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{{ | {{archive|Panopticon archives}}[[category:design changers]] | ||
<!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> | <!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> | ||
==The issue== | ==The issue== | ||
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*'''CASE ONE: The underwritten page'''. In these cases, the page has no, or inadequately short, leads and synopses. If a picture is placed right at the start of the "Plot" section on such an underwritten page, the infobox will push it down. This can cause it to appear at a place other than where the editor intended. An example of such a page is ''[[The Happiness Patrol]]''. The solution here is easy: give the article a good and meaningful lead and a reasonable synopsis. | *'''CASE ONE: The underwritten page'''. In these cases, the page has no, or inadequately short, leads and synopses. If a picture is placed right at the start of the "Plot" section on such an underwritten page, the infobox will push it down. This can cause it to appear at a place other than where the editor intended. An example of such a page is ''[[The Happiness Patrol]]''. The solution here is easy: give the article a good and meaningful lead and a reasonable synopsis. | ||
*'''CASE TWO: Weird whitespace.''' Because the TOC/infobox forms a long block on the right side of the page, any extra whitespace within the first few paragraphs of the article will be exaggerated. Two cases in point are ''[[The Aztecs]]'' and ''[[Something Borrowed]]''. The TOC shift isn't '''making''' that whitespace. It was already there. It's merely highlighting it. The whitespace shouldn't be there, so the solution is to edit it out. | *'''CASE TWO: Weird whitespace.''' Because the TOC/infobox forms a long block on the right side of the page, any extra whitespace within the first few paragraphs of the article will be exaggerated. Two cases in point are ''[[The Aztecs]]'' and ''[[Something Borrowed (TV story)|Something Borrowed]]''. The TOC shift isn't '''making''' that whitespace. It was already there. It's merely highlighting it. The whitespace shouldn't be there, so the solution is to edit it out. | ||
*'''CASE THREE: When the first picture is put on the right.''' If the first picture is placed at the right, and it is on an underwritten page, this can force that first picture to appear all the way at the bottom of the TOC. Just to keep us in Hartnell territory, such an example is at ''[[The Edge of Destruction]]''. The simple solution is merely to edit the picture so that it's on the '''left'''. The effects of this can be seen at ''[[The Daleks]]'' or ''[[Fragments]]''. In terms of standard design theory, the first picture in the body should never have been placed at the right, anyway, because it should be "balancing out" the infobox. | *'''CASE THREE: When the first picture is put on the right.''' If the first picture is placed at the right, and it is on an underwritten page, this can force that first picture to appear all the way at the bottom of the TOC. Just to keep us in Hartnell territory, such an example is at ''[[The Edge of Destruction]]''. The simple solution is merely to edit the picture so that it's on the '''left'''. The effects of this can be seen at ''[[The Daleks]]'' or ''[[Fragments (TV story)|Fragments]]''. In terms of standard design theory, the first picture in the body should never have been placed at the right, anyway, because it should be "balancing out" the infobox. | ||
All of these problems are easily corrected by '''improving the article'''. Thus they are not, in my view, reasonable objections barring the permanent implementation of the TOC-at-right. | All of these problems are easily corrected by '''improving the article'''. Thus they are not, in my view, reasonable objections barring the permanent implementation of the TOC-at-right. | ||
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#--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 21:00, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | #--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 21:00, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | ||
#--[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revanvolatrelundar]] 21:07, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | #--[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revanvolatrelundar]] 21:07, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | ||
#--[[User:Nyktimos|Nyktimos]] 21:56, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | #--[[User:Nyktimos|Nyktimos]] 21:56, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | ||
#--'''[http://doctor-who-collectors.wikia.com/wiki/User:Tardis1963 <span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]''' 00:09, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | #--'''[http://doctor-who-collectors.wikia.com/wiki/User:Tardis1963 <span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]''' 00:09, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
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:It may be because of the display settings on the computer or something, but the Table of Contents doesn't look annoyingly large on the left, whereas clogging up the right side with the Table of Contents, the Infobox and any Tags ''does'' look bad. | :It may be because of the display settings on the computer or something, but the Table of Contents doesn't look annoyingly large on the left, whereas clogging up the right side with the Table of Contents, the Infobox and any Tags ''does'' look bad. | ||
