Talk:Queer representation in Doctor Who: Difference between revisions

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 Not my place to talk if it should be queer or LGBTQ+, so I won't chime in on this part. Just wondering if we could make it "in Doctor Who related media" as opposed to just "in Doctor Who", since we cover all of the spinoffs too as I mentioned above. [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:51, June 12, 2020 (UTC)
 : Good point, though it should either be "in ''Doctor Who'' and related media", or else "in ''Doctor Who''-related media" with the hyphen. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:57, June 12, 2020 (UTC)
+:: Voicing my support for ''LGBTQ+ representation in Doctor Who and related media''. Though the examples of Queer in past usage are valid and I wouldn't personally take offence if kept as Queer representation, I would say that outside of an academic landscape... LGBTQ+ does tend to be the more frequently used term when its comes to referring as a community/umbrella-ing term. Queer has tended to be more of a personal term of identification. (though not always, as ''Queers dig Time Lords'' shows). Either way, we land on whether to keep Queer or change LGBTQ+, we definitely need to amend ''in Doctor Who'' to ''in Doctor Who and related media'', as we now have notable examples of representation from ''Class'', ''Torchwood'', ''The Diary of River Song'' and in some manner, solidified what was planned to be an instance within ''Sarah Jane Adventures''. [[User:JDPManjoume|JDPManjoume]] [[User talk:JDPManjoume|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:16, September 4, 2020 (UTC)
+:::I agree on the need to change the name to ...Doctor Who-related media. I think Doctor Who and related media is a little too broad. With the hyphen at least we're still holding it within the Doctor Who universe.
+:::In situations like this I sometimes look to how other wikis deal with things like this but have struggled a little bit to find any wikis that actually have a page like ours. Wikipedia's page [[wikipedia:Media portrayal of LGBT people]] is very clinical likely to seem a bit not inclusive.
+:::Looking to other wikis there's the [[w:c:riordan|Riordan Wiki]] (of the Percy Jackson & the Olympians series etc) they also just go for [[w:c:riordan|LGBT]] in their intro have ''(also known as LGBTQ + , LGBTQA +, LGBTQIA +, LGBTQIA2S + , or LGBTQIA2P +)''.
+:::Going with the Fan Show's LGBTQ is perhaps the best way out for the naming and then putting something like the Riordan wiki has at the top of the page so we can cover everything, while still having a workable title. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 14:37, September 17, 2020 (UTC)
+::::Hey so, it's been well over a year now. Can somebody maybe finally come to an official ruling on this? [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:20, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
+::::Well over several years now. Again, stating my desire for ''LGBTQ+ representation in Doctor Who and related media.'' as a page name (with an appropriate redirect kept on Queer representation). I think with no clear objections against a rename, it would be suitable to do so at this time. <br><span style="background:purple; border:1px solid #777777; padding:1px 3px 1px 3px; margin-left:4px; font-size:.9em;'''<!---moz-border-radius:1ex;--> border-radius-topleft:1ex;border-top-left-radius:1ex; border-bottom-left-radius:1ex; -moz-border-radius-bottomright:0ex; -moz-border-radius-topright:0ex;">[[User:JDPManjoume|<span style="color:white> JDPManjoume </span>]]'''<span style=background:black;padding:2px;color:#f2f3f4>Regular Editor</span>&nbsp;[[User talk:JDPManjoume|<font color="#ffffff" title="Talk to me">☎</font>]]&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/JDPManjoume|<font color="#ffffff" title="See what I've been up to">✍</font>]]</span>     <span style="border: 1px solid #2f2cb8; padding:1px; border-radius-topright:1ex;border-top-right-radius:1ex; border-bottom-right-radius:1ex; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:0ex; -moz-border-radius-topleft:0ex; background-color:#ececec; color:#2f2cb8;font-size:.88em;font-family: 'Trebuchet MS', Gadget, 'Arial Rounded MT Bold','Abadi MT Condensed Extra Bold','Gill Sans Ultra Bold','Arial Black',sans-serif;"> 17:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
+:: I'm still fairly opposed to the "Queer"->"LGBTQ+" shift. "Queer" is a perfectly good umbrella term, and corresponds to "queer studies" etc.; moreover the trend of 'sanitisation' towards the acronym infamously plays into various exclusionary movements. With all respect to Jack and others who have negative associations, "queer" is not an objectionable term that needs to be shoved under the carpet; certainly it's been used pejoratively by some, and the feelings of those with such associations are valid, but no more or less than, well, "gay". As such, I would prefer that the Wiki ''not'' be seen to join that particular dogpile, even if using the acronym in and of itself would (obviously) be unobjectionable.--[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 == James Dreyfus ==
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 On a semi-related note, would this be grounds enough to create a new section on the page detailing situations like this, since Dreyfus would now be the second individual involved with DW to be called out for this sort of behaviour, after [[Gareth Roberts]]? [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:34, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
-: I've shadow browsed the internet for a bit, and I think that https://t.co/KIVvlydtNa?amp=1 is the closest I've gotten. But yes, the general vibe seems to be, "We're not gonna say anything, but we are subtly gonna move him over here and not put him in anything else."
