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| == Mondasian Cybermen or Cybus Cybermen in Blood of the Cybermen ==
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| I remeoved this text :
| | == ‘Merged Cyber-Race’ == |
| | Now we know that at some point the Cybusmen were merged with the original ones, shouldn’t the Pandorica, Good Man, Closing Time, and Blood Cybermen be moved to a third section named ‘Merged Cyber-Race’ or something, with the Nightmare Cybermen been part of this section or a new one? {{SUBST:User:Kingofall42/SigReal|{{SUBST:{''Predated ''}}}}. 09:23, May 14, 2013 (UTC) |
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| | == Joint Cybermen == |
| | Why was this removed we now know that at one point in their history, both the Mondasian and Cybus Cybermen encountered each other. What actually happened is unknown although they did co-operate and shared their technologies, to give birth to the variant of cyberman seen in A Good Man Goes to War, the video-game Blood of the Cybermen, Closing Time, Nightmare in Silver, and possibly The Pandorica Opens. |
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| | ==Too Borg-like?== |
| | The latest version of the Cybermen ("Nightmare in Silver") seems to be very Borg, with frequent adaptation ("upgrade in progress") instead of the old-style ones where you never saw them do the upgrades. |
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| "Cybermen will appear again in Blood of the Cyberman, as part of episode 2 of Doctor Who The Adventures games starring Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. This marks 21 years since the last time the original cybermen have appeared in Doctor Who.Cybermen will appear again in Blood of the Cyberman, as part of episode 2 of Doctor Who The Adventures games starring Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. This marks 21 years since the last time the original cybermen have appeared in Doctor Who.Cybermen will appear again in Blood of the Cyberman, as part of episode 2 of Doctor Who The Adventures games starring Matt Smith and Karen Gillan. This marks 21 years since the last time the original cybermen have appeared in Doctor Who."
| | Is this current version more powerful than the Daleks now? |
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| | Probably close, but the daleks would probably win, but we don't know for now. |
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| | -- [[Special:Contributions/65.94.76.126|65.94.76.126]]<sup>[[User talk:65.94.76.126#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:49, May 21, 2013 (UTC) |
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| I removed this on the grounds the game has not yet been released, thus far we don't know if the Cybermen in the game are from this universe or are Pete's World cybermen, but that all pre-release images suggest they are modified Cybus design cybermen. I think it would be better to wait a few days until the game is released before making any such statements.
| | == Joined Cybermen == |
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| | http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/gaiman-on-upgrading-the-cybermen-48926.htm, have the mondasian and cybus crossed? |
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| | == JOINT CYBERMEN OR CYBUS CYBERMEN == |
| | In The Pandorica Opens Cybermen are seen twice and Cyberships are seen. The ships and the fact that the first Cyberman we saw as a guard had new features unseen to Cybus Cybermen before, along with a whole skull, proves this is a new variant of Cybermen even though they have Cybus Logos. Moffat has stated it before and evidence backs up the idea that after The Next Doctor a second group survived and joined with an unknown group of Mondas Cybermen forming a new variant of Joint Cybermen as seen, in an early form, in PO. These Cybermen choose to use Mondas tech with Cybus armor, but didnt get rid of the Cybus logo till later on in there timeline.{{Unsigned-anon|173.63.41.232}} |
| | :It's an interesting way to look at it, but I think a bit speculative. It could just as easily be that the Cybermen in ''Pandorica Opens'' were Cybus who had upgraded their technology a bit — the line "all universes will be deleted" to justify their being part of the Alliance ''does'' suggest they're from Pete's World, to me. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 09:49, July 14, 2019 (UTC) |
| | ::[[Tardis:Discussion policy]] prohibits speculation on article talk pages. Please refrain from further speculation on this page thanks [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:16, July 14, 2019 (UTC) |
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| In addition, the original Cybermen have not appeared ON TV since Silver Nemesis, but they have appeared in other media, including the BBC broadcast 8th Dr audios, so the statement is rather less than clear.
| | == "Cybermen of unknown origin" == |
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| | "Cybermen of unknown origin" |
| | It's pretty clear, especially in Nightmare in Silver, that these are upgraded Mondasian Cybermen. [[Special:Contributions/62.254.12.55|62.254.12.55]]<sup>[[User talk:62.254.12.55#top|talk to me]]</sup> 00:48, December 8, 2013 (UTC) |
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| | == Their development == |
| | I'd like to know how the Cybermen managed to improve themselves to the point of Nightmare In Silver. I mean, as the Tenth Doctor said to John Lumic, they're stripping themselves from imagination, and that's what they need to progress. However, with their wars with the Human Empire, they've improved themselves gradually to the point they became almost invincible to humans. How did they even manage to do so without imagination? --[[User_talk:X29|X29]] 17:15, August 4, 2014 (UTC) |
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| | :If you want to know specifically how they improved themselves, I don't know if that information is available in any stories yet. If you just want a general discussion based on your last question, you must take it to [[Howling:The Howling]], as that kind of discussion isn't allowed on talk pages per [[Tardis:Discussion policy]]. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:23, August 14, 2014 (UTC) |
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| [[User:Mr Pepperpot|Mr Pepperpot]] 16:15, June 23, 2010 (UTC) | | ::I just wanted answers, yeesh... --[[User_talk:X29|X29]] 15:24, August 14, 2014 (UTC) |
| | ==Why is this page "Cyberman" rather than "Cybermen"?== |
| | It's true that this is in accord with general Wiki policy, but prior to the merging, the pages were [[Cybermen (Mondas)]] and [[Cybermen (Pete's World)]]. Why not keep the same exception? I assume it was for ease of linking, and in this instance that does seem like a strong reason to me — 90 percent of the time we'll be linking to Cybermen rather than Cyberman, and unlike with [[Dalek]], you can't just tack on an S at the end and let Wikia do the rest… --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 10:19, June 28, 2019 (UTC) |
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| :So, ''Blood of the Cybermen'' is out, and we still don't have any answers. In ''The Pandorica Opens'' we learn that the Cybus Cybermen somehow still got into our universe, and are now a sea-faring race. The game doesn't make it clear exactly which the Doctor is dealing with.--[[User:Samoth|Samoth]] 16:14, June 27, 2010 (UTC) | | :Except in certain circumstances, which this does not fall into, all article names (including species names) are singular. I don't know why the original two were made plural and I never actually noticed it till now. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:07, June 28, 2019 (UTC) |
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| :Space faring....... not see faring [[User:Fan555|Fan555]] 17:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
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| :I propose a merge. In The Next Doctor, the walls between Mondas and Pete's Cybermen was blurred and Blood of the Cybermen and The Pabdorica Opens have certainly strengthened that becasue we don't know which version they are. I'm australian, so I havent played Blood yet, but from what Ive read, it isnt said that they're Mondas Cybermen. The fine line that used to be drawn between the two species has been cut up. This is why i think they should be merged. I'm A Hydroponic Tomato! [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] ('''[[User talk:Bigredrabbit|talk to me]]''') 03:48, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
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| :It's just stupid to label them Mondasian Cybermen when they're unconfirmed...the logo is a potential indication but it is not an evidence...cybermats are definitely NOT evidence, since the Cybus Cybermen's technology advances significantly everytime we meet them...these cybermen should definitely be placed on both articles as unconfirmed if not merging the articles as Bigredrabbit said above...the Cybus Cybermen could very well have been the 'ancestors' of Mondasian Cybermen or any other wacky explanations...but listing unconfirmed things as facts is just plain stupid...[[Special:Contributions/203.168.176.42|203.168.176.42]] 16:58, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
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| Why does this have a seperate article? I haven't played the game, but my understanding was that these are definetly either the original [[Cybermen]], or the new parallel universe [[Cybermen (Pete's World)]], but they are definetly not yet another version of the Cybermen. Since we already definetly have a different page for them, we just don't know which page, we don't really need a seperate page. If there is any information on these Cybermen that is significant enough that it must be added to the other article, it can just be added to both articles, with a background note saying that these may be the other Cybermen.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 00:13, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
| | == 5.3 Factual correction == |
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| The cybermen from [[The Pandorica Opens]], [[The Big Bang]], [[Blood of the Cybermen]], and [[A Good Man Goes To War]] are they cybusmen or origional ones?