::I'd be really interested to know what sort of browser/version you're using. The page seems to wok pretty well in most modern versions, but no page on this site works well with most versions of Internet Explorer. MSIE interprets the "clear" command different than just about any other browser, so every time we use a template that has a "clear" command in it — which is almost every time we use a tag like "stub" or "semi-protect" or the like —we're changing, at least fractionally, how a page looks in MSIE. At this point, though, we've embedded the "clear" command so liberally, that we have, by default almost, decided that we don't really care what our site looks like in MSIE. (I myself don't even have MSIE on my machine, and common wisdom says that MSIE is far too hacked/hackable to be anyone's primary browser anymore.) If you go to the following page, you'll see what ''[[The Brain of Morbius]]'' —a page that hasn't been altered to work with the right-TOC — looks like in a variety of browsers. [http://browsershots.org/http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Brain_of_Morbius Click here for a browser-by-browser comparison.] I can't see that it looks bad with Chrome, FireFox, Safari, SeaMonkey, Opera, Iceape, Shiretoko or Epiphany. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 23:47, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | ::I'd be really interested to know what sort of browser/version you're using. The page seems to wok pretty well in most modern versions, but no page on this site works well with most versions of Internet Explorer. MSIE interprets the "clear" command different than just about any other browser, so every time we use a template that has a "clear" command in it — which is almost every time we use a tag like "stub" or "semi-protect" or the like —we're changing, at least fractionally, how a page looks in MSIE. At this point, though, we've embedded the "clear" command so liberally, that we have, by default almost, decided that we don't really care what our site looks like in MSIE. (I myself don't even have MSIE on my machine, and common wisdom says that MSIE is far too hacked/hackable to be anyone's primary browser anymore.) If you go to the following page, you'll see what ''[[The Brain of Morbius]]'' —a page that hasn't been altered to work with the right-TOC — looks like in a variety of browsers. [http://browsershots.org/http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Brain_of_Morbius Click here for a browser-by-browser comparison.] I can't see that it looks bad with Chrome, FireFox, Safari, SeaMonkey, Opera, Iceape, Shiretoko or Epiphany. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 23:47, January 3, 2011 (UTC) | ||
#I agree with the two above me, it looked better before, clogging up the right side though with everything, looks to crowded, also I never had any complaints about long TOCs the always tell you what the page has, as soon as you get there, and thus know (or atleast have some idea) if your be interested in this page, its moved form, I find it doesn'y seem to have the same effect. [[User:General MDG 109|General MDG 109]] 7.55, January 4th, 2011 | |||
#It looks better with the TOC on the left; clogging the right side of the pages is a bad idea (even if you rearrange the pages) and there is no need to move the TOCs in the first place; big white spaces are not a big deal. Ultimately, I would dismiss this entire concept, as there is no issue to be fixed. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 16:02, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | #It looks better with the TOC on the left; clogging the right side of the pages is a bad idea (even if you rearrange the pages) and there is no need to move the TOCs in the first place; big white spaces are not a big deal. Ultimately, I would dismiss this entire concept, as there is no issue to be fixed. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 16:02, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
#Now that I have thought about it, it's not really needed. I agree with the above posts, it just clods up the right side of the page. There was nothing wrong with where it was before, bar some white space. Which is not really much of a problem. If a page is really long (which references can make it) it make the contents page long, and looks ridiculous down the side of a page in my opinion. Also, if we are to be consistent with this, that will mean rolling this onto every page that has a contents page on this wiki, even though that have two of three things, and will look out of place at the bottom of the infobox in the text does not come down pass the infobox of TOC. Instead of thinking how to clear put white space, which is some case is minimal or non existent, we should be focusing our efforts into trying to reduce the number of stubs on this wiki. But I'm sure whatever happens, the right decision will be made. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]] 16:08, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | |||
===Unsure=== | ===Unsure=== | ||
