Talk:Saxon Master

	Archives: #1

Disguises/Alias

Should "Razor" be listed under "Main aliases" along with Harold Saxon? Or would it be worth maybe adding a "Disguises" section to the infobox? (I note that this would also be particularly useful for Delgado, Ainley and Dhawan's incarnations as they also featured in stories where they were in various disguises for long periods of time.) I know we have a comprehensive list on its own page, but it could be useful and efficient to also list these on each incarnation's individual page too. FractalDoctor ☎ 20:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I think that aliases and disguises are fundamentally the same and should be treated as synonyms for our purposes. Thus, Razor is best placed as one of his "Main aliases" --because it's what he went by for several years in-universe. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 02:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image

Just want to cover the possible options for infobox images. As it stands, there are three general aesthetics for the 'Saxon' Master: Prime Minister Chic, Bottle Blonde, and Beard-y.

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  (0) Prime Minister Chic (gremlin edition)

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  (1) Prime Minister Chic

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  (1b) Prime Minister Chic, cropped

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  (2) Bottle Blonde

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  (3) Bottle Blonde, but Scary

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  (4) Bottle Blonde shooting hand lasers

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  (5) Beard-y

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  (5b) Beard-y (cropped)

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  (6) Beard-y, but Smiling

Obviously, there are other options, but these were the first ones that came to mind. My thought is to go with something in the Prime Minister Chic area, since that was his primary TV appearance, but I (personally) have a preference for Beard-y. Feel free to add other options. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 03:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I like the first one, but I've uploaded a cropped version. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 11:04, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I quite like #1 and #5 myself. #1b seems like an unnecessary crop.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

13:40, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I've added a more policy-compliant crop of #5, and also "#0" — the image I'd added previously, which gives us an example of The Smile (which is if anything more associated with the PM look than the Beardy look), although ideally we'd need a higher-resolution of this shot. Of the current options, #1b has my preference all the same, but if we could find a high-res version of #0, or another Smiling Saxon shot, I might favour that. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 13:46, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

@Epsilon. Given that this is the image we use as an example of a properly cropped infobox image, I'd disagree that 1b's crop is unnecessary. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 13:50, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I think you'd struggle to find any images with such a crop that are actually used on the Wiki, and dozens of images with less of an extreme crop have been continually chosen by admins. Perhaps, instead of trying to make an iamge adhere to an example no others uses, we should change the example?

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

13:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Until then, per T:BOUND, we should abide by the guideline. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 14:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

T:BOUND also covers current practise and precedent. To exclude those factors is a breach of T:BOUND in of itself.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

22:07, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

That's at odds with the whole nickname discussion from a few weeks ago; putting nicknames in quotation marks between a character's first and last names was everywhere on the wiki, but you pointed out a policy that said that that shouldn't be the case and said that it wasn't accepted practice because there was at least one person against it.

In this instance, I've always followed this rule and have seen it enforced by admins in the past. Jack "BtR" Saxon ☎ 22:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Well now all since the image policy reform, we can have better crops. :)

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

13:29, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Naming of this Page

I want to propose changing the name of this Master's page to "Saxon Master", which aligns with what he's called in the behind the scenes of Masterful, and additionally makes it clearer which incarnation this refers to, since there are two incarnations of the Master introduced in Utopia. TheSpaghetOutcast ☎ 05:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea! After all, every one of his TV appearances references his Saxon identity, right up to the end of his life, when he still feels he's marked himself as Britain's "former Prime Minister".

Moreover, as mentioned, [[The Master (Utopia)]] is unnecessarily confusing: even though the War Master already technically doesn't need this disambig, they both debuted in that same series 3 story. Even just the Grandma Connolly precedent tells us [[The Master (Utopia)]] simply won't do.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 05:42, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I support Saxon Master. This is also the name the fanbase has come to know him as. That, and Simm Master, but we should avoid actor names on the pages. Danniesen ☎ 11:15, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