| | Considering that we never find out when exactly in Mondas’ history the colony ship was built and sent, along with the fact that the events there took place over thousands of years, shouldn’t we place it under the ‘Undated events’ section? It would make more sense, especially for pages like this where we’re dealing with Cybermen as a whole, not just individuals. |
| | [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:35, October 16, 2019 (UTC) |
| | : In my opinion, any attempt a linear Cybermen timeline is pretty much voided by ''The Doctor Falls''’s explanation that Cybermen get started at various points in time and space as an inevitable risk of human-like civilizations. I think what we ought to do is have an "Origins" section with subsections by planet. For lack of any hard facts on in which order these origins happened, we could default to listing them in the order that the Doctor encountered them. It would go something like: |
| | :: <small><nowiki>==</nowiki> Origins <nowiki>===</nowiki></small> |
| | :: <small><nowiki>===</nowiki> On Mondas <nowiki>===</nowiki></small> |
| | :: <small><nowiki>===</nowiki> On Telos <nowiki>===</nowiki></small> |
| | :: <small><nowiki>===</nowiki> On Marinus <nowiki>===</nowiki></small> |
| | :: <small><nowiki>===</nowiki> In Pete's World <nowiki>===</nowiki></small> |
| | :: <small><nowiki>===</nowiki> On the Mondasian Colony Ship <nowiki>===</nowiki></small> |
| | : What does everyone else think? --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:51, October 16, 2019 (UTC) |
| | That sounds like it could work, so long as said format is used only for an origins section. I’d also move the info on Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel and the games after them to the ‘alternate universes’ category as they occur in a separate universe to the other origins. Also it wouldn’t be too hard to edit seeing as most of the origins are placed early in the history section. I asked the question mainly to know how to arrange info of the history sections for the pages on general Cybermen topics, such as the Cyber-Lieutenant page (do I place the info from Alit in Underland, which takes place on the colony ship, before the other sections or after, for example). |
| | [[User:CyberFoundries900|CyberFoundries900]] [[User talk:CyberFoundries900|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:10, October 16, 2019 (UTC) |
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| The real-world reason for the use of the design is obviously to avoid confusion (unsure about the change in logo however). ''Blood of the Cybermen'' could not be used to introduce the Mondasian Cybermen back into the series; not everyone who watches the show will play the game and will therefore not know fully what is happening. I'm not so sure about concidering them the originals (and while I'm on this, the Cybermen in ''The Pandorica Opens'' are clearly Cybus, and I myself concider the Cybermen in ''A Good Man Goes to War'' Cybus kind for reasons stated in the [[Cybermen]] and [[Twelfth Cyber Legion]] talk pages). As for these ''Blood'' Cybermen, I think Cybus as little as I do Mondasian - although sometimes I think a mix of the two. However, there are odd times where I think the same as the Cybermen in ''A Good Man Goes to War''. Not much in there, too much "I think" and personal thoughts but these Cybermen are quite confusing.[[User:TheCoud'veBeenKing|TheCoud'veBeenKing]] 17:20, June 9, 2011 (UTC)
| | == More variants in the infobox gallery? == |
| | Should there be more images added to the infobox? "N-Space" is a very broad term, and there have been multiple variants and designs. And then there are the likes of the more recent Cyber-Masters... should they be included too? — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 15:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
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| == Overview page? ==
| | : I think that is a good idea. Any suggestions for said images? {{User:Epsilon the Eternal/signature}} 17:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
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| How about making the main [[Cyberman]] article an overview page about all kinds of cybermen, their differences and similarities, while having the current article as a more specific article at [[Cyberman (Mondas)]] or something like that? I'm not suggesting a full merge - the details would still be in separate articles. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> 21:54, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
| | In-keeping with the two we already have, I've tried to find some good screencaps to represent different models. [Gallery below.] The Mondasian one is facing left, and the majority of the core features are in frame (hollow eyes, cloth face, headlamp, chest unit). I found the ''Moonbase/Tomb'' ones trickier, as we're yet to have any good quality screencaps (ie. upscaled HD) but I've proposed one showing off the Cyber-controller with regular Cyberman in the background. |
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| == Mark eight ==
| | The one I've proposed for the ''Earthshock ''variants (are they called Cyber-scouts? Do they all have unique names?) is the one I'd argue most to use - not only does it show off a Cyber-Leader and a Cyberman, but I think it's a very clear shot of the designs and it also just so happens to feature them in a recognisable (arguably iconic) set ["Destroy them at once!"] |
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| Shouldn't the Cybermen [[The Doctor]] encountered in [[Pete's World]] be called mark eight? They were the eighth model that The Doctor encountered. [[Special:Contributions/74.195.213.196|74.195.213.196]] 06:32, January 9, 2011 (UTC)
| | ''Attack'', I've found similar. A Cyber-controller with a Cyberman in Cyber HQ on Telos, both of them decently in frame. Even though the regular Cyberman design is the same as the one in ''Earthshock ''(and ''Five Doctors''), the Cyber-controller is different. I don't think we need to use this one - if we start trying to find images for every single variant, it'd be never ending (the one painted black, all the tweaks made over the years to various costumes, etc). The one I've found for'' Silver Nemesis'' is annoyingly lowish quality, but again shows a Cyber-Leader with a regular Cyberman in good profile. I'd argue these should be included over the ''Attack ''ones if only because they are noticably different now - cricket gloves, new overalls, chrome-finish for the helmets. |
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| The Cybusmen had nothing to do with these Cybermen. They coincidentally have the same name, and a similar appearence, but they were developed completely seperately, by somebody who had no knowledge of the "real" Cybermen. [[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 03:39, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
| | Of the ones I've suggested for the classic series, the one I'd most like to see is the one I've plucked from ''Earthshock''. The others are just suggestions and I daresay there are probably better frames that others could grab that show off the Cybermen better. |
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| The cybermen from [[The Pandorica Opens]], [[The Big Bang]], [[Blood of the Cybermen]], and [[A Good Man Goes To War]] are they cybusmen or origional ones?
