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{{conjecture}}
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{{rename|Time before time}}
{{you may|Dark Times|n1=the Dark Times|time before this|n2=the time before this}}
{{cleanup|Since the vast majority of sources describes the "time before time" and [[Dark Times]] as the same thing, couldn't we refocus this page on the ''actual'' concept of a universe before N-Space, and ''briefly'' mention that a lot of what the Time Lords thought they knew about the pre-universe was actually about the Dark Times/Time Before Time?}}
Before the [[Big Bang]] of [[the Doctor's universe]], there was the "'''pre-universe'''". Various accounts give different perspectives of this state of (non-)existence.  
The '''time before time''', also called the '''Dvapara Yuga''' or the '''Protoverse''', ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Contributors (short story)|Contributors]]'') was the universe that preceded or was replaced by [[N-Space]].


== Description ==
A guide for [[time travel]]lers advised against travel to a time before the Big Bang. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Time Traveller's Diary (novel)}})
The most common understanding was that the current universe, which began in the [[Big Bang]], was preceded by another [[universe]] with different laws of physics. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit (TV story)|The Satan Pit]]'', ''[[Secrets of the Stars (TV story)|Secrets of the Stars]]'', [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Persuasion (audio story)|Persuasion]]'', [[PROSE]]: ''[[Millennial Rites (novel)|Millennial Rites]]'') The [[Sixth Doctor]] learned about the pre-universe from [[the Matrix]] during his time as [[Lord President]], and he described it to [[Anne Travers]]:


{{quote|Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.|Sixth Doctor|Millennial Rites (novel)}}
== Nothingness ==
{{Main|Time Zero}}
[[Kin (Nothing O'Clock)|The Kin]] remembered that the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of [[space]] and [[time]] smaller than an [[atom]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Nothing O'Clock (short story)}})


According to one account, the [[Seventh Doctor]] learned from the [[Carnival Queen]] that the [[Time Lord]]s had misinterpreted their knowledge of the pre-universe and, rather than being an actual separate [[universe]], the pre-universe was the state of reality before the Time Lords created the [[Web of Time]] ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'') during the [[anchoring of the thread]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[The Book of the War (novel)|The Book of the War]]'') The [[Kaliyuga]] did not merely follow the Dvapara Yuga, it replaced it. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Dharmayuddha (short story)|Dharmayuddha]]'')
The [[Second Doctor]] managed to trick the [[Vist]] into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of [[time]] before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before [[Event One]] and could never escape there. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|The Forbidden Time (audio story)}}) [[Sabbath Dei|Sabbath]] referred to this period of "no time" as [[Time Zero]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Time Zero (novel)}})


Before the Time Lords created the Web of Time, the universe obeyed no laws of physics, and [[magic]] was a powerful force. There existed cities with buildings carved from mile-high arches of [[ivory]], with streets made of [[cobweb]] and gardens tended by stone men. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'') Many [[human]]s had semi-[[god|divine]] powers: for instance, [[Arjuna]] had one thousand arms and was ardently skilled at compressing time, while [[Nakula and Sahadeva]] led armies of imaginary [[hybrid]] animals made of broken time. The [[Great Houses]]' plan for ending the Dvapara Yuga involved starting the [[Kurukshetra war]] between the [[Pandava]]s and [[Kaurava]]s. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Dharmayuddha (short story)|Dharmayuddha]]'') [[River Song]] noted a theory that the [[SporeShip]]s were leftover weapons from the war that wiped out the previous universe. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Signs (audio story)|Signs]]'')
When facing the Beast, the [[Tenth Doctor]] insisted that no life could have existed before [[N-Space|the universe]] came into existence. The Beast mocked this belief for being baseless and emotionally-driven, more akin to [[religion]] than scientific certainty. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Satan Pit (TV story)}})


According to the [[Kotturuh]], there had in fact been universes before the current one. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)|The Dawn of the Kotturuh]]'') [[Luke Smith]] theorised that the rules of [[astrology]] were based on the laws of physics of the previous universe, which is why the [[Ancient Lights]] seemed to conform to them despite them contradicting conventional physics. ([[TV]]: ''[[Secrets of the Stars (TV story)|Secrets of the Stars]]'')
[[The Dark (Fear of the Dark)|The Dark]] was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the [[Big Bang]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Fear of the Dark (novel)}})


