Talk:Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks): Difference between revisions

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== Dab ==
{{ArchiveList}}
== Scope ==
What exactly is the scope of this page? There are many stories through the 1980s which refer to other incarnations as "Dr. Who". Some of these are from a nebulous early period before there were any clear differences between Hartnell and Cushing's versions of the character, so they could be applicable to both pages. How are we drawing the distinction?


Should this page be "Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)"? '''[[User:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">Tardis1963</span>]]''' '''[[User talk:Tardis1963|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white">talk</span>]]''' 09:05, April 7, 2012 (UTC)
I see a couple options. There are three groups of stories: (A) "stories which explicitly feature Hartnell", (B) "stories which explicitly feature Cushing", and (C) "stories which aren't explicit". As I see it, there are several options for how we combine or separate these groups.
* No, because he appeared in two films, not just the one, and may or may not have been the character intended to be featured in the planned Stanmark radio series. [[Special:Contributions/70.72.211.35|70.72.211.35]]<sup>[[User talk:70.72.211.35#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:36, January 20, 2013 (UTC)


== PARRALEL UNIVERSE??? ==
* So far we've been putting (A) and (C) on [[First Doctor]] and covering (B) on its own page, but that was a unique scenario as a result of Cushing's invalidity, which now no longer applies.


Maybe this is doctor who from a parralel universe like in Pete's world with the cybermen but not nessesarily that one but just a different universe from the actual doctor's universe. --[[User:Lakeside31|Brian]] <sup>[[User talk:Lakeside31|talk to me]]</sup> 17:07, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
* A more even-handed approach might be to cover (A) and (C) on [[First Doctor]], and also cover (B) and (C) on [[Dr. Who]]. But this still erects an [https://doctornolonger.tumblr.com/post/177314951580/excerpts-from-doctor-who-and-the-daleks-the-first anachronistic division] between Cushing and Hartnell.
* Speculation is fine, but it needs to be backed up by a TV episode, novel, short story or some other licensed fiction to be included here. [[Special:Contributions/70.72.211.35|70.72.211.35]]<sup>[[User talk:70.72.211.35#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:38, January 20, 2013 (UTC)


== Updates ==
* A third option would be to cover (A), (B), and (C) on [[First Doctor]], with [[Dr. Who]] as a redirect to [[The Doctor]]; and then cover (A) on [[First Doctor (An Unearthly Child)]] and (B) on [[Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)]]. I think that's the fairest approach and best long-term structure for our coverage, but I understand if it might be a bridge too far for those less familiar with the diversity of 1960s ''Dr. Who'' media.
Elsewhere in this very wiki, Richard Bignell has debunked the "third movie" rumour, so I have added this. Also, the Nothing at the End of the Lane article on the radio show is ambiguous as to whether they intended it to feature Dr. Who, or a new version of The Doctor played by Cushing (considering they originally wanted another actor - Karloff - to play the role and Cushing was actually a last-minute choice, after the pilot episode script had been written.) [[Special:Contributions/70.72.211.35|70.72.211.35]]<sup>[[User talk:70.72.211.35#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:38, January 20, 2013 (UTC)


== "Dr." ==
I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 22:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
:: I personally feel like the most intuitive thing would be to cover (A), (B) and (C) on [[First Doctor]] and (B) on [[Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)]] (whose rename to [[Dr. Who]] I am not convinced should have been carried out without a discussion!). While an (A)-exclusive [[First Doctor (An Unearthly Child)]] page is a nice idea in theory I don't think it would have much practical use beyond making an abstract point about the equal validites of "Cushing-only" and "Hartnell-only" perspectives, and I am also skeptical that you'll ever get a consensus in that particular direction, though we'll see.


Our pages for characters usually leave off honorifics, so shouldn't this be "Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)"? [[User:Klisz|Klisz]] [[User talk:Klisz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:11, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
:: Furthermore, I feel like there is a degree to which (B) isn't a wholly coherent thing. ''[[Dr. Who and the Daleks (theatrical film)|Dr. Who and the Daleks]]'' is quite arguably intended as a variant account of "the First Doctor" on par with the Target or Cigarette Sweets version — but the authorial intent on something like ''[[Dr. Who & the Mechonoids (comic story)|Dr. Who & the Mechonoids]]'' is altogether different! While it'd be hard to formalise, I would really like to refine the above into a solution where we cover "classic-era material where Dr Who is played by Peter Cushing" on [[First Doctor]] to a greater extent than we would stuff like ''…and the Mechanoids'' or ''House on Oldark Moor'', which are more directly "The Cushing Doctor(TM) ''as opposed'' to the First Doctor, whether in televised or 60s-EU-flavour". The distinction between (B) and (C) (let alone between A and B) may be anachronistic when talking about the 60s stuff, but it's not anachronistic when referring to latter-day "Cushingverse" efforts, and we need to cover ''those'' fairly, too. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|]] 22:58, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