| | (Also worth asking at this point, should we stick to official televised Cybermen only? If we start including variants from BBV and comics, for example, the gallery could go on forever.) — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 17:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
| :The ones from A Good Man Goes to War have no Cybus logo and have quite a presence where they are, so I think they might be from this universe. I certainly hope so; the parallels have been around for too long. If we get a confirmation of that, then information about them should be included in this section. [[User:ProtoKun7|ProtoKun7]] 21:59, June 4, 2011 (UTC)
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| == Mondasian Cybermen or Cybus Cybermen in Series 6, A Good Man Goes to War ==
| | <gallery> |
| [[File:Cybermen-series-6.jpg|thumb|230px|Take a closer look at this image. No Cybus logo! Could it be the original Cybermen?]]
| | File:Cyber1.png |
| This question really needs to be answered. The Cybermen which appeared during the first two minutes of the episode, had no Cybus logo on their chest, and they had Cyber-ships in space, like our universes ones. Cybermen or Cybus Cybermen? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 14:08, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
| | File:Cyber2.png |
| | File:Cyber3.png |
| | File:Cyber4.png |
| | File:Cyber5.png |
| | </gallery> |
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| It's seems more likely they are Mondasian. [[User:TemporalSpleen|TemporalSpleen]] 14:22, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
| | ''Excellent.'' — [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">@</span>]] 17:34, 28 June 2023 (UTC) |
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| I would be inclined to say Mondasian, but we still have no proof of this. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 14:26, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
| | === Post-fork === |
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| I agree there is more evidence that they are Mondasian, but it hasn't been comfirmed, there ment to appear in a later story so lets wait till then and see if that tells us. [[User:General MGD 109|General MGD 109]] | | Just wanted to give this idea a nudge again, post-fork. I still believe covering a few of the main design variants would work well in an infobox gallery, showcasing various design evolutions since 1966. × [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] [[User talk:Fractal|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 10:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
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| I'm actually more inclined to think Cybus Cybermen. Personally, I feel a bit uncomfortable concidering them the original Cybermen - the odds of them being essentially just the same as varients from another universe kind of bugs me. That's my personal thought out the way - now for evidence: as it seems likely that the Cybusmen have recently become a space-faring race (like in ''The Pandorica Opens'') and that they have left their own universe and have now chosen to live in our universe, I think that may explain the lack of logo in ''A Good Man Goes To War'' - since they are living in our universe where there is no Cybus, that company name now means nothing to them and so the 'C' logo means nothing at all so they have done away with it. Furthermore, I don't think the show would introduce the original Cybermen back after all these years in a cameo and with so little changed. I'm quite looking forward to the original's return, and I'd be disappointed if it happened it that brief pre-title cameo, and if it hardly introduced anything new. So, I think they are Cybus Cybermen, but if it is not later confirmed, I'll just go on my speculation - as long as it keeps me happy :)[[User:TheCoud'veBeenKing|TheCoud'veBeenKing]] 20:11, June 7, 2011 (UTC)
| | Seems reasonable. How would you label them? --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:55, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
| | | : Would we be able to label them by the year they were first introduced? Alternatively, just "A", "B", "C", etc? × [[User:Fractal|Fractal]] [[User talk:Fractal|<span title="Talk">•</span>]] 16:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
| I don't really think the writers are going to address this issue, so its up to us to make a decision over where we're going to place these Cybermen. In my opinion, we should merge [[Cyberman (Pete's World)]], [[Cyberman (Blood of the Cybermen)]] and [[Cyberman (Good Man)]] into [[Cyberman]]. The Cybermen and Cybusmen are different in the way the CyberMondasians and CyberNomads are different. They're the same species, just different factions. [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 11:02, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
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| That would make sense, although I'm not 100% sure about merging all four pages but merging Pete's World, ''Blood'', and ''Good Man'' Cybermen together would be a good idea - There's bound to be viewers who don't pay it as much heed as we do and just choose parallel Cybermen anyway. Despite the lack of explanation and continuity, all three of them are essentially the same thing. Three pages of them aren't too necessary (''Blood'' and ''Good Man'' could possibly be the same space-faring Cybermen, just a different logo). If the Mondasian Cybermen are reintroduced to the show some day, we'll know that ''Blood'' and ''Good Man'' are not the Mondasians, thus making things easier around here.[[Special:Contributions/90.200.188.9|90.200.188.9]] 17:34, June 11, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Here's a mock-up of a merged Cybermen article (obviously to be expanded): [[User:Ausir/Cyberman]]. What do you think of the general idea, though? In this version, the current article would be moved to [[Cybermen (Mondas)]] and [[Cybermen (Pete's World)]] would also be preserved, but the main "Cyberman" article would encompass all major varieties, with less detail than the more specific articles, instead of being only about the Mondasian version. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 13:05, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::I don't see the need for confusion, and I think we're being a bit bloody-minded to try to argue that the AGMGTW Cybermen ''aren't'' "our universe" Cybermen. There's no doubt that they are in our universe, is there? Rory hasn't slipped off to a pocket dimension, has he? Of course not. The label "Mondasian" is awfully confusing, because it tries to assert something that was never very clear in the classic series, anyway: that Cybermen came from Mondas. Even Kit Pedler and Gerry Davis weren't sure about that. The issue here is solely whether these guys were from our universe, and they most certainly were.
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| ::Also, I think Occam's razor would suggest we take the evidence before our eyes and go for the simplest explanation. We see an advanced space-faring civilisation here — something that doesn't characterise the Pete's World guys. We've never seen a single space ship outta those guys. Not even one, so far as I'm aware. We ''have'' however, seen many space ships outta the "our universe" guys, and — y'know what — the spaceships in AGMGTW obviously are of the same design as those seen in ''The Invasion''. And the control area of the ship we seen in AGMGTW is consonant with that seen in ''Earthshock''. Furthermore, the design of the Cybermen in AGMGTW has changed in more ways than just the chest symbol. The armouring is completely different to ''anything'' provided by the new series so far. These Cybermen have "bare midriffs" and more slender codpieces; much much more of their central body is unarmoured. It's a different cybersuit, not just one with the logos switched. That shifts the burden of proof to those who say these guys '''aren't''' from our universe. Add that to the fact that [[Peter Hoar]] says they were meant to be the original, "our universe" Cybermen in the director's commentary and you've got production intent plus in-universe visual clues that can't easily be interpreted to support a "who are these guys?" interpretation. We've been told, through the ''visual'' medium of television, who these guys are. For some reason, though, we don't want to accept what we've been told.