According to the experiences of [[Kin (Nothing O'Clock)|the Kin]], the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of [[space]] and [[time]] smaller than an [[atom]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Nothing O'Clock (short story)|Nothing O'Clock]]'') The [[Second Doctor]] managed to trick the [[Vist]] into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of [[time]] before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before [[Event One]] and could never escape there. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Forbidden Time (audio story)|The Forbidden Time]]'') [[Sabbath Dei|Sabbath]] referred to this period of "no time" as Time Zero. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Time Zero (novel)|Time Zero]]'')
== Life and existence before the Big Bang ==
=== Ancestor-universes ===
{{Main|Ancestor-universe}}
According to one guide, there was a long lineage of universes before the [[Spiral Politic]], known as [[ancestor-universe]]s. They were so named because the creatures within them often spawned new universes (for this is how universes are made) called [[descendant-universe]]s. It was difficult to make a new universe which differed too much from one's own universe, meaning that [[unigenetics]] could be traced through a lineage which had [[evolution]] over time. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (short story)}})


== Natives ==
The [[Kotturuh]] believed they had been spreading the existence of [[mortality]] in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the [[Dark Times]] and believed they would do so again in [[After-universe|subsequent universes]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)}})
The [[Tenth Doctor]] said that no life could have existed before [[N-Space|the universe]] came into existence. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit (TV story)|The Satan Pit]]'') However, many races claimed to be older than the universe itself. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire (novel)|All-Consuming Fire]]'', ''[[Millennial Rites (novel)|Millennial Rites]]'', ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'', [[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit (TV story)|The Satan Pit]]'', [[AUDIO]]: ''[[Persuasion (audio story)|Persuasion]]'')


The [[Kotturuh]] believed they had been spreading what they saw as the "gift" of [[mortality]] in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the [[Dark Times]] and believed they would do so again in [[After-universe|subsequent universes]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)|The Dawn of the Kotturuh]]'')
According to the speculations of ''[[The Record of Rassilon]]'', the [[Gods of Ragnarok]] came from a [[Gods of Ragnarok's universe|prior universe]] that they destroyed. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Divided Loyalties (novel)}}) The [[Time Lord]]s had records of [[Great Old Ones' universe|the universe before theirs]] in [[the Matrix]], which the [[Sixth Doctor]] accessed in [[the Matrix]] during his time as [[Lord President]]. He later described it to [[Anne Travers]]:


The [[Guardian of Might]], [[Guardian of Magic]] and [[Champion of Neutrality]] were said to have existed in "the universe before and after this one" by one [[Time Lord]] account of their games. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Legends of Camelot (novel)|Legends of Camelot]]'')
{{quote|Before this universe was created, there was [[Great Old Ones' universe|another one]]. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.|Sixth Doctor|Millennial Rites (novel)}}


When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the [[Great Old One]]s, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them [[god]]-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire (novel)|All-Consuming Fire]]'', ''[[Millennial Rites (novel)|Millennial Rites]]'')
The belief this drove at was that the [[Great Old One]]s, powerful beings who often seemed unbound by the laws of physics and whom the Doctor faced many times, were actually surviving members of the race which had been equivalent to the Time Lords in this previous universe. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}}) The Gods of Ragnarok destroyed the universe of the Great Old Ones, ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Divided Loyalties (novel)}}) with [[River Song]] further saying that [[Previous universe war|a war]] wiped out the prior universe. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|Signs (audio story)}}) The Great Old Ones, however, escaped into the new universe to survive. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}})


[[The Beast (The Impossible Planet)|The Beast]] was trapped under [[Krop Tor]] by the [[Disciples of the Light]] before light, time, space, or matter existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Impossible Planet (TV story)|The Impossible Planet]]'') He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the [[Arkiphets]], [[Quoldonity]], [[Christianity]], [[Pash Pash]], [[New Judaism]], [[San Klah]], and the [[Church of the Tin Vagabond]]. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit (TV story)|The Satan Pit]]'')
One account held that the modern Time Lords' thoughts on what they believed was "the universe before the universe" was something stranger, however; according to this telling of events, through his encounter with the [[Carnival Queen]], the [[Seventh Doctor]] realised that the supposed "universe before the universe" was better described as being the "[[time before this]]", the state of reality in the [[Dark Times]] before early Time Lords managed to [[Anchoring of the thread|bind the structure of history]] and impose [[Reason|Rationality]] upon the universe, creating the very scientific chronology which included the Big Bang as the beginning of existence. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)}})


