Talk:Joan Redfern: Difference between revisions

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== Seventh Doctor novel ==
Should Joan Redfern as the one base off the one in the possible discontinue Seventh doctor novel. i mean they  have the same name and were tecnically lover of a then human doctor[[User:Ghidorafour|Ghidorafour]] [[User talk:Ghidorafour|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:30, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
:Because [[Joan Redfern (TV character)]] and [[Joan Redfern (novel character)]] each meet a different Doctor, this wiki considers them as two separate people. I hope that answers your question. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:21, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
fair enough i suppose[[Special:Contributions/24.215.188.166|24.215.188.166]]<sup>[[User talk:24.215.188.166#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:15, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
== Question ==
== Question ==
This page is not needed as it is already under the title [[Joan Redfern (TV character)]] saying exactly the same--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]] 21:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This page is not needed as it is already under the title [[Joan Redfern (TV character)]] saying exactly the same--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]] 21:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


::It doesn't say the same thing, and they are two different characters. While one is based on the other they react and interact with Smith and other characters in a different way. Joan in the novel interacts with [[Bernice Summerfield]] in a very different way to Joan in the TV story. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 22:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
::It doesn't say the same thing, and they are two different characters. While one is based on the other they react and interact with Smith and other characters in a different way. Joan in the novel interacts with [[Bernice Summerfield]] in a very different way to Joan in the TV story. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] 22:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
== Merger ==
Having different pages for Joan Redfern's two appearances made sense with the state of the wiki in 2007 and 2013, but since [[Thread:232143]]'s positive ruling on novelisation validity, we have had quite a lot of practice at constructing elaborate "according to another account" arrangements. Is it time for a merger of this page and her equally-awkwardly-dabbed twin [[Joan Redfern (novel character)]] into the singular [[Joan Redfern]] at long last? – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 07:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
== New main image ==
Now that we're treating both TV and novel Joan as one and the same, I propose we give her a new infobox image so that a) the arguably more recognisable TV iteration is up front and centre, and b) to better satisfy our [[Tardis:Guide to images|image policy]].
<gallery widths="215" spacing="small" columns="3">
Joan Redfern novel.jpg|Current
Joan Redfern TV 1a.jpg|#1a
Joan Redfern TV 1b.jpg|#1b
Joan Redfern TV 2.jpg|#2
Joan Redfern TV 3.jpg|#3
Joan Redfern TV 4a.jpg|#4a
Joan Redfern TV 4b.jpg|#4b
Joan Redfern TV 5.jpg|#5
Joan Redfern Human Nature.jpg|#6
</gallery>
[[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
: Personally, I prefer the current image, as it communicates that we don't prioritise the television version of the story. I know that Joan is pretty recognisable from her television appearances, but in terms of stories, they're on equal footing (the television story being a two parter, they're still one story), thus I feel it is compliant with [[T:NPOV]]. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
:: Well… at the very least we should choose an image to put in the "Meeting the Tenth Doctor" section. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
::: Added a couple of images. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 20:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
'''Hold on''': let's finish the John Smith debate before we start a similar one here. It's better to have fewer of these debates open at once so users can easily find the ones that are open. Once John Smith is done, we can resume here. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Ok John Smith has been finished so we can begin discussion for Joan. One quick note, if the current image is to be kept, it should be cropped a little bit better at the bottom (i.e. remove some of the shoulder area). [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:32, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
:: I quite like #5, which is nicely sharp and has got a lot of emotion to it. I think the poses of the two illustrations are suboptimal, unfortunately, although if we decide to stick with an image from the novel, #6 would have my preference over the current ones. Of the remainder, I like #1a the least. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 19:12, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
::: While my first pic would be #6 for the reasons I've previously stated, if I ''had'' to choose one of the pictures from the television story, it'd be either #2 or #6. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Very much in favor of #2 or #3. A push for an illustration as opposed to the actor for the purposes of trying to illustrate NPOV is inherently pushing a POV in my honest opinion. [[Special:Contributions/73.135.193.157|73.135.193.157]]<sup>[[User talk:73.135.193.157#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:Well, yes, it's pushing a POV. Namely, the Neutral one. Regardless, I recall policy explicitly stating that if we have cover art vs diagetic picture, we must choose the latter, see [[T:IUI]]. (There was a talk page article where there was an exception made for a character whose only diagetic appearance was a particularly poor illustration, in comparison to some good cover art, but this isn't the case here, and I can't recall what it was.) [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
:: That's actually outdated — nuancing that black-and-white policy was one of the changes which went through in the brief window between my rise to adminship and the death of the Forums. Under new and improved policy, an image being from a cover is a ''strike against it'' but can very much be outweighed by other factors, as more than the occasional ad-hoc exception you mention. (You may recall this being a factor in [[Talk:Bernice Summerfield]].)
:: Though it's worth noting that the Joan Redfern illustrations here are from, well, ''illustrations'', not a cover. That's a rather different thing.
:: In any case, this is ''not'' intended as a "TV always wins" precedent, but both of the illustrations on off here are sufficiently subpar to mean that '''I hereby rule in favour of using a [[Jessica Hynes]] pic for the infobox.''' (Naturally, one or more of the illustrations should be used in thumbnail form in the main body of the page.) I'll tentatively implement #2 for now since that has the most support so far, but #5 would still be my preference and I am happy for more people to chime in on which Hynes picture they like best. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 19:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:38, 22 December 2022