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| ::The totality of what appears on screen — not just dialogue — can be used to write articles around here. We don't ''need'' a line of dialogue saying "Hello, Doctor. We are from Mondas." There's more than enough evidence to suggest that these guys ''are'' the originals. If later on down the line we get some sorta backstory for how they have a Cybus-like design, fine, we can add that to the article. But this article is wrong for currently suggesting there are four types of Cybermen in the DWU. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} <span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''16:03:43 Fri '''17 Jun 2011 </span>
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| Stop talking rubbish. We have seen the Cybus Cybermen with spaceships. Remember in [[The Pandorica Opens (TV story|The Pandorica Opens]], when River mentioned 'Cyberships', the Cybermen that teleported down were Cybus Cybermen. Also, their is nothing different apart from the logo in the 'Good Man' Cybermen. As for the 'mighty space faring civilisation' you mentioned below, the Cybus Cybermen in TPO were able to time travel an entire fleet of Cyberships to 102 AD, they were also able to teleport down from their spaceships, something unaccomplished by the original Cybermen, so if anything, the Cybus Cybermen are actually ''more'' technologically advanced than our universes Cybermen. As for the Peter Hoar commentary, he said these were 'different Cybermen' in terms of APPEARANCE as the removal of the logo was a subtle redesign of sorts.--[[Special:Contributions/86.176.65.186|86.176.65.186]] 20:59, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Indeed, given The Pandorica Opens, I wouldn't assume without doubt that they are purely of Mondasian origin. Perhaps them having the Cybus logo in TPO was a mistake on the part of the crew, but it still happened. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 23:49, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::Since we have confirmation from the director of the episode that they are not Pete's World Cybermen, I suggest that we merge them into the Mondasian Cybermen page and leave a footnote to the source on the internet where he said this into the Behind the scenes section. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 17:23, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
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| :::I agree that it is only logical to assume that the Good Man and Blood CYbermen are Mondas Cybermen. [[User:Bigredrabbit|Bigredrabbit]] 06:20, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
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| == The Pandorica Opens, A Good Man Goes to War, and Blood of the Cybermen ==
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| If it is established that theses are the Mondasian Cyberman, then the ones in [[The Pandorica Opens (TV story)]] must also be, as the same cyberships where seen in [[The Alliance (The Pandorica Opens)|The Alliance]]s Fleet. Also it is said somewhere in this wiki that the producers where originally going to redesign or modify the cybermen in pandorica, however if we just imaging the C loge doesn't exist on them it all makes more sense. So [[The Pandorica Opens (TV story)]], [[A Good Man Goes to War]], and [[Blood of the Cybermen]] are Mondasian cybermen not Cybus ones. --{{SUBST:User:Kingofall42/SigReal|{{SUBST:{''Predated ''}}}}.
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| I completley disagree. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 16:15, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Yeah... completely disagree. ''"if we just imaging the C loge doesn't exist on them"''... or another way to put it... if we go completely against canon? Nah. We don't do that. Not at all. Fact is... we don't know where they originated. And until we do, it's unconfirmed. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 16:31, June 5, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::I also disagree, the proposal is going with speculation when there is quite clearly half a season's worth of information yet to be broadcast. As with the [[Forum:Can we say River is the little girl?]] discussion it is best to wait and see what the information brings rather than to try and second guess things and speculate what was meant. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:25, June 6, 2011 (UTC)
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| :::I have just found something that complicates the matter even further. [[The Mazes of Time]] features Cybus Cybermen, but during part of the story, the Doctor visits ''their'' cyber tombs on Telos. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 15:03, June 13, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::::I think that at this point it's pretty much clear that the Cybus and Mondasian Cybermen have somehow merged into one group, despite their separate origins. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 12:56, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
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| Seeing at most of this "overview" page is just the contents of the in depth pages, I suggest that this page becomes a disambiguation page or is simply noting the types and their differences. It shouldn't have an infobox, history or any of that as it isn't referring to any set variant. Perhaps it should just have a heading for each type with a brief description and a link to the main page.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:11, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| I agree, the history section should provide links to each variant of Cybermen pages. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 10:19, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :I'm not so sure, given that it documents the Cybermen that are of unknown or merged origin as well. I think it should have a summary of history of all variants of Cybermen in general, even if not in as much details as it does now, and with links to the more specific histories. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 10:27, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| They do not have an intertwined history. Just an unclear one. See [[User:Skittles the hog/Sandbox two|this sandbox]] for a basic outline of my idea. Improve it as you wish. This article is just patches of the other articles without any useful information, bar the section on differences.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:30, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :I guess you're right, how about the current version? I only left the history of the "unified" Cybermen in the article. I think it's best to keep all of it here instead of splitting it off to separate articles for the VG ones, for the "Good Man" ones etc. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 10:37, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| I like it, yeah. I suppose it will be altered over time, but its a great start. Good work.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:39, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| I don't think using an image of one version to represent an article on different species is against policy - e.g. we have an image of Time Lords at the top of [[near-human]], even though it's an overview article on various similar species. I think having the latest (Twelfth Cyber Fleet) variant of Cybermen as the image at the top of the article is a good idea, just like the one at [[Silurian]], despite there being vast differences between subspecies of Silurians. Or maybe someone could make an image that depicts all major variants, just like the one at [[The Doctor]]? And generally, I think it's a good idea to always have an image at the top of the article. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 10:49, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| Most articles on this wiki don't have images at the top of the page, and sometimes it just doesn't look right. I've added a pic with four variants on it. I just used one for the blood/good man Cybermen and the caption links further down the page.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 11:27, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Looking good! [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 11:36, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| == The Unspecified Cybermen - At Some Point ==
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| Good work on the clean-up, but I'm sure we all know we're not finished here yet. We're going to have to do something about the Cybermen from [[Blood of the Cybermen|''Blood of the Cybermen'']] and those from [[A Good Man Goes to War|''A Good Man Goes to War'']] at some point. If I may make a suggestion for a later time, I shall start by pointing out that the Cybermen seen in the aforementioned stories are either Cybus or Mondasian - I'm sure we can all agree that they haven't come from a completely unrelated origin, and so to have three different types of Cybermen that are all more-or-less the exact same despite the logo. These Cybermen are either Cybus or Mondasian, we just don't know which but not a different branch.
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| So, if their origin is not picked up on again, such as the Cybermen in the Adventure Games are unlikely to be referenced in the show proper for example, we'll have to go by elimination of possibilities (''IF'' it's not picked up on, it ''may'' be but not likely). If the Mondasian Cybermen are seen again in the show, then are there any objections to merging the ''Blood'' Cybermen with the Cybus Cybermen? We do know the Cybermen became a space-faring race ([[DW]]: [[The Pandorica Opens|''The Pandorica Opens'']] and [[VG]]: [[Return to Earth|''Return to Earth'']], despite it's reception, is still canon around here), and the ''Blood'' Cybermen are a space-faring race, so they'd fir just fine together. The same could also go for the ''Good Man'' Cybermen.