It's true that The Master (Utopia) is confusingly ambiguous, and the fact that "Saxon Master" is used widely behind the scenes gives this proposal good grounding. But I will support the rename if and only if it's explicitly not a precedent-setting decision. Future users citing "Saxon Master" as precedent for alias-based incarnation names without reference to additional determining factors (like behind the scenes usage) would open a slippery slope, as already illustrated by PintlessMan's suggestion of "Keller Master" at Talk:The Master (Terror of the Autons). And that's a slope I'd rather we not go down! – n8 (☎) 20:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I fully support changing this Masters page to "Saxon Master" as soon as possible Cousin Ettolrhc ☎ 20:46, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I support the naming of this page as "Saxon Master". It's what a lot of people know him as, it's used in behind the scenes material too (which is more than can be said for "Spy Master" even though that's used for Dhawan's page). FractalDoctor ☎ 21:15, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I’m also voicing full support for ‘Saxon’ Master, but in contrast with N8 I would say say BTS usage OR significant fandom usage should support such a name. At present I have doubts that ‘Keller’ Master would pass for Delgado, but I don’t want this decision being used to BLOCK that rename happening either. Pro ‘Saxon’ Master. Let’s make it happen! NoNotTheMemes ☎ 08:01, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I also support "Saxon Master". In fact, of all the newly split Masters in need of names, I think it's the best one. Entirely synonymous with the character, easily identifies him, a good page name and a good in-universe name. Chubby Potato ☎ 08:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

In light of Chubby Potato's suggestion at Talk:The Master for a consistent schema for when to use or omit quotation marks from Master incarnation alises, I'd like to change my vote to "Saxon" Master specifically. I'll note that NoNotTheMemes already voted for ‘Saxon’ Master rather than ‘Saxon Master’, so with Mr Potato, that makes three votes. – n8 (☎) 16:29, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I, too, would alter my vote and agree with "Saxon" Master.FractalDoctor ☎ 23:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Everyone seems in full agreement that The Master (Utopia) is a sub-par name for this page, even if Jacobi's Master is at War Master. I think this is exceptionally true given that Simm's presence in this story is merely a post-regeneration business, rather than being a main presence. For this reason, and the vast abundance of Harold Saxon's presence in this incarnation's tenure (see how even as far as his S10 reveal calls back to him being the "former Prime Minister") I'll move this to the proposed name of Saxon Master.

As an afternote, I know I'm not addressing the question of [[Saxon Master]] vs [["Saxon" Master]], but this proposal is also under discussion on usage for Tremas Master and to Bruce Master/The Master (The TV Movie), so perhaps we should have an over-arching discussion on what to do with these three scenarios all at once, instead of letting it delay this needed rename. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 18:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

The overarching discussion already exists at Talk:The Master#How to refer to each incarnation of the Master. Although, even pending the result of that discussion, given the vote in this discussion was 4 "Saxon" Master vs 3 Saxon Master, I'm not sure why the latter name was chosen – n8 (☎) 19:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Naming of this page, volume 2

Hard disagree on the proposed rename of "Prime Master". In sci-fi, "prime" suggests either the main/original universe, or the "real world" universe. The DC Database wiki uses both in the case of Prime Earth and Earth-Prime, respectively. Even the more unwieldy "Prime Minister Master" would be better and more intelligible as a title in my book than the somewhat unclear pun. The "main world" definition would apply to every televised Master and the majority of audio appearances of the character, not just John Simm, and also, the Harold Saxon version is heavily involved with an unmade alternate timeline in Last of the Time Lords and The Story of Martha anyway. As his wife uses the surname of the identity he created on Earth, I see no good reason to remove the name Harold Saxon or just Saxon from the title altogether.

On top of this, I would cosign User:SOTO and User:Chubby Potato's rationales above in #Naming of this Page from when it got changed from "The Master (Utopia)". -- Tybort (talk page) 16:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I find the name "Prime Master" unfortunate. On paper, it is a good spin on "Prime Minister", but, like you said, in sci-fi circles "prime" has a well known meaning that would end up being extremely confusing if used to name this page. So, in short, I agree it shouldn't be used to name this page.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

18:00, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Echoing the above. I think in this instance, Saxon Master works fine as is. — Fractal Doctor @ 18:55, 24 December 2023 (UTC)