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== Season format == | == Season format == | ||
This season is described as having a unique format because the entire season consisted of a single story. However, in spite of being titled as a single story in 14 parts, there are clearly 4 distinct stories and an overarching story for the entire season. This means the season actually bears more similarity to [[Season 16]] and even [[Season 8]] than it does to [[Children of Earth]] and [[Series 3 (Torchwood)|Miracle Day]]; as the two [[Torchwood (TV series)|Torchwood]] seasons did not have "sub-stories". | This season is described as having a unique format because the entire season consisted of a single story. However, in spite of being titled as a single story in 14 parts, there are clearly 4 distinct stories and an overarching story for the entire season. This means the season actually bears more similarity to [[Season 16 (Doctor Who 1963)|Season 16]] and even [[Season 8 (Doctor Who 1963)|Season 8]] than it does to [[Children of Earth]] and [[Series 3 (Torchwood)|Miracle Day]]; as the two [[Torchwood (TV series)|Torchwood]] seasons did not have "sub-stories". | ||
[[User:Craigysa|Craigysa]] [[User talk:Craigysa|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:03, January 1, 2014 (UTC) | [[User:Craigysa|Craigysa]] [[User talk:Craigysa|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:03, January 1, 2014 (UTC) | ||
* It may have been filmed as four distinctive tales, but the story of the trial is so overarching that I would call it a single one. [[Season 16]] doesn't even mention the Key much in some of its tales - [[The Androids of Tara (TV story)]] for example. --[[User:Silent Hunter UK|Silent Hunter UK]] [[User talk:Silent Hunter UK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:38, January 2, 2014 (UTC) | * It may have been filmed as four distinctive tales, but the story of the trial is so overarching that I would call it a single one. [[Season 16 (Doctor Who 1963)|Season 16]] doesn't even mention the Key much in some of its tales - [[The Androids of Tara (TV story)]] for example. --[[User:Silent Hunter UK|Silent Hunter UK]] [[User talk:Silent Hunter UK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:38, January 2, 2014 (UTC) | ||
:* In ''Androids'', the the desired segment of the key is found very early but is confiscated. One of the major themes of the story how the Doctor and Romana will escape without leaving the segment behind. [[User:Craigysa|Craigysa]] [[User talk:Craigysa|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:44, January 5, 2014 (UTC) | :* In ''Androids'', the the desired segment of the key is found very early but is confiscated. One of the major themes of the story how the Doctor and Romana will escape without leaving the segment behind. [[User:Craigysa|Craigysa]] [[User talk:Craigysa|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:44, January 5, 2014 (UTC) | ||
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: I meant precisely what I said: that we consider [[The Mysterious Planet (TV story)]] a story and have done from the start. We just… objectively do. It has a story page (individual episodes of serials e.g. ''[[The Feast of Steven]]'' do not), and its dab term says "story". It's also fairly ''intuitively'' a story in the [[T:VS]] sense — things definitely happen in it. We wouldn't throw it out for "not being a story" if ''The Mysterious Planet'' had somehow come into existence without the other ''Trial'' installments attached. ''The Mysterious Planet'' is "a story" — unless the proposal is to merge all the installments into one giant page (bad idea, IMO!), I don't see that changing. | : I meant precisely what I said: that we consider [[The Mysterious Planet (TV story)]] a story and have done from the start. We just… objectively do. It has a story page (individual episodes of serials e.g. ''[[The Feast of Steven]]'' do not), and its dab term says "story". It's also fairly ''intuitively'' a story in the [[T:VS]] sense — things definitely happen in it. We wouldn't throw it out for "not being a story" if ''The Mysterious Planet'' had somehow come into existence without the other ''Trial'' installments attached. ''The Mysterious Planet'' is "a story" — unless the proposal is to merge all the installments into one giant page (bad idea, IMO!), I don't see that changing. | ||