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| So, if the ''Blood'' and ''Good Man'' Cybermen are confirmed not to be Mondasian, then they can only be Cybus. So if we do see the Mondasians again, would anyone have any problems with merging ''Blood'' and ''Good Man'' with Cybus?[[Special:Contributions/90.200.188.111|90.200.188.111]] 15:04, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :They can be either Cybus, Mondasian or both - one possibility you haven't mentioned is them being a result of an alliance between Cybus and Mondasian versions. Anyway, we know that at least one of the episodes in the 2nd half of series 6 will feature Cybermen, so let's wait for whether it will explain anything. My feeling is that they are not going to be mentioning the origins of these Cybermen at all, though. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 15:19, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| This is just turning into speculation. We should just think of them as different altogether until the show dictates otherwise.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 15:26, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Yes, until confirmed, we should just note their similarities and differences from both previously seen Mondasian and Cybus versions. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 15:30, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::Yes, yes, I know this may be seen as travelling into the relms of speculation, but are the production team just going to introduce a new type of Cybermen out of nowhere? The show already has two, what does it need two more for? Not to mention that three of them are just about the exact same things, and yes there are things that look the same but are different, but ''three'' factions of ''Cybermen'' and to ''that'' degree? Really? No, realistically, there are only two, we just don't know which of two origins certain groups came from.
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| ::Should the matter not be picked up on-screen yet the Mondasian Cybermen come back, it wont be speculation, it would be elimination of the possibilites.
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| ::As for Cybermen born out of an alliance between Cybus and Mondasian, I was going to write that it somewhere but I think that's the most speculation view there is right now. That is something that will have to be confirmed by the show or we can't put it anywhere.
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| ::So anyway, two types of Cybermen. Anyone want to argue there are more?[[Special:Contributions/90.200.188.111|90.200.188.111]] 15:42, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :::No-one is arguing that there are more types, just two variants that are diffucult to classify to either Mondasian or Cybus. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 19:13, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::::
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| ::::That's fine. That's the point I was trying to make. What I was meaning is that if we agree that there are only two types of Cybermen, then if we see one (say Mondasian) then we'll know what the others are ( so we could put them in Cybus). Or if they are confirmed to be Mondasian, we'll put them in the Mondas page, same with Cybus. It's just that if they are never confirmed, then I'll say again that we can eliminate possibilities.[[Special:Contributions/90.200.188.105|90.200.188.105]] 16:23, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::As I said two sections back, I think we're being deliberately obtuse by trying to argue that there's some doubt as to the identity of the AGMGTW Cybermen. They're obviously from our universe. Rory hasn't slipped into Pete's World. They don't bear the distinctive Cybus Industries logo. Their cybersuits are wholly distinctive from the Cybus guys, in more ways that just the logo. They're a mighty, space-faring race — which the Cybus guys clearly weren't ''and couldn't be''. And they have spaceship designs that are directly descended from those seen in ''The Invasion''. Add to that the fact that [[Peter Hoar]] ''says'' they're the original Cybermen, and you've got production intent ''and'' in-universe visual cues. We're cutting our noses off to spite our faces by maintaining this belief that we haven't been explicitly told that they're "our" Cybermen. The Ninth Doctor never uttered the word "Cyberman" in ''Dalek'', yet we all happily conclude that our eyes aren't deceiving us in that episode. Never heard anyone argue that we weren't looking at a Cyberman there. Nor have I ever heard anyone suggest that the Cybermen in ''Silver Nemesis'', despite looking very different from the Cybermen in ''The Moonbase'', are a different species, or from another universe.
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| ::We're operating from precisely the wrong point of view, here. Given the in-universe fact that Cybermen from our universe look different in almost every encounter with the Cybermen — in other words, that they constantly upgrade — it should be our assumption that the ''Good Man'' guys ''are'' from our universe until there is direct and conclusive evidence to the contrary. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} <span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''17:57:51 Fri '''17 Jun 2011 </span>
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| Well, it doen't ''have'' to be. And they're not "''clearly''" from out universe, it hasn't been confirmed yet. Also, there ''is'' evidence that the Cybus Cybermen have become a space-faring race. ''Return to Earth'' for example (I know, I know, but it's still canon) and in ''The Pandorica Opens'' too, the Cybusmen are seen travelling in space and those at Stonehenge have Cyber-ships. And why would they deceive us in''Dalek''? There'd be very little gained there. Well, while we don't know what AGMGTW Cybermen really are, I suspect that we're maybe putting too much weight on it - many other viewers wont really care. But, until then, whatever we agree we want to do, I myself am going to accept them as Cybus until further notice - a multiverse coincidence like that just bugs me.
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| :I think it's clear that they are of Mondasian origin, but I wouldn't be so sure about them being ''only'' of Mondasian origin - I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the two groups meeting up at some point and joining forces. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 23:44, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
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| :I don't see how it's clear that they're Mondasian. Yes they have a fleet and lack the Cybus logo, but appearance, voice, sounds, "Cyber-Lord" with visible brain... Until confirmation, they're Cybus to me at least. But I suppose that's the beauty of speculation.
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| ::In my view, speculation is the province of those who want to ''deny'' these are the prime universe's Cybermen. Such people are letting ''some'' visual similarities to the Pete's World guys get in the way of what's actually on screen. The nature of parallel/alternate worlds is that the guys in the prime world look fairly similar to those in the alternate world. Spock looks basically like ''Mirror, Mirror'' Spock, save a goatee. Superman of Earth-1 looks like Superman of Earth-2, except for a '''slightly different logo''' on his chest. Pete of Pete's World looks like Pete of Rose's World but he has money — which is largely what allows Jackie of Rose's World to fall so instantly for him. The only thing that's weird about the Cybermen is that we've met the alt-Cybes of the modern era prior to meeting prime-Cybes. But we have now definitely met prime-Cybes.
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| ::Look at the reaction, above, to the AGMGTW leader. People have rushed to call the dude with the exposed brains a "Cyber-Lord". But that's a Pete's World term — and, importantly, one never used in the script. In fact, exposed brains isn't exclusive to Pete's World Cybermen. Troughton-era Cybermen got there first. See, for instance, ''[[Tomb of the Cybermen]]''{{'}}s [[Cyber-Controller]]. To me, it's ''far'' more likely that's what he is. It's speculation to call him a Cyber-Lord; it's merely using established facts from the universe in which this creature exists to call him a Cyber-Controller.
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| ::Again, the salient point here is that these guys in AGMGTW are '''unambiguously''' in the "prime" DWU, and no part of this story has anything to do with alternate realities. The Doctor even gives a recap of TPO/TBB in a speech. If we were dealing with alternate universes in any way, he'd have taken that time to draw a parallel to that situation. He doesn't. We're firmly, absolutely, incontrovertibly in the ''one'' reality ofthe home DWU. To even ''suggest'' that these guys are Pete's World Cybermen is to go well beyond the text of the script, and to ignore what our eyes tell us. The '''speculation''' is in saying "until we get confirmation, these aren't the main-universe Cybermen". No, if we get more details in the future, then we change the article. But until then it's absolute folly to attempt to create yet a fourth branch of Cybermen. I honestly believe that if this wiki had been around back in the 1960s, we'd have had four different Cybermen articles by the time we got to the end of the Troughton era!
