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Discussion

Currently, a number of pages use of {{docpic}} and similar templates to produce rotating slideshows of images in the infobox. This is better than just having a single image in the infobox as it allows us to better represent the subject matter when they have multiple incarnations. However, it leads to some very annoying issues.

Firstly, it can cause the loading of pages to be very slow on less powerful computers and, even after loading, remain stuttery and cause the slowdown of the entire page. Secondly and perhaps more quantifiable and significant is how these templates display on mobile. Take a look at the Doctor's page with the mobile skin. As you can see, images appear stacked on top of each other, taking up a lot of vertical space. This leads to none of the actual infobox being visible when semi-collapsed which defeats the whole point of having a semi-collapsed state. The effect is worse on mobile devices where screen real-estate is at a premium.

The solution is to replace these with tabbed galleries. These are already in place on a handful of pages, such as Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde, and entirely fix both of the issues I presented above. Notice how the images appear side-by-side on mobile. If they cross the width of the screen, they become scrollable horizontally which is far easier to navigate and takes up far less space. Creating this effect is easy, simply requiring placing something like

|image       = <gallery>
Jekyll.jpg|Henry Jekyll
Hyde.jpg|Edward Hyde
</gallery>

in the infobox. This is also much more extendable than the slide show templates, allowing new images to be added and multiple images to be introduced on new pages much more easily. It also removes any issues with adjusting timings (which can only be done via CSS) as this is no longer relevant.

I hope that this proposal can be passed quickly as I feel it is relatively trivial, but we'll see. Thoughts? Bongo50 ☎ 20:49, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

This is straightforward enough, and so objectively a quality of life improvement, that I wouldn't have minded if you'd just gone ahead and done it without polling the community! Enthusiastic and unequivocal support. – n8 (☎) 20:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with n8, and the proposal is well-reasoned and sound. I've occasionally experienced issues with the rotating galleries glitching or loading slowly, so I'd welcome this. Making a tabbed gallery also allows for each image to have a caption, even if it's simply "1" "2" "3" etc. in the case of the Doctors, which is somewhat handy for newcomers.

Quick question: take the Doctor's main tabbed gallery then, would the first image be of the most recent Doctor, or would it always be of the first Doctor with users able to tab through them chronologically? FractalDoctor ☎ 21:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I was thinking that either chronological order or reverse chronological order is best. I'm leaning towards reverse chronological order. Bongo50 ☎ 21:04, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Consider me in support of this common sense change. Pluto2 (talk) 21:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Hand on heart, I have absolutely no hesitancy in extending my support for this proposal. Furthermore, tabbed galleries will also mean we won't have to create somewhat complex templates everytime a new character with multiple incarnations is Wikified.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

21:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I think reverse chronological order might be the best way to go in the case of the Doctor's page - so newcomers always see the most recent Doctor first (even though other pages tend to go chronologically). Similarly with the Master, due to the amount of them? What do other people think? Also, will the same images be used for the time being? FractalDoctor ☎ 21:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I think the same images would be used for now, as actually changing the photos is a discussion for the relevant page's talk page. Anyways, I also strongly support this, {{docpic}} is awkward and always irked me, tabs are much more elegant and user friendly. Personally, I'd lean towards chronological order even if this shows the First Doctor first, but I feel like there might be a way for some tabs to present the last one by default? I've seen this on other wikis, though I've no clue how it works… Chubby Potato ☎

Are you able to link to a wiki where this works? I can see if it's feasible to implement here. Bongo50 ☎ 22:02, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've seen it elsewhere, but I had in mind Zelda Wiki for one. In fact, they also separate types of images (artwork, renders, models and sprites), prioritizing in that order, but prioritizing the most recent game in each of those. Chubby Potato ☎ 22:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I support the tabbed galleries. I've seen them used with great success on other wikis and it would be preferable for a user to select images at their leisure than watch the current Docpic and the like which slowly shifts through images in a random order. MrThermomanPreacher ☎ 22:31, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Complete support for this on my end. The slideshow is not only slow, it is extremely buggy. Not only do I have to wait to see a certain image, the template sometimes reverts back to the first image in the row every time it gets to a new image. Danniesen ☎ 09:11, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Is there a quick way to identify all the pages which use the current {docpic} style slideshow? I came across Dalek Prime, and therefore wonder how many would need updating if this proposal went ahead. FractalDoctor ☎ 15:10, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

They should all be here.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

15:43, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Are those just the Time Lord ones, or is that every page that would need changing? I seem to have found an outlier - Dalek Prime - if so. FractalDoctor ☎ 16:02, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

It appears so, but any others should be here, unless if uncategorised.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

16:22, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Is it worth - or are we even able to - discuss the actual images here? For what it's worth, I think the Wiki should stick with screenshots or promotional photos of the Doctors as seen on TV (so, not illustrations or comic drawings, etc.) FractalDoctor ☎ 15:36, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I 100% support this, I've never much liked the slideshows and doing this would allow you to just look at the one you want to get a look at instead of having to wait for it to come around. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Time God Eon (talk • contribs) .