== Ian and Barbara ==
:::Scrooge, that's very sensible and a good application of the precedent nailed down at [[Talk:Magnus (Divided Loyalties)]]; and I agree this rename may have been hasty – it's certainly what prompted these thoughts of mine. But by bringing up ''…and the Mechanoids'' and ''House on Oldark Moor'', you may have bolstered the case for [[First Doctor (An Unearthly Child)]] more than you realise. You point out that those stories – let's call them (B') – demand coverage of (B) separately from (A), since they feature "The Cushing Doctor(TM) ''as opposed'' to the First Doctor"; but is there not also (A'), like ''[[The Five Doctors (TV story)|The Five Doctors]]'', where the First Doctor(TM) is definitely portrayed as a Time Lord: "''as opposed'' to the Cushing Doctor"? – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


In an official book that I own but can't find at the moment, it is said that the movies regarding Dr Who are based on in-Whoniverse books, written by Ian and Barbara, based upon their travels. We should look for a reference and add this point in as it explains the way its fits within the Whoniverse.<br>
:::Upon further reflection, [[First Doctor (An Unearthly Child)]] might not be the best name for a page covering (A'). I propose instead [[First Doctor (The Three Doctors)]], since that's the first time the First Doctor appeared and was characterized definitely as a Time Lord. [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|]]) 17:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
[[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 13:07, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
:It would have to be a [[Tardis:Valid sources|valid source]]. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:13, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
::It took me ages to find the title of it and I turned my room upside-down but eventually I found it. Unfortunately, it's not a canon book and when I Googled the title, it seems you've already discussed it, which is a shame. I just remembered it at the back of my mind and thought it was left out. Never mind though! :D<br>
::http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:I_Am_the_Doctor:_The_Unauthorised_Diaries_of_a_Timelord <br>
::[[User:Thefartydoctor|<font color="blue">The</font><font color="silver">Farty</font><font color="red">Doctor</font>]] [[User talk:Thefartydoctor|<small><sup><font color="green">Talk</font></sup></small>]] 19:47, August 29, 2013 (UTC)


 
:::Having just stumbled on this conversation, I'll add my thoughts. I think I prefer an (A) and (C), and (B) and (C) approach. I don't necessarily think that a [[First Doctor (An Unearthly Child)]] or [[First Doctor (The Three Doctors)]] would be the best choice. But I also make no claims of being an expert on the divisions and overlap of these two versions of the character, nor how the Wiki handles cases like these. Also yeah, as much as I personally enjoy the page being called Dr. Who, I fully understand thinking it was rushed or that it should go back to [[Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks)]] with Dr. Who being a redirect to [[The Doctor]]. [[User:Time God Eon|Time God Eon]] [[User talk:Time God Eon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:16, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
== Cushing Interview? ==
 
RE: this point...
 
In an interview, Peter Cushing stated that he believed that his human incarnation of the Doctor was canon, and that his film version of the Doctor and the television Doctor were bridged together by the Celestial Toymaker. His theory was that his Doctor is a future incarnation kidnapped by the Toymaker, who "wiped his memory and made him relive some of his earlier adventures."
 
Do we have a definite source for this? This feels like we need to verify this.{{Unsigned-anon|195.162.112.147}}
 
:You are absolutely correct. I've added a "source needed" tag. Thanks for catching this. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:12, August 27, 2015 (UTC)
::I have the interview text, but not the source...
 
::''Q: The character you played in those two films was very different from the character on the TV show. Were those films a complete remake?''
 
::''A: Well I’ll tell you something I thought once. I just said I didn’t watch TV, but one of the few episodes of the ‘Dr. Who’ series that I saw was one that involved a kind of mystical clown (‘The Celestial Toymaker’? – ed.), and I realised that perhaps he kidnapped Dr Who and wiped his memory and made him relive some of his earlier adventures. When Bill Hartnell turned into Patrick Troughton, and changed his appearance, that idea seemed more likely. I think that’s what happened, so I think those films we did fit perfectly well into the TV series. That would not have been the case had I taken the role in the TV series.''
 