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| ::''The Pandorica Opens'' has been brought up as an example of space-travelling Pete's World Cybermen, but this forgets the narrative point of ''The Big Bang''. Those guys are erased from history. They never existed. I don't know, yet, whether it can be asserted that the Cybus dudes are ''entirely'' removed from history, but certainly the ones who had spaceflight, the ability to cross dimensions at an oblique angle to the time stream (don't know if I'd call it actual time travel, since Mickey was shown to come back 3 years when he jumped dimensions), and some teleportational facilities — ''this'' branch of Cybus-evolution is definitely removed by the collapse of reality.
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| ::As for a videogame being canon, well, no. Yes, we ''cover'' such things, because they are fully licensed by the BBC. But as for whether we can use narrative elements from a Wii game called "an insult to ''Doctor Who'' fans" by one reviewer — well, there we're on shakier ground. The current revision of [[tardis:canon policy]] doesn't mention video games at all, and we still have an open debate on the matter at [[forum:We need a policy on videogames]]. Still it's pretty clear that the flat assertion above about ''[[Return to Earth]]'' that "it's still canon" is not accurate. It's canonicity is both in doubt and in debate; what's not in debate is the fact that we can have an article about it on this wiki. We allow coverage of it, but its of dubious use in writing articles. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} <span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''14:17:32 Sun '''19 Jun 2011 </span>
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| Lets put it simply. Another 'splinter group' Cybus Cybermen escaped from the void the same way the ones in [[The Next Doctor]] did, but into a different planet and time period. Then they developed space and time travel and advanced technology, resulting in the Space-Faring Cybermen seen in TPO. Then they removed the Logo on their chest as it means nothing any more, resulting in the logo-less Cybermen in AGMGTW. There, it's simple, it works and it makes sense, why would anyone want to mess it up?--[[User:Dalekcaan14|Dalekcaan14]] 14:55, June 19, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::Again I don't see how it is ''clear'' that they are from Mondas. It isn't stated anywhere, maybe in the real world but not everyone watching the show is going to know what it said in interviews. It isn't stated on-screen what type of Cybermen these ones are - it's not clear that they are Mondasian based on the given AGMGTW evidence. Ah, forget it - same argument over and over again. What about this: if different Mondasian Cybermen appear on the show, what will we do with the Cybermen on ''Blood'' and ''Good Man''?
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| == Main thumbnail image ==
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| We don't need that image. It is unnecessary to have it up. This is my main point: '''This shows all the different types of Cybermen we seen on screen so far, but we don't have a picture showing all the different types of Daleks on screen so far, e.g. Time-War, Progenitor. '''So there, so in the mean time, I will be taking that image down until the matter is solved. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 15:35, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| No you won't. This wiki is not for you to run free on. Please wait for discussion on the image. We show [[companion]]s on the companion page don't we? I remember you contested that also. It doesn't show all the Cybermen, just some. Both I and [[User:Ausir]] decided that an image was needed for the top of the page and this was decided upon. Again, this is a case of you not listening to others. Please discuss changes when it is requested of you so as to be a productive member of this lovely wikia's society :) Thanks ----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 15:44, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| "Again, this is a case of you not listening to others"? What on earth are you talking about? I listen as much as you do. Now, about "Please discuss changes when it is requested of you so as to be a productive member of this lovely wikia's society" I understand. I want and would love to be a productive member of this lovely wikia's society. So you beat about the image being removed. So now that image will stay up there. But remember that is only a temporary image, if you could persuade me to make it pernament, and other editors agree, then it will be pernament. Understand? Happy with that? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 15:57, June 15, 2011 (UTC) | |
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| :I like the image and feel it should remain on the page, but I feel that you, Skittles, are being a bit. You said "wait for a discussion on the image" and that you and Ausir have discussed this, but is a discussion between two Users about how a page should look really a discussion, should you have not raised it here first so that more Users could have their say? I also agree with Cortion that we should have something like this for the Dalek page. And like I said, the image should stay. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 16:06, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| All my points are valid. You (Cortion) removed this image based solely on your own opinion. It was Ausir that proposed the image and I created it. That shows that it was a joint decision. Same with the Eighth Doctor image. I consulted other users, you didn't. Now, about this temporary thing, you said it about the Eighth image as well. What are you talking about? Anyway, of course I'd be happy to listen to other users, that'd be great.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:07, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Why do people like this image? What's so good about it? And also, I agree with Mini-mitch about you are being a bit. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 16:54, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| How ironic. Yes, I only discussed it with one user but that's a lot better than not at all. I also said I was open to other opinions. I couldn't see any points for its removal raised here. Yet again, it was unfounded preference. I don't understand Mini-mitch's point. Should I make a discussion whenever I want to add an image?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:03, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Not with any image. I just thought after the discussion with the other Users, you'd post the idea here to see what other Users think. The image is good because it gives an all round idea of what the Cybermen from the different stories look like, I know not every appearance is on there, but it what the main different Cybermen look like and show how the Cybermen have changes over the year in television and comic/novels. If a User who had no idea what Cybermen look liked and with Users who do, they come onto this page a see the image and good "The the original and the Cybermen from the New series, along with two of the most commonly featured one", that, to me, is why it's a good image. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 17:12, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| Oh, thanks for clearing that up. I'll bear it in mind.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:14, June 15, 2011 (UTC)
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| I don't think that having four different type of Cybermen in the main image is necessary. The main image should just be one image that represents the Cybermen as a whole, preferably the most recent image available which would be ''A Good Man Goes to War'', and then the other images would be throughout the body of the article. If we must keep the image with multiple Cybermen, however, I would reccomend that one of them be of the original Cybermen look, from before ''Invasion''. The Cybusmen and the Cybermen from ''A Good Man Goes to War'' may or may not be the same, but they look almost identical, so we don't really need both. I think it would make more sense to have one from before ''Invasion'' one of the design that was used from ''Invasion'' onwards in the Classic series, one from the new series, and one from the comic.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 02:43, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Thank you! Someone who agrees with me! [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 06:44, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| One image wouldn't be enough to accurately portray the Cybermen. As for condensing the Good Man and Pete's World Cybermen, you can't really do that. In appearance they aren't really that different, but in origin they are. I already just used one image for the Artic and Good Man Cybermen. I can't really see the advantage of using a pre-''Invasion'' Cyberman. Why do you want such a change? ----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 08:58, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| By the logic of using multiple pictures in the infobox of things that look different, we should have 2 pictures of Amy in the infobox, several pictures of the Brigadier in the infobox, a few pictures of the TARDIS in the infobox, etc. We don't know the origin of the ''Good Man'' Cyberman, but the infobox really only shows the appearance of the Cyberman anyway. Obviously, they would be mentioned, and an image of them would be featured, in the body of the article, but it doesn't really add anything to the infobox. They are presumably a version that we have seen before anyway. It is unlikely that there is yet another species who coincidentally looks exactly like the Cybermen, so they are probably either the Mondasian or Cybus Cybermen. We just don't know which ones yet. I think the pre-''Invasion'' ones should be there, because the Cybermen actually looked significantly different before that, and it would show what they initially loooked like. It would also illustrate the Cyberman's ability to upgrade their appearances over time.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] 12:52, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| :How can you compare Amy to the Cybermen? Amy is one person, so it does not matter what her infobox picture is, aslong as it shows her. As for the Cybrmen, this page is not for a particular group of Cybermen, just like the Companion page is not for a particular companion. The image, needs to stay at the top of the page because it gives an overall view of what the different Cybermen look like. There is no way that it should show only on version of the Cybermen, as that can go on thier own page. We are creating this page about the Cybermen, as in ''all'' the Cybermen, so the infobox picture should show the main types of Cybermen encounter or the most important changes in Cybermen. If you want to see an image about on particular Cyberman, as you, Icecreamdif, seem to want, Users will be able to get onto the page of the particualr Cyberman they want to see. [[User:Mini-mitch|Mini-mitch]]\[[User talk:Mini-mitch|talk]] 13:37, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| ::Why has this idea of having this page relatelinking to different types come up so recently. With a wiki like this, we should have thought of this before, e.g. after the broadcast of ''[[Rise of the Cybermen]]''. So there's my question: Why haven't we thought of having the Cyberman article relating to all the different types before? [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 15:03, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| :::Because before there were only really two different types... what we called Cybermen, which are now the Mondas Cybermen, and the Cybermen from Cybus Industries. But now.... because of Blood of the Cybermen and now A Good Man Goes to War, we don't know where they originate, so we need to class them as their own race until further informed.
