencio was only initiated at the end of Closing Time" don't really make sense, taken together. At the very least, you need to tell us "... at the end of Closing Time" in whose timeline. That's not to say you're wrong about it being one of several attempts. Third, you're almost certainly right that "the Silence didn't land on Earth in The Stone Age solely to create a spacesuit". They probably had the spacesuit made on Earth because (a) they were here, anyway, and (b) the Doctor is on Earth more often than he's on any other individual planet, so Earth's the most likely place to catch him. --2.101.54.163talk to me22:54, January 10, 2012 (UTC)
Ahh, well my point being that to The Doctor he has experienced The Silence's attempts on his life in the opposite order (or thereabouts) to how they were carried out from The Silence's point of view. Much like how he has experiences with River almost in reverse, "time is not a straight line" here means that he can experience a assassination plot before it has been initiated. I suppose its a complicated way of saying that to River it happens quite early on her timeline, to The Doctor it happens after The Pandorican attempt even though it may have been carried out by The Silence after they discovered he was still alive. Stay relative to the causal nexus and you may die. Whitaker, 23:57, January 10th, 2012 (GMT)
Thanks for the clarification. I think I now follow what you mean. (The language has a problem because it's built on the assumption that time is a straight line, rather than a "big ball of timey-wimey... stuff"!) Your idea of the events being in one sequence for the Silence and another for the Doctor does chime with what's been said recently in the "Silence in the Lodger" discussion. I won't duplicate that here but you ought to take a look at it. I can't help thinking that the Silence are making a bad mistake trying to cope with the complexities of time and time travel by using complicated plans. Putting the two sets of complexities together makes things even more likely to get fouled up. --2.101.54.163talk to me 01:06, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