: Whether we can, from this, derive that ''Trial'' as a whole is ''not'' a story… I don't know. It seems to me that for a weird case like this, we ''could'' say that we have "a story made up of stories". But despite the quotes helpfully located in the above discussion, I don't think the Wiki's current policy on ''this'' point is in fact clear/consistent. To wit… well, the page is called [[Season 23]], not [[The Trial of a Time Lord (TV story)|''The Trial of a Time Lord'' (TV story)]]. That's pretty strong evidence that, ''de facto'', we cover it as a season rather than a story! But as I said, this does conflict wit a few of the statements located above, so I'm game to treat that aspect of the matter as not yet settled, and to use this talk page to nail it down more clearly. | : Whether we can, from this, derive that ''Trial'' as a whole is ''not'' a story… I don't know. It seems to me that for a weird case like this, we ''could'' say that we have "a story made up of stories". But despite the quotes helpfully located in the above discussion, I don't think the Wiki's current policy on ''this'' point is in fact clear/consistent. To wit… well, the page is called [[Season 23 (Doctor Who 1963)|Season 23]], not [[The Trial of a Time Lord (TV story)|''The Trial of a Time Lord'' (TV story)]]. That's pretty strong evidence that, ''de facto'', we cover it as a season rather than a story! But as I said, this does conflict wit a few of the statements located above, so I'm game to treat that aspect of the matter as not yet settled, and to use this talk page to nail it down more clearly. | ||
: As regards story numbering, my personal opinion is that we should dispense with it entirely as a fundamentally confused, inherently-contradictory endeavour, and, by and large, a thuddingly useless one at that. I… recognise that this is perhaps a radical point of view, but I hope the fact that we're still arguing abour ''Trial'' numbering forty years on will give some people a sense of why I feel that way. (That being said, @Jack, for [[T:BOUND]] reasons you shouldn't have overhauled it on so many pages without prior discussion.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | : As regards story numbering, my personal opinion is that we should dispense with it entirely as a fundamentally confused, inherently-contradictory endeavour, and, by and large, a thuddingly useless one at that. I… recognise that this is perhaps a radical point of view, but I hope the fact that we're still arguing abour ''Trial'' numbering forty years on will give some people a sense of why I feel that way. (That being said, @Jack, for [[T:BOUND]] reasons you shouldn't have overhauled it on so many pages without prior discussion.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 14:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ||
::Regarding numbering, mercifully we don't need to reinvent the wheel here. ''[[The Complete History]]'', ''[[Doctor Who Magazine]]'', ''[[The Black Archive]]'', and other reference works all use the same standard numbering system, which is the official numbering. That numbering says the parts of ''[[The Trial of a Time Lord (TV story)|The Trial of a Time Lord]]'' are numbered 143a-d. I agree that this wiki's coverage of stories vs serials is weird and inconsistent, but that just means we should rethink the system (preferably in a forum thread), not that we should double down and use it as the basis for diverging from the rest of fandom. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:41, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ::Regarding numbering, mercifully we don't need to reinvent the wheel here. ''[[The Complete History]]'', ''[[Doctor Who Magazine]]'', ''[[The Black Archive]]'', and other reference works all use the same standard numbering system, which is the official numbering. That numbering says that ''[[Planet of the Dead (TV story)|Planet of the Dead]]'' was the 200th story and that the parts of ''[[The Trial of a Time Lord (TV story)|The Trial of a Time Lord]]'' are numbered 143a-d. I agree that this wiki's coverage of stories vs serials is weird and inconsistent, but that just means we should rethink the system (preferably in a forum thread), not that we should double down and use it as the basis for diverging from the rest of fandom. – [[User:NateBumber|n8]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 17:41, 10 January 2023 (UTC) [edited 17:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)] | ||
::: (@Scrooge I'm rather confused. Because of what was on this page, I thought that it was current policy that ''The Trial of a Time Lord'' was one story of twelve episodes. When I edited other pages to reflect this, they were reverted because of T:BOUND.) | ::: (@Scrooge I'm rather confused. Because of what was on this page, I thought that it was current policy that ''The Trial of a Time Lord'' was one story of twelve episodes. When I edited other pages to reflect this, they were reverted because of T:BOUND.) | ||
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:: As concerns [[T:BOUND]], it has indeed long been established practice that "current practice spread across dozens of pages on the Wiki" counts as one of the things you're not supposed to upend without prior discussion. There is in fact a proposal in the [[Tardis:Temporary forums]] to officially enshrine this in the text of the page, but to be clear that's a procedural issue, not a sign that it's not ''already'' how things work. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | :: As concerns [[T:BOUND]], it has indeed long been established practice that "current practice spread across dozens of pages on the Wiki" counts as one of the things you're not supposed to upend without prior discussion. There is in fact a proposal in the [[Tardis:Temporary forums]] to officially enshrine this in the text of the page, but to be clear that's a procedural issue, not a sign that it's not ''already'' how things work. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ||