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| :::Now... here's why I think we should keep the image. The Cybermen are a broad range. They are essentially all the same race, but with minor differences in appearance. In other words... they're like the Doctor. The Doctor is the same individual... but with different faces. On his page we have the main image as all of his faces. So on this page we should have all of the Cybermen's different looks. The same should go for the Daleks. --[[User:The Thirteenth Doctor|The Thirteenth Doctor]] 16:14, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| We shouldn't try and show all the Cybermen, just the unique types. Daleks are all one species so there is no need for such an image, just a single shot showing a Dalek (or several).----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 16:17, June 16, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Well, Daleks aren't an unvariegated species, of course, else there would never have been a civil war, nor would there have been a need for the new progenitor Daleks to kill off the old, RTD-era ones. From an in-universe perspective, Daleks don't think of ''themselves'' as one species, or Dalek Sec would be alive and well today. The problem I have with the pic is a) the bottom-left quadrant has comic speech balloons in it and an image of the Sixth Doctor and b) it's just too busy. (I'm not quite clear how the ones with the Sixth Doctor are a unique species, anyway.) I say go with a simple double image, split right down the middle. Take one from ''Tenth Planet'' and one from ''Rise of the Cybermen''. Two images: one from the origin story of each major type of Cyberman. Then in the caption you put, "Two types of Cyberman", and you're done. The image doesn't ''have'' to be exhaustive. You're just trying to say with the image, "There is more than one type of Cyberman". We should be going for the ''simplest'' expression of that idea — not the most complete. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} <span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">'''17:43:34 Fri '''17 Jun 2011 </span>
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| Sounds like a good plan. I put the comic one on because it's kind of disputed.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:50, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
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| :I'd go with 4 images - pre-Invasion Mondasian, post-Invasion Mondasian, Cybus and Cyber Legion. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 23:40, June 17, 2011 (UTC)
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| Have it up then. But I will tweak and change the image a bit, either today or tomorrow. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 09:33, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
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| What? You're going to edit an image that doesn't even exist yet, why?----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 10:03, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
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| No. No, no, no, no, no, I meant I will change the picture we've already got up to make it look better. It'll have to be tomorrow when I do it. [[User:Cortion|Cortion]] 16:56, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
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| Chopped it in half. Retaining the Mondasian and Pete's World variants.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 17:19, June 18, 2011 (UTC)
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| :I've tried to make it better, but it didn't work. That image is unecessary because this article goes over '''all types''' of Cybermen, not only two (Mondasian and Cybus). This discussion is ''still'' active, I assure you.{{Unsigned|Cortion}}
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| Not until you think of a reason and justify it.----<u>[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]]--<small>[[User talk:Skittles the hog|Talk]]</small></u> 09:31, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
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| I don't know about the comics, but in the TV show there are only two types of Cybermen (Mondasian and Cybus).
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| Um... I like the image, just one issue, isn't the "Pete's World" half of the picture a Publicity shot? Correct me if I'm wrong. --[[User:OttselSpy25|OttselSpy25]] <sup>[[User talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me]]</sup> 15:49, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
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| == ''Closing Time'' Cybermen ==
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| Should the Cybermen in ''[[Closing Time (TV story)|Closing Time]]'' be listed under Cybermen of the Cyber-Legions, as they seem to be the same type with those chestplates. --[[User:MrThermomanPreacher|MrThermomanPreacher]] 13:45, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
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| :Yup, same type. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> <staff/> 14:18, September 25, 2011 (UTC)
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| ==Cybermen of the Cyber Legions==
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| Okay, we have confirmation hat these Cybermen are from Mondas now (''[[The Brilliant Book 2012]]''). I'm still quite disappointed that the design isn't anything significantly new (which is why I was previously thinking Cybus, and which I still think for the ''Blood of the Cybermen'' varient for the same reason) but I'm glad some of it's sorted now. I have noticed though that a few Cyberman storie pages (Like ''[[A Good Man Goes to War|A Good Man...]]'' and ''[[Closing Time (TV story)|Closing Time]]'', and even some classic series stories) list the enemy as 'Cybermen' or mention it on the page but it is linked to this general overview page rather than the specific Mondas Cybermen page. I think that's something that should be cleared up.[[Special:Contributions/90.200.188.177|90.200.188.177]] 11:33, November 19, 2011 (UTC)
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| == 2 Doctors without adventures with cybermen ==
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| the 9th doctor also didnt have an adventure with the cybermen they only had a cameo
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Now we know that at some point the Cybusmen were merged with the original ones, shouldn’t the Pandorica, Good Man, Closing Time, and Blood Cybermen be moved to a third section named ‘Merged Cyber-Race’ or something, with the Nightmare Cybermen been part of this section or a new one? {{SUBST:User:Kingofall42/SigReal|{{SUBST:{Predated }}}}. 09:23, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
Why was this removed we now know that at one point in their history, both the Mondasian and Cybus Cybermen encountered each other. What actually happened is unknown although they did co-operate and shared their technologies, to give birth to the variant of cyberman seen in A Good Man Goes to War, the video-game Blood of the Cybermen, Closing Time, Nightmare in Silver, and possibly The Pandorica Opens.
The latest version of the Cybermen ("Nightmare in Silver") seems to be very Borg, with frequent adaptation ("upgrade in progress") instead of the old-style ones where you never saw them do the upgrades.