::Hope this helps! --[[User:Pluto2|Pluto2]] ([[User talk:Pluto2|talk]]) 00:16, November 22, 2016 (UTC)
 
==Invalid tag? Splitting? Or something?==
Isn't it a bit weird that the page as a whole still bears the Invalid tag even though there is a sizable portion of the page that is taken up by what's known about him in ''valid'' stories? I can understand (indeed, I support) making the page primarily about the character in his own canon of stories, but then we shouldn't put “Within the Doctor's universe” in the first half of the biography section, which gives the impression that the page is first and foremost about him as he exists inside the DWU. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:30, June 11, 2019 (UTC)
: Indeed it is! This is "currently" being discussed in the forums as you know but for anyone else wishing to participate in the discussion the link is [[Thread:232095|here]]. --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:21, June 11, 2019 (UTC)
:: Oh, is it? Sorry — while knowing of that thread, I'd forgotten how it started, and I misremembered it as being more broadly about the matter of how to cover the Dalek Movies. Thanks! --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:25, June 11, 2019 (UTC)
::: No worries! Note my use of inverted commas as the issue hasn't been commented on for months. --[[User:Borisashton|Borisashton]] [[User talk:Borisashton|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:28, June 11, 2019 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 21:22, 6 August 2023

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Archives: #1

Scope[[edit source]]

What exactly is the scope of this page? There are many stories through the 1980s which refer to other incarnations as "Dr. Who". Some of these are from a nebulous early period before there were any clear differences between Hartnell and Cushing's versions of the character, so they could be applicable to both pages. How are we drawing the distinction?

I see a couple options. There are three groups of stories: (A) "stories which explicitly feature Hartnell", (B) "stories which explicitly feature Cushing", and (C) "stories which aren't explicit". As I see it, there are several options for how we combine or separate these groups.

  • So far we've been putting (A) and (C) on First Doctor and covering (B) on its own page, but that was a unique scenario as a result of Cushing's invalidity, which now no longer applies.

I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts. – n8 () 22:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I personally feel like the most intuitive thing would be to cover (A), (B) and (C) on First Doctor and (B) on Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks) (whose rename to Dr. Who I am not convinced should have been carried out without a discussion!). While an (A)-exclusive First Doctor (An Unearthly Child) page is a nice idea in theory I don't think it would have much practical use beyond making an abstract point about the equal validites of "Cushing-only" and "Hartnell-only" perspectives, and I am also skeptical that you'll ever get a consensus in that particular direction, though we'll see.
Furthermore, I feel like there is a degree to which (B) isn't a wholly coherent thing. Dr. Who and the Daleks is quite arguably intended as a variant account of "the First Doctor" on par with the Target or Cigarette Sweets version — but the authorial intent on something like Dr. Who & the Mechonoids is altogether different! While it'd be hard to formalise, I would really like to refine the above into a solution where we cover "classic-era material where Dr Who is played by Peter Cushing" on First Doctor to a greater extent than we would stuff like …and the Mechanoids or House on Oldark Moor, which are more directly "The Cushing Doctor(TM) as opposed to the First Doctor, whether in televised or 60s-EU-flavour". The distinction between (B) and (C) (let alone between A and B) may be anachronistic when talking about the 60s stuff, but it's not anachronistic when referring to latter-day "Cushingverse" efforts, and we need to cover those fairly, too. Scrooge MacDuck 22:58, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Scrooge, that's very sensible and a good application of the precedent nailed down at Talk:Magnus (Divided Loyalties); and I agree this rename may have been hasty – it's certainly what prompted these thoughts of mine. But by bringing up …and the Mechanoids and House on Oldark Moor, you may have bolstered the case for First Doctor (An Unearthly Child) more than you realise. You point out that those stories – let's call them (B') – demand coverage of (B) separately from (A), since they feature "The Cushing Doctor(TM) as opposed to the First Doctor"; but is there not also (A'), like The Five Doctors, where the First Doctor(TM) is definitely portrayed as a Time Lord: "as opposed to the Cushing Doctor"? – n8 () 17:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
Upon further reflection, First Doctor (An Unearthly Child) might not be the best name for a page covering (A'). I propose instead First Doctor (The Three Doctors), since that's the first time the First Doctor appeared and was characterized definitely as a Time Lord. – n8 () 17:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Having just stumbled on this conversation, I'll add my thoughts. I think I prefer an (A) and (C), and (B) and (C) approach. I don't necessarily think that a First Doctor (An Unearthly Child) or First Doctor (The Three Doctors) would be the best choice. But I also make no claims of being an expert on the divisions and overlap of these two versions of the character, nor how the Wiki handles cases like these. Also yeah, as much as I personally enjoy the page being called Dr. Who, I fully understand thinking it was rushed or that it should go back to Dr. Who (Dr. Who and the Daleks) with Dr. Who being a redirect to The Doctor. Time God Eon 22:16, 26 June 2023 (UTC)