::: Don't we technically consider ''The Stolen Earth'' and ''Journey's End'' to be one story, though? [[Series 4 (Doctor Who)]] says that the series has 18 stories, indicating that we count two-part stories as just that: a story of two parts. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ::: Don't we technically consider ''The Stolen Earth'' and ''Journey's End'' to be one story, though? [[Series 4 (Doctor Who 2005)]] says that the series has 18 stories, indicating that we count two-part stories as just that: a story of two parts. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ||
: This is just semantics, but '''if something has a story page and has "(TV story)" in the title, the Wiki considers it to be a story'''. That's not even a causal statement saying that one implies the other: these are synonymous. The only thing I have been trying to say in this entire debacle is that '''given that we have "story" right there in the title of those pages, it would be pointless and confusing to pussyfoot around language that refers to them as "stories"''' on e.g. cast pages. We don't need to dance around sentences like "In the [[Sixth Doctor]] TV story ''[[The Mysterious Planet (TV story)|The Mysterious Planet]]''…" when our page is literally at "(TV story)"! (Of course, I know you have a proposal to change dab terms ''there'', but even setting aside the fact that I would be against this proposal, that makes it a straightforward T:BOUND issue: you shouldn't be trying to implement things relating to this change until that change itself actually goes through.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | : This is just semantics, but '''if something has a story page and has "(TV story)" in the title, the Wiki considers it to be a story'''. That's not even a causal statement saying that one implies the other: these are synonymous. The only thing I have been trying to say in this entire debacle is that '''given that we have "story" right there in the title of those pages, it would be pointless and confusing to pussyfoot around language that refers to them as "stories"''' on e.g. cast pages. We don't need to dance around sentences like "In the [[Sixth Doctor]] TV story ''[[The Mysterious Planet (TV story)|The Mysterious Planet]]''…" when our page is literally at "(TV story)"! (Of course, I know you have a proposal to change dab terms ''there'', but even setting aside the fact that I would be against this proposal, that makes it a straightforward T:BOUND issue: you shouldn't be trying to implement things relating to this change until that change itself actually goes through.) [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | ||
:: (Yeah, I know that and wouldn't seek to change anything before a discussion had been had. That's a wholly unrelated matter that has only now become relevant.) | |||
:: So are we saying that this page was wrong in saying that ''The Trial of a Time Lord'' is one story, that it was right or that we need a discussion about it? [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:35, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
::: I am saying that '''regardless''' of whether ''Trial'' is ''also'' (in a different way) "a story", it is not inaccurate to say that ''[[The Mysterious Planet (TV story)|The Mysterious Planet]]'' onwards are also, individually, stories; and that it should '''never, under any circumstances''' be ruled to be inaccurate until and unless we cease to dab their pages as "(TV story)". [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
:::: Noted, but what's the current stance on ''The Trial of a Time Lord''? Is there one or do we need to have a discussion? [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
: As I said earlier, I do think it's worth having a discussion about it, yes. Though the impact of that discussion (this is a third point) should probably not affect the story numbering, so long as by story numbering we continue to mean the official BBC-given "story numbering", which is just a (<s>bad, decaying, worse-than-useless</s>) ''fact'' that we as a Wiki document, regardless of what is and is not actually considered a story on this Wiki. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 18:41, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
:: Okay, sure, I've added it to the temporary forum requests. I'll undo my edits to the story numbering but, from what you've said, it sounds like [[Season 23 (Doctor Who 1963)|season 23]] is more accurate now listing ''The Mysterious Planet'' etc. as stories rather than "episodes 1-4" and the like. [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Jack "BtR" Saxon]] [[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:48, 10 January 2023 (UTC) | |||
::For what it's worth, Scrooge, I agree with you about removing the story numbers. I'm not sure they are worth the confusion. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:30, 11 January 2023 (UTC) |