Is this current version more powerful than the Daleks now?
Probably close, but the daleks would probably win, but we don't know for now.
-- 65.94.76.126talk to me 13:49, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/gaiman-on-upgrading-the-cybermen-48926.htm, have the mondasian and cybus crossed?
JOINT CYBERMEN OR CYBUS CYBERMEN[[edit source]]
In The Pandorica Opens Cybermen are seen twice and Cyberships are seen. The ships and the fact that the first Cyberman we saw as a guard had new features unseen to Cybus Cybermen before, along with a whole skull, proves this is a new variant of Cybermen even though they have Cybus Logos. Moffat has stated it before and evidence backs up the idea that after The Next Doctor a second group survived and joined with an unknown group of Mondas Cybermen forming a new variant of Joint Cybermen as seen, in an early form, in PO. These Cybermen choose to use Mondas tech with Cybus armor, but didnt get rid of the Cybus logo till later on in there timeline.– The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.63.41.232 (talk).
- It's an interesting way to look at it, but I think a bit speculative. It could just as easily be that the Cybermen in Pandorica Opens were Cybus who had upgraded their technology a bit — the line "all universes will be deleted" to justify their being part of the Alliance does suggest they're from Pete's World, to me. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 09:49, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
- Tardis:Discussion policy prohibits speculation on article talk pages. Please refrain from further speculation on this page thanks Shambala108 ☎ 14:16, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
"Cybermen of unknown origin"[[edit source]]
"Cybermen of unknown origin"
It's pretty clear, especially in Nightmare in Silver, that these are upgraded Mondasian Cybermen. 62.254.12.55talk to me 00:48, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to know how the Cybermen managed to improve themselves to the point of Nightmare In Silver. I mean, as the Tenth Doctor said to John Lumic, they're stripping themselves from imagination, and that's what they need to progress. However, with their wars with the Human Empire, they've improved themselves gradually to the point they became almost invincible to humans. How did they even manage to do so without imagination? --X29 17:15, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
- If you want to know specifically how they improved themselves, I don't know if that information is available in any stories yet. If you just want a general discussion based on your last question, you must take it to Howling:The Howling, as that kind of discussion isn't allowed on talk pages per Tardis:Discussion policy. Shambala108 ☎ 14:23, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
- I just wanted answers, yeesh... --X29 15:24, August 14, 2014 (UTC)
Why is this page "Cyberman" rather than "Cybermen"?[[edit source]]
It's true that this is in accord with general Wiki policy, but prior to the merging, the pages were Cybermen (Mondas) and Cybermen (Pete's World). Why not keep the same exception? I assume it was for ease of linking, and in this instance that does seem like a strong reason to me — 90 percent of the time we'll be linking to Cybermen rather than Cyberman, and unlike with Dalek, you can't just tack on an S at the end and let Wikia do the rest… --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 10:19, June 28, 2019 (UTC)
- Except in certain circumstances, which this does not fall into, all article names (including species names) are singular. I don't know why the original two were made plural and I never actually noticed it till now. Shambala108 ☎ 14:07, June 28, 2019 (UTC)
Considering that we never find out when exactly in Mondas’ history the colony ship was built and sent, along with the fact that the events there took place over thousands of years, shouldn’t we place it under the ‘Undated events’ section? It would make more sense, especially for pages like this where we’re dealing with Cybermen as a whole, not just individuals.
CyberFoundries900 ☎ 15:35, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
- In my opinion, any attempt a linear Cybermen timeline is pretty much voided by The Doctor Falls’s explanation that Cybermen get started at various points in time and space as an inevitable risk of human-like civilizations. I think what we ought to do is have an "Origins" section with subsections by planet. For lack of any hard facts on in which order these origins happened, we could default to listing them in the order that the Doctor encountered them. It would go something like:
- == Origins ===
- === On Mondas ===
- === On Telos ===
- === On Marinus ===
- === In Pete's World ===
- === On the Mondasian Colony Ship ===
- What does everyone else think? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:51, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
That sounds like it could work, so long as said format is used only for an origins section. I’d also move the info on Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel and the games after them to the ‘alternate universes’ category as they occur in a separate universe to the other origins. Also it wouldn’t be too hard to edit seeing as most of the origins are placed early in the history section. I asked the question mainly to know how to arrange info of the history sections for the pages on general Cybermen topics, such as the Cyber-Lieutenant page (do I place the info from Alit in Underland, which takes place on the colony ship, before the other sections or after, for example).
CyberFoundries900 ☎ 16:10, October 16, 2019 (UTC)
More variants in the infobox gallery?[[edit source]]
Should there be more images added to the infobox? "N-Space" is a very broad term, and there have been multiple variants and designs. And then there are the likes of the more recent Cyber-Masters... should they be included too? — Fractal Doctor @ 15:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think that is a good idea. Any suggestions for said images? 17:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
In-keeping with the two we already have, I've tried to find some good screencaps to represent different models. [Gallery below.] The Mondasian one is facing left, and the majority of the core features are in frame (hollow eyes, cloth face, headlamp, chest unit). I found the Moonbase/Tomb ones trickier, as we're yet to have any good quality screencaps (ie. upscaled HD) but I've proposed one showing off the Cyber-controller with regular Cyberman in the background.
The one I've proposed for the Earthshock variants (are they called Cyber-scouts? Do they all have unique names?) is the one I'd argue most to use - not only does it show off a Cyber-Leader and a Cyberman, but I think it's a very clear shot of the designs and it also just so happens to feature them in a recognisable (arguably iconic) set ["Destroy them at once!"]
Attack, I've found similar. A Cyber-controller with a Cyberman in Cyber HQ on Telos, both of them decently in frame. Even though the regular Cyberman design is the same as the one in Earthshock (and Five Doctors), the Cyber-controller is different. I don't think we need to use this one - if we start trying to find images for every single variant, it'd be never ending (the one painted black, all the tweaks made over the years to various costumes, etc). The one I've found for Silver Nemesis is annoyingly lowish quality, but again shows a Cyber-Leader with a regular Cyberman in good profile. I'd argue these should be included over the Attack ones if only because they are noticably different now - cricket gloves, new overalls, chrome-finish for the helmets.
Of the ones I've suggested for the classic series, the one I'd most like to see is the one I've plucked from Earthshock. The others are just suggestions and I daresay there are probably better frames that others could grab that show off the Cybermen better.
(Also worth asking at this point, should we stick to official televised Cybermen only? If we start including variants from BBV and comics, for example, the gallery could go on forever.) — Fractal Doctor @ 17:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Excellent. — Fractal Doctor @ 17:34, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Just wanted to give this idea a nudge again, post-fork. I still believe covering a few of the main design variants would work well in an infobox gallery, showcasing various design evolutions since 1966. × Fractal • 10:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Seems reasonable. How would you label them? --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:55, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Would we be able to label them by the year they were first introduced? Alternatively, just "A", "B", "C", etc? × Fractal • 16:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