Seventh Doctor novel[[edit source]]

Should Joan Redfern as the one base off the one in the possible discontinue Seventh doctor novel. i mean they have the same name and were tecnically lover of a then human doctorGhidorafour 04:30, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Because Joan Redfern (TV character) and Joan Redfern (novel character) each meet a different Doctor, this wiki considers them as two separate people. I hope that answers your question. Shambala108 05:21, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

fair enough i suppose24.215.188.166talk to me 08:15, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

Question[[edit source]]

This page is not needed as it is already under the title Joan Redfern (TV character) saying exactly the same--Skittles the hog 21:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't say the same thing, and they are two different characters. While one is based on the other they react and interact with Smith and other characters in a different way. Joan in the novel interacts with Bernice Summerfield in a very different way to Joan in the TV story. --Tangerineduel 22:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Merger[[edit source]]

Having different pages for Joan Redfern's two appearances made sense with the state of the wiki in 2007 and 2013, but since Thread:232143's positive ruling on novelisation validity, we have had quite a lot of practice at constructing elaborate "according to another account" arrangements. Is it time for a merger of this page and her equally-awkwardly-dabbed twin Joan Redfern (novel character) into the singular Joan Redfern at long last? – n8 () 07:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

New main image[[edit source]]

Now that we're treating both TV and novel Joan as one and the same, I propose we give her a new infobox image so that a) the arguably more recognisable TV iteration is up front and centre, and b) to better satisfy our image policy.

WaltK 19:58, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I prefer the current image, as it communicates that we don't prioritise the television version of the story. I know that Joan is pretty recognisable from her television appearances, but in terms of stories, they're on equal footing (the television story being a two parter, they're still one story), thus I feel it is compliant with T:NPOV. 20:07, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Well… at the very least we should choose an image to put in the "Meeting the Tenth Doctor" section. WaltK 20:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Added a couple of images. 20:37, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Hold on: let's finish the John Smith debate before we start a similar one here. It's better to have fewer of these debates open at once so users can easily find the ones that are open. Once John Smith is done, we can resume here. Shambala108 02:49, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Ok John Smith has been finished so we can begin discussion for Joan. One quick note, if the current image is to be kept, it should be cropped a little bit better at the bottom (i.e. remove some of the shoulder area). Shambala108 15:32, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I quite like #5, which is nicely sharp and has got a lot of emotion to it. I think the poses of the two illustrations are suboptimal, unfortunately, although if we decide to stick with an image from the novel, #6 would have my preference over the current ones. Of the remainder, I like #1a the least. Scrooge MacDuck 19:12, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
While my first pic would be #6 for the reasons I've previously stated, if I had to choose one of the pictures from the television story, it'd be either #2 or #6. 21:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Very much in favor of #2 or #3. A push for an illustration as opposed to the actor for the purposes of trying to illustrate NPOV is inherently pushing a POV in my honest opinion. 73.135.193.157talk to me 16:41, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, yes, it's pushing a POV. Namely, the Neutral one. Regardless, I recall policy explicitly stating that if we have cover art vs diagetic picture, we must choose the latter, see T:IUI. (There was a talk page article where there was an exception made for a character whose only diagetic appearance was a particularly poor illustration, in comparison to some good cover art, but this isn't the case here, and I can't recall what it was.) Najawin 19:33, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
That's actually outdated — nuancing that black-and-white policy was one of the changes which went through in the brief window between my rise to adminship and the death of the Forums. Under new and improved policy, an image being from a cover is a strike against it but can very much be outweighed by other factors, as more than the occasional ad-hoc exception you mention. (You may recall this being a factor in Talk:Bernice Summerfield.)
Though it's worth noting that the Joan Redfern illustrations here are from, well, illustrations, not a cover. That's a rather different thing.
In any case, this is not intended as a "TV always wins" precedent, but both of the illustrations on off here are sufficiently subpar to mean that I hereby rule in favour of using a Jessica Hynes pic for the infobox. (Naturally, one or more of the illustrations should be used in thumbnail form in the main body of the page.) I'll tentatively implement #2 for now since that has the most support so far, but #5 would still be my preference and I am happy for more people to chime in on which Hynes picture they like best. Scrooge MacDuck 19:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)