To survive in the new universe, some entities survived by rooting themselves in [[fantasy]] and [[faith]], becoming [[god]]s of different planets. In the [[Sol system]], [[Gaia]] aligned with [[Earth]], [[Ares (Wandering Stars)|Ares]] with [[Mars]], [[Aphrodite]] with [[Venus]], [[Pan]] with [[El Mundo]], and [[Hestia]] with [[Planet 5]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[The Rise and Fall of Señor 105 (novel)|The Rise and Fall of Señor 105]]'')
[[Entropy Siren]]s were said to have existed before the universe. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|The Entropy Composition (audio story)}})


The [[Shepherd and Shepherdess]] escaped the "extinction of their universe" and arrived in [[N-Space]], where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Persuasion (audio story)|Persuasion]]'')
=== Surviving the Big Bang ===
[[The Beast (The Impossible Planet)|The Beast]] was trapped under [[Krop Tor]] by the [[Disciples of the Light]] before "light, time, space, or matter" existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Impossible Planet (TV story)}}) He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the [[Arkiphets]], [[Quoldonity]], [[Christianity]], [[Pash Pash]], [[New Judaism]], [[San Klah]], and the [[Church of the Tin Vagabond]]. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Satan Pit (TV story)}})


[[Luke Smith]] speculated that the [[Ancient Lights]] came from before the universe. ([[TV]]: ''[[Secrets of the Stars (TV story)|Secrets of the Stars]]'')
The entity called the [[Solitract]] existed in the primordial period where the constituting parts of the universe were swirling together and had not yet come together to actually form the universe. The Solitract was "banished" to the [[Solitract plane]] by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. [[Anti-zone (It Takes You Away)|Anti-zones]] formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. ([[TV]]: {{cs|It Takes You Away (TV story)}})


[[Jack Harkness]] said that the [[Syriath]] had been trapped within [[Cardiff Space-Time Rift|the Rift]] since before time. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The House of the Dead (audio story)|The House of the Dead]]'')
When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the [[Great Old One]]s, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them [[god]]-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|All-Consuming Fire (novel)}}, {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}})


[[Entropy Siren]]s were said to have existed before the universe. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Entropy Composition (audio story)|The Entropy Composition]]'')
The [[Shepherd and Shepherdess]] escaped the extinction of [[Shepherd and Shepherdess' universe|their universe]] and arrived in [[N-Space]], where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|Persuasion (audio story)}})


[[Iris Wildthyme]] knew that the [[Time Lord|Lord Temporal]] of [[the Clockworks]] originated from the previous universe but had crossed the rapids between cosmoses to tend their [[Spiral Politic|Tale Without Meaning]] to the exclusion of everything else. Their [[TARDIS|Wordships]] each began as single sounds carried over from the pre-universe, amplified and refined, until it became alive and was added to the Tale. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[First Meetings (short story)|First Meetings]]'')
[[Luke Smith]] speculated that the [[Ancient Lights]] originated from before the universe. While under their influence, [[Martin Trueman]] confirmed that the Lights had survived the Big Bang. ([[TV]]: {{cs|Secrets of the Stars (TV story)}})


[[The Dark (Fear of the Dark)|The Dark]] was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the [[Big Bang]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Fear of the Dark (novel)|Fear of the Dark]]'')
The consciousness called the [[Solitract]] existed in this period and was "banished" to the [[Solitract plane]] by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. [[Anti-zone (It Takes You Away)|Anti-zones]] formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. ([[TV]]: ''[[It Takes You Away (TV story)|It Takes You Away]]'')
At the [[Deadly Boutique]], [[Jessie (Enter Wildthyme)|Jessie]] was transformed into a creature from before time began. [[Brenda]] wrote about this "funny do" in her [[letter (Brenda's B&B)|letter]] to the readers of the [[Brenda and Effie|book series]] about herself and [[Effie Jacobs|Effie]], written by [[Paul Magrs (Bafflement and Devotion)|Paul Magrs]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Brenda's B&B (short story)|Brenda's B&B]]'')
[[Category:Universes and dimensions]]
[[Category:Universes and dimensions]]
[[Category:History]]
[[Category:History]]
[[Category:Universe]]
[[Category:Universe]]

Latest revision as of 21:27, 12 November 2024

"Pre-universe" is a title based upon conjecture.

Check the behind the scenes section, the revision history and discussion page for additional comments on this article's title.

You may be looking for the Dark Times or the time before this.

Before the Big Bang of the Doctor's universe, there was the "pre-universe". Various accounts give different perspectives of this state of (non-)existence.