I support this. Docpic I saw as compromise to discussions around which image to use, but was never totally happy with it. The tabbed galleries will let people explore the wiki more. --Tangerineduel / talk 12:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Docpic was a cool idea, but it never seemed to work right for me, always seeming to hang up on the same image and never getting to some of them. I'm all for any replacement. Schreibenheimer ☎ 13:35, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

I fully support obliterating all these slideshows, but I think we should keep them all in chronological order, left to right. It seems confusing and weird for most characters to be chronological but the Doctor and Master to be exclusively reverse-chronological (why, because they're still appearing in new stories? or because they've passed some arbitrary threshold of significance, or number of incarnations? should we make Romana reverse-chronological too? or the Eleven, or Morbius, or Rassilon? Another issue is that the Master's timeline is already ambiguous and complicated, featuring no numbers, so a reversed chronology would be even less intuitive, especially for new/casual readers - even moreso if Delgado ever gets a 12, because then he'd be appearing after 11+ later incarnations...!). We should pick one direction and apply it consistently. If technically possible, displaying the rightmost tab (with Fourteen) on loading would be slightly preferable, but I don't see any problem at all with having it as Hartnell forever (or even Fugitive if she's ever added to the infobox).

And, is this a good time to talk about relaxing the ridiculous "in-universe" rules to allow promo photos? Wiki infoboxes are exactly the kind of use that promo photos are created for - they're official, high-quality shots, specifically designed to show off a character clearly in good lighting. Virtually any article could be improved immediately by replacing its infobox screenshot with a promo photo where available. PintlessMan ☎ 09:11, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Eh, keeping infobox images strictly in-universe makes more sense. It’s weird to have the images follow a different set of rules than the text. On Stranger Things Wiki, we have a loose protocol, in which promo pics/concept art may be used in some cases, but the default should be in-universe. TheGreatGabester ☎ 17:30, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

What about promotional pictures that are borderline? Like the oft-seen image of Tennant as 14. It's not from an in-universe story, but it's him the very place he's just regenerated from 13, and he's arguably "in character". I have a feeling, for the most part, there will be good enough quality "in universe" images/stills available anyway, but I feel there should be some wiggle room in case it's ever needed or better suited. One thing I am against is the idea of using artwork, even officially licensed artwork, like those Jeremy Enecio portraits. FractalDoctor ☎ 18:14, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Apologies - just realised there's a proposed thread which suggests debating this policy. But it sort of fits in here too. Will call it a day on this part of the discussion for now though if admins wish to wait until a thread is created for it later down the line. FractalDoctor ☎ 18:19, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I do like those portraits, but it's not worth bending a rule to an extreme degree, just to use them on the Doctor infobox. Though, perhaps they could work as a main page template? TheGreatGabester ☎ 14:31, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Further to the discussion of replacing {docpic} [where I think there's a good consensus of agreement], I'd just like to point out the Timeless Child page as being a great example of what it would look like for the Doctor and the Master (and a handful of others). The infobox seems to be able to have 8 numbers visible before it would scroll across, meaning it'd be very efficient to scroll through and see each incarnation at a glance. FractalDoctor ☎ 18:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Conclusion

This was always one of the straighforward ones; I think we have a pretty clear consensus for the basic policy change, and don't need to keep taking up a slot. Moving forward, slideshow infobox images will be replaced with tabbed galleries. Furthermore, as the consensus seems to lean in that direction, chronological order will be used instead of reverse chronological order, at least as a baseline. If this is felt to be too much of a hindrance for The Doctor and The Master, specific exceptions may be worked out at Talk:The Doctor and Talk:The Master — one avenue might be to make use of the "image2=" variable, putting a static image of the current incarnation at the top and the tabbed gallery of past incarnations underneath; but this is simply a suggestion. (EDIT: See here for an attractive proposal from fellow admin User:Bongolium500!)

Other points of note:

• Where available and practical, incarnation numbers should be used for the tab names (as with the Doctor). When incarnation numbering is uncertain (as with the Master, but also e.g. Borusa), the default should be "A, B, C" onward instead of numbers, to prevent any misconception that those are incarnation numbers; for example, Roger Delgado is "A", but he is not "the 1st Master". On a case-by-case basis, other nomenclatures such as short titles may be used if they don't exceed the width requirements of the infobox.

• As with {{docpic}} and its brethren, there is no requirement for every incarnation of a given character to be featured. Exact cut-offs can be figured out on a case-by-case basis; for example, "The Doctor" should straightforwardly stick with the "mainline" TV incarnations without wading into Timeless Children, Curators, or alternative incarnations, but different criteria may apply with characters whose BTS history is not so oversignified, and/or who have fewer incarnations overall, such that including all their forms is less of an imposition.

• As illustrated by Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde, the tabbed system can be used for many more situations than just Time Lords with multiple known incarnations. However, pending another discussion, this should only be used for characters — or objects! — with genuinely different "forms" of some sort; don't go using it to try and represent e.g. outfit variants, or both the child and adult version of Amy Pond. (I believe that the system could usefully be used to handle recasts like Kate Stewart or indeed the First Doctor, but I believe this falls outside the scope of this discussion and I will suggest it separately at a later stage.)

• At first implementation, the image files currently used in the slideshow templates may be employed, but this is suboptimal as, for technical reasons, they are narrower than regular images on the Wiki should be according to T:GTI. Discussions to replace them with more fitting images are actively encouraged, and where practical, it should not require discussion to replace a narrow slideshow-image with whatever image is currently used as a given incarnation's bespoke infobox image.

• The templates should not be deleted, even though they will no longer be used in the main namespace, so as to prevent the experience of browsing past revisions of these major pages from being marred by a broken link.

Thank you, everyone!