+: I've shadow browsed the internet for a bit, and I think that https://www.bigfinish.com/news/v/equality-and-diversity-at-big-finish?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=equality_and_diversity_statement&utm_content=news is the closest I've gotten. But yes, the general vibe seems to be, "We're not gonna say anything, but we are subtly gonna move him over here and not put him in anything else."
 : As for the section, sure, I'm down. Always good to be honest. Two questions though: What should we define "called out" as specifically? Does it have to be a news outlet or can it be a twitter post?
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 But back to the main point, what's your critera for calling out? [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:37, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
 ::... How was Cassandra transphobic? She mentioned being a boy once, but that's it. And hearsay doesn't seem good cause to slander John Barrowman. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 18:41, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+As I said, I'm not trying to slander them. I love both of their work in the DWU and such. If I was trying to slander them, I would've just said they're transphobic and left it at that. It's clear that both have largely moved on and are at least showing some support. Now PLEASE, can we focus on technical aspects and such? [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:45, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+:I don't see why the calling out of cast and crew would belong on this page. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 18:51, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+I was clarifying something for WaltK. And again, it's not a call out. It's me saying, "Hey, these guys did something iffy once, but they're improving". If anything, I'd actually be angry if someone tried to compare them to Roberts and Dreyfus. Hell, my username is based off ''Torchwood'', which I love to bits. Now please, may we focus on the editing of this page now? [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:59, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+:Like I said, I don't see why this belongs on a page about LGBT representation in the Doctor Who Universe. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 19:00, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+::By rights, Dreyfus should have been brought up on the page even before the transphobia stuff, by virtue of him being an openly gay actor who played an incarnation of a certain reoccurring Time Lord. With that in mind, perhaps just bringing him up with a paragraph with a similar format to the one about Roberts would suffice? I would also suggest taking the part about [[Derek Jacobi]] and combining it into a sweeping "The Master has notably been portrayed by two openly gay actors" paragraph, with the part about Dreyfus' transphobia being brought up at the end. Although mentioning Jacobi (who's done nothing wrong) in the same breath may not be appropriate.
+::As for Davies and Barrowman, I'd argue that maybe we should only bring up bigotry among the cast and crew if said cast and crew are openly and unapologetically intolerant (like Roberts and Dreyfus), and not times where individuals were not aware nor had consciously intended any harm. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:25, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+That makes sense. I'm on board. [[User:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived]] [[User talk:Never Forget The Day The 456 Arrived|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:29, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+:That seems far more reasonable. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 19:36, July 8, 2020 (UTC)
+== Max Adrian and Hartnell ==
+Lifted from the page and moved to here;
+"The fact that his character never shared any scenes with the First Doctor in the serial sparked the myth that William Hartnell refused to work alongside him because of his sexuality (as well as the fact that he was Jewish). Their lack of scenes together were purely coincidental, however, and no record exists of Hartnell possessing such intolerant views."