A guide for time travellers advised against travel to a time before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Time Traveller's Diary [+]Loading...["Time Traveller's Diary (novel)"])

Nothingness[[edit] | [edit source]]

Main article: Time Zero

The Kin remembered that the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of space and time smaller than an atom. (PROSE: Nothing O'Clock [+]Loading...["Nothing O'Clock (short story)"])

The Second Doctor managed to trick the Vist into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of time before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before Event One and could never escape there. (AUDIO: The Forbidden Time [+]Loading...["The Forbidden Time (audio story)"]) Sabbath referred to this period of "no time" as Time Zero. (PROSE: Time Zero [+]Loading...["Time Zero (novel)"])

When facing the Beast, the Tenth Doctor insisted that no life could have existed before the universe came into existence. The Beast mocked this belief for being baseless and emotionally-driven, more akin to religion than scientific certainty. (TV: The Satan Pit [+]Loading...["The Satan Pit (TV story)"])

The Dark was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Fear of the Dark [+]Loading...["Fear of the Dark (novel)"])

Life and existence before the Big Bang[[edit] | [edit source]]

Ancestor-universes[[edit] | [edit source]]

Main article: Ancestor-universe

According to one guide, there was a long lineage of universes before the Spiral Politic, known as ancestor-universes. They were so named because the creatures within them often spawned new universes (for this is how universes are made) called descendant-universes. It was difficult to make a new universe which differed too much from one's own universe, meaning that unigenetics could be traced through a lineage which had evolution over time. (PROSE: The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic [+]Loading...["The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (short story)"])

The Kotturuh believed they had been spreading the existence of mortality in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the Dark Times and believed they would do so again in subsequent universes. (PROSE: The Dawn of the Kotturuh [+]Loading...["The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)"])

According to the speculations of The Record of Rassilon, the Gods of Ragnarok came from a prior universe that they destroyed. (PROSE: Divided Loyalties [+]Loading...["Divided Loyalties (novel)"]) The Time Lords had records of the universe before theirs in the Matrix, which the Sixth Doctor accessed in the Matrix during his time as Lord President. He later described it to Anne Travers:

Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.Sixth Doctor [Millennial Rites (novel) [src]]

The belief this drove at was that the Great Old Ones, powerful beings who often seemed unbound by the laws of physics and whom the Doctor faced many times, were actually surviving members of the race which had been equivalent to the Time Lords in this previous universe. (PROSE: Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"]) The Gods of Ragnarok destroyed the universe of the Great Old Ones, (PROSE: Divided Loyalties [+]Loading...["Divided Loyalties (novel)"]) with River Song further saying that a war wiped out the prior universe. (AUDIO: Signs [+]Loading...["Signs (audio story)"]) The Great Old Ones, however, escaped into the new universe to survive. (PROSE: Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"])

One account held that the modern Time Lords' thoughts on what they believed was "the universe before the universe" was something stranger, however; according to this telling of events, through his encounter with the Carnival Queen, the Seventh Doctor realised that the supposed "universe before the universe" was better described as being the "time before this", the state of reality in the Dark Times before early Time Lords managed to bind the structure of history and impose Rationality upon the universe, creating the very scientific chronology which included the Big Bang as the beginning of existence. (PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet [+]Loading...["Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)"])

Entropy Sirens were said to have existed before the universe. (AUDIO: The Entropy Composition [+]Loading...["The Entropy Composition (audio story)"])

Surviving the Big Bang[[edit] | [edit source]]

The Beast was trapped under Krop Tor by the Disciples of the Light before "light, time, space, or matter" existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. (TV: The Impossible Planet [+]Loading...["The Impossible Planet (TV story)"]) He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the Arkiphets, Quoldonity, Christianity, Pash Pash, New Judaism, San Klah, and the Church of the Tin Vagabond. (TV: The Satan Pit [+]Loading...["The Satan Pit (TV story)"])

The entity called the Solitract existed in the primordial period where the constituting parts of the universe were swirling together and had not yet come together to actually form the universe. The Solitract was "banished" to the Solitract plane by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. Anti-zones formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. (TV: It Takes You Away [+]Loading...["It Takes You Away (TV story)"])

When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the Great Old Ones, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them god-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire [+]Loading...["All-Consuming Fire (novel)"], Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"])

The Shepherd and Shepherdess escaped the extinction of their universe and arrived in N-Space, where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. (AUDIO: Persuasion [+]Loading...["Persuasion (audio story)"])

Luke Smith speculated that the Ancient Lights originated from before the universe. While under their influence, Martin Trueman confirmed that the Lights had survived the Big Bang. (TV: Secrets of the Stars [+]Loading...["Secrets of the Stars (TV story)"])

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