If the TOC is to function as a TOC then it should be at the top of the page. I think many regular editors (myself initially also) are fine with it being off to the right ''because'' we're all ''very'' familiar with how the pages are laid out. It is more a case of how a new reader will interpret the page, looking for a specific section, glancing through the page or reading the page top to bottom. | If the TOC is to function as a TOC then it should be at the top of the page. I think many regular editors (myself initially also) are fine with it being off to the right ''because'' we're all ''very'' familiar with how the pages are laid out. It is more a case of how a new reader will interpret the page, looking for a specific section, glancing through the page or reading the page top to bottom. | ||
As it is at the moment, on pages with some sort of intro, the intro is read, followed by the TOC and then the rest of the content, with the infobox balanced to the right with summary information, which is a fairly good format for a new reader. With the TOC pushed below the infobox we're making the reader get through the intro and synopsis to get to the TOC. | As it is at the moment, on pages with some sort of intro, the intro is read, followed by the TOC and then the rest of the content, with the infobox balanced to the right with summary information, which is a fairly good format for a new reader. With the TOC pushed below the infobox we're making the reader get through the intro and synopsis to get to the TOC. | ||
I do agree with General MDG 109 that when the TOC is placed to the below right amongst a lot of text it can be somewhat overwhelming for the reader, when you're bombarded with a lot of textual information, all the long articles showcase this. | I do agree with General MDG 109 that when the TOC is placed to the below right amongst a lot of text it can be somewhat overwhelming for the reader, when you're bombarded with a lot of textual information, all the long articles showcase this. | ||
I'm also concerned for a consistent reader experience, that shifting the TOC around between articles could bring. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:31, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | I'm also concerned for a consistent reader experience, that shifting the TOC around between articles could bring. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:31, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
===If it's not broken, don't fix it=== | ===If it's not broken, don't fix it=== | ||
I belive that the table of contents should stay where it is. I have been to other wikis where this has been changed and I have been left beffuddled and it takes me ages to find what | I belive that the table of contents should stay where it is. I have been to other wikis where this has been changed and I have been left beffuddled and it takes me ages to find what I was looking for. Also it will make our wiki stand out, as we will not conform with the other wikis, but I'm sure that Tangerine duel and the admins will make the right choice. [[User:Son of Icthar|Son of Icthar]] 11:49, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:Agreed. Ultimately, it is unnecessary to move the TOC to the right, because there is not a need to do so in the first place. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:59, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | :Agreed. Ultimately, it is unnecessary to move the TOC to the right, because there is not a need to do so in the first place. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 15:59, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
Judging by votes for, I'd say there does seem to be a consensus for there being a problem.--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 16:11, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | Judging by votes for, I'd say there does seem to be a consensus for there being a problem.--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 16:11, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:Well, as of now, the option with the most votes is pro-right-TOC, so I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at the notion that there's a "consensus for there being a problem". | :Well, as of now, the option with the most votes is pro-right-TOC, so I'm not quite sure how you've arrived at the notion that there's a "consensus for there being a problem". Though consensus is not always the same thing as a majority, the majority of respondents so far are in support of the change. '''[[User:CzechOut|<span style="background:blue;color:white">Czech</span><span style="background:red;color:white">Out</span>]]''' [[User talk:CzechOut|☎]] | [[Special:Contributions/CzechOut|<font size="+1">✍</font>]] 17:22, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:There's a more votes for right-TOC, consensus that there is still a problem...or something like that. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 17:23, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | :There's a more votes for right-TOC, consensus that there is still a problem...or something like that. --[[User:Bold Clone|<span style="color:blue">'''Bold'''</span>]] [[User Talk:Bold Clone|<span style="color:gold">'''Clone'''</span>]] 17:23, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | ||
:I agree with this more than moving all ToC's to the right, they are meant for ease of access and under the infobox is harder to get to than next to it (roughly). Only if the ToC is causing a problem should it be moved to the right. [[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revanvolatrelundar]] 17:25, January 4, 2011 (UTC) | |||
I think you misunderstood Czech, I was saying there was a problem before in comparison to now. As you can see above, I'm pro-right. :)--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small> 17:31, January 4, 2011 (UTC) |