+It is highly worth having sources pinned down before recommitting this to the page. We currently have no source for such a myth, or a source to state that any such myth was sparked by the lack of scenes, or indeed any such perceived rationale of bigotry within such a myth. Additionally, we don't have any sources to commit the negative either with any certainty. As such, it is dangerous ground to have this uncited in entirety, both in respect to Hartnell's estate and Adrian's estate whatever the case may be. All I've seen is that DWM 482 is cited as the source that Hartnell became "difficult during production, refusing to speak to actors Max Adrian or Francis de Wolff". Which means it looks at present as though we are the sole source of claiming such a myth and any pushback against a perceived myth. [[User:JDPManjoume|JDPManjoume]] [[User talk:JDPManjoume|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:53, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
+: My apologies. The rumour was first cited within the "myths" section of the page for ''[[The Myth Makers (TV story)|The Myth Makers]]'', and it's been on that page for years without objection. I know that's not an excuse for the lack of sources, but my (clearly incorrect) rationale was that "if it's good enough for that page, then it's good enough for this one". [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:27, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
+== Fan Criticism Section ==
+Let me preface this by saying that I am not a member of the LGBTQ community so take what I say with a grain of salt. While I think it's fair to acknowledge the feelings of fans, I am concerned that this section leans too heavily on the opinions of a handful of people on twitter. Anyone can go on twitter and say whatever they want but it doesn't mean they represent the opinions of a majority of fans. Not to mention that people can tweet anonymously without having to prove they are a member of whatever community they say they're from. Were the twitter accounts this page links to vetted to make sure these people are who they say they are? I just think if we're going to have a section like this, it should be held to a high standard. Otherwise, anyone can link to any random tweet they come across and say it's a legitimate criticism. [[User:BastianBalthazarBux|BastianBalthazarBux]] [[User talk:BastianBalthazarBux|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:18, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
+:: Having reviewed the section, I don't think there is cause for concern about the usefulness of the whole section: on close inspection, only the last paragraph appears to be cited to "random" Twitter users, with most other statements linked to essays and the like, which are very much acceptable sources for this sort of thing. But that doesn't mean you aren't right to flag potential misuse of the section to give undue weight to individual Twitterites, yes. If it becomes necessary to use tweets to cite "fan opinions" (as opposed to the opinions of specific people of interest), a minimum requirement should be to have multiple people saying the same thing, thus forming a sample of evidence that this is an opinion shared by a wider group of people. The statmeents currently cited to individual tweets should either be edited to be better-sourced, or removed.
+:: All that being said, as a side-note… this isn't really relevant to the main thrust of the discussion, but it really isn't the done thing to question/ask people to "prove" that they are a member of the queer community. Queerness is a matter of self-identification, so by definition, someone identifying themselves as gay, genderqueer, etc. should be understood to be, and treated as such, incontrovertibly, until such a time as they themselves state otherwise. <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 23:26, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
+:::I understand. I did not mean to imply that we should go around asking people if they really are part of the queer community. But if we are going to cite someone's opinion, it does help to know for certain that they are representative of how a large number of people in that community feel. [[User:BastianBalthazarBux|BastianBalthazarBux]] [[User talk:BastianBalthazarBux|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:27, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
+== Alpha Centauri and Eldrad? ==
+Since Alpha Centauri is, IIUC, non-binary and Eldrad is, IIUC, transgender, shouldn't they be included in the classic show portion of the page?  There's also suggestions that Marco and Giuliano from Masque of Mandragora are gay, although I'm not sure they were intended to be seen that way. {{unsigned|74.71.18.228}}
+: Well, Eldrad is only as transgender as {{Gomez}} or the [[Thirteenth Doctor]] — an alien being whose gender is variable between [[regeneration]]s. Likewise Alpha Centauri seems to have been intended as a case of alien concepts of sex and gender not matching Earth orthodoxy. In both cases, it's a very different deal from representation of human-style transness, and we'd be hear all night if we listed all aliens who don't fit into the gender binary on this page. (Most [[Dalek]]s use the pronoun "it", but they aren't "non-binary representation" in the same way [[Calypso Jonze]] is, to say the least.)
+:
+: That being said, Classic ''Who''<nowiki>'s</nowiki> of aliens with "nonstandard" genders was certainly a factor in unfolding queer readings of the series. So I do think Alpha and Eldrad could be discussed. However, due to the above concerns, you'd have to specifically establish that real-world relevance. I'm sure some of the books and essays cited across the page talk about the importance of Alpha and Eldrad as stepping stones; could some be found and cited? <span style="color: #baa3d6;font-family:Comic Sans;">[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']]</span> <span style="color: #baa3d6;">[[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]]</span> 19:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
+:: Actually, really recently, Alpha Centauri was finally treated more as nonbinary (or given those connotations) in the ''Peladon'' audio story ''[[The Poison of Peladon (audio story)|The Poison of Peladon]]'', where they ask River about her pronouns and River angrily corrects another character for using "she" instead of "they".
+:: That said, they still fall into the queer-coded ''aliens'' camp. Given everyone in their species is described by the Third Doctor in the same way, they wouldn't be ''trans'' (in real world terms) because they wouldn't have had any gender assigned at birth.
+:: None of this reading would belong anywhere except this page, of course, and perhaps Alpha's BTS section, with some good sources for a trans-informed reading of this character (as [[user:Scrooge MacDuck]] details above).{{User:SOTO/sig}} 00:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
+== Controversy (from opponents of LGBTQ+ rights) section ==
+This section, that covers the backlash from critics who, let's just say, don't take too kindly to gay and/or trans people's existence all too much, was added by me way back, and I wanted to check if it was okay to, a) keep the section, and, b) to update it with the more recent, public bad faith backlash against ''[[The Star Beast (TV story)|The Star Beast]]''? [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:29, 9 April 2024 (UTC)