Forum:What makes an ally and an enemy?

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I've recently been trying to clear up Category:The Doctor's allies and Category:The Doctor's enemies. Mini-mitch also made me aware of this discussion concerning companions.

So, what makes an enemy and what makes an ally?

We have categories full of subcategories for both; Allies and Enemies.

The definition I came up with that I put on the Category:The Doctor's allies category page is:

To be added to these sub-categories the individual needs to have made a decision to become an ally to the Doctor's cause or to assist him in some major way.

I toyed with adding "the individual must have free will", after finding objects like the Anne Droid in the Ninth Doctor's category.

People who aren't the Doctor's allies are people he happens to meet along the way and who render assistance like Edith in The Time Meddler, she gives him food, but that's not exactly becoming an ally.

I think if you're an ally to the Doctor it's like joining his cause or his mission, you become entangled in his adventure.

What makes an enemy is a little trickier to define.

In my mind the individual needs to have come into conflict with the Doctor or sought to cause him harm, and it has to be him not his companions, because that's what the categories are called (and we've got all the various people in the Category:Enemies).

An example of someone I think is not an enemy of the Doctor is Senior Guard in Day of the Daleks, he's the one who informs on the Controller to the Daleks. His actions, may have been influenced by the Doctor being in the room, but his target was the Controller. There is no direct conflict between the Guard and the Doctor.

I don't think species can be enemies of the Doctor, unless it's explicitly stated. For example the Monoids aren't an enemy of the First Doctor, because it wasn't the whole species warring against him it was less than half a dozen of them. But the Daleks are, because it's been explicitly stated and demonstrated.

I do think we need to come up with some clear definitions of both to prevent mis-categorisation of articles into either category. --Tangerineduel / talk 13:24, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

As a matter of practicality, companions are not allies. It creates far too much recursion in the category tree to have a structure like:

category:First Doctor allies

category:First Doctor companions

Consequently, I've completely divorced "companions" from "allies" in the category tree as a part of the current round of tedious application o {{NameSort}}.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  <span style="">03:12: Wed 01 Feb 2012 

An ally is someone who directly helps the Doctor in a major way throughout his adventures. I would say that Canton Delaware is an ally of the Eleventh Doctor because of the help he provided through his search for the Silence. However, the Clerics from his adventures with the Weeping Angels are not his allies. They may work with them, but not enough to help the Doctor in his side of the adventures.

An enemy to me is simply enough: It an person/thing/organisation that is either a direct threat to the Doctor, tries to prevent the Doctor from reaching his objective or tries to harm the Doctor in anyway. They are not the X Doctor enemies if they only try do one on the above to their companions.

I think a course of action we could take is to remove everything from X Doctor Allies and X Doctor Enemies and work through each Doctor and saying who we think they are their allies and enemies - and why. MM/Want to talk? 14:11, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

I am offering a bit of a preamble to my thoughts on this subject. I apologize to anyone who feels I am wandering off the point or that I am harping on these issues everyplace, but they are, I feel, rather basic to the writing in this wiki. The same question arises in the related thread about three hundred seventeen too many characters being listed as companions. There is a tendency to multiply classifications, as if they are awards for good behavior, and a long string of them a mark of excellence. Continued indefinitely it becomes idiotic. I think we need to pull back well before that point (if we haven't already), delist a few people as companions, get rid of a few classes -- I noticed today that someone added a new one "Trojan Royalty" that strikes me as useless, since it's six related people in one story in which most of the episodes are missing.

The efforts in this thread to adequately define an ally or enemy strikes me as both worthwhile -- it's always good to know what your terms actually mean -- and ridiculously precious. What does "ally" mean hear but someone who doesn't rise to the rank of a companion of the doctor for whatever reason or prejudice we care to apply? It's like being awarded a medal second class or with oak leaf clusters or whatever distinction some authority chooses to make between people in order that everyone can feel appreciated and unique. Nonetheless, that's what it means "Order of the Companion, Second Class." Given the typical proliferation of ranks in a class-ridden society, this will undoubtedly strike some as distinctions that are important. I find it ridiculous. Boblipton ^{talk to me} 00:34, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

ok, i think that to be either an ally or an enemy, the person/object must have free will. the android shouldn't be classified as an ally in my opinion because it had no mind of it's own and was controlled by a computer program of sorts that meant it could be used for or against the doctor. it would be like calling a gun an ally or an enemy.

i also think the person/object must be purposefully trying to go for or against the doctor to count. if a character, for example, did something that hindered the doctor but didn't do it to harm the doctor, it was just an accident or mistake, then that character shouldn't be considered an enemy.

so basically, an ally should be a person who willingly helps the doctor (who is not also a companion) and an enemy is someone who purposefully hinders the doctor. also, in the case of the clerics, they aren't allies as they weren't willingly helping the doctor, they were following orders to help him, meaning they don't count. Imamadmad ^{talk to me} 05:59, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying then, that the Raston Warrior Robot is not an enemy of the Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth or Eighth Doctors? I would argue that it is, despit its lack of mind.

One of the big questions that comes up is that of Multi-Doctor stories. Is Sarah Jane Smith a first Doctor ally because of The Five Doctors? Or do the two chareactors have to communicate or something? OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 07:03, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

The first rule of category creation is that the categories must be clear and unassailable. Any category about companions is going to violate this rule, but we have to live with that. It's a part of the very fabric of fandom that people disagree over who was or wasn't a companion. Beyond this and a few other "fan favourite" kinda things, we should take a very firm stance against introducing speculation in category names. It's not a great practice to use a category to say what an article couldn't. And nothing would be quite such a lightning rod for potential edit wars as "List of the Doctor's enemies", or "List of the Doctor's friends".

Indeed, both the allies and enemies range of categories start a whole new fight which can never be resolved. Trying to find the exact line when stops being a mere adversary and becomes an enemy is a fool's errand. Harder still is trying to delineate between someone who's simply not opposed to the Doctor, someone who likes the Doctor but does nothing to help him, someone who threatens the companion but not the Doctor, someone who opposes the Doctor (but later repents), and, say, the Master himself. There's more than enough anecdotal evidence given here, and at the excellent Enemies thread to demonstrate the unsoundness of these categories.

I therefore find myself only somewhat agreeing with user:Mini-mitch. Yes, they should be emptied of their contents. But they should then be deleted and never be restarted.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  <span style="">18:13: Sat 04 Feb 2012 

Well, I frankly don't see that much a problem with the categories, I think that they're a very useful group of categories that helps one identify who someone has encountered. I think deleting it would be going too far. May I also note that is involved in the Game of Rassilon? OS25 (talk to me, baby.) 20:09, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

there will always be edit wars on a wiki. i don't think we should delete a whole category because it might start one. we just need some stricter guidelines as to what counts as a friend or an enemy so we can hopefully prevent wars from happening by making the definitions more clear. this is why Tangerineduel started this discussion anyway.

it's easy to tell if someone is "simply not opposed to the doctor". they neither help nor hinder him or doing what they're doing because they are getting paid for it eg an inn keeper who is housing the doctor just as they would house anyone else in return for money. things like "someone who likes the doctor but does nothing to help" and "someone who threatens the companion but not the doctor" are harder to classify as either an ally or an enemy or nothing, but that's what this discussion is here for. personally, i think no and no for those two categories as neither directly helps nor hinders the doctor himself. also, "someone who opposes the doctor but later repents" could potentially fit in both the ally and enemy category, as long as it states in their article why they are in both (an explanation of why they went good after being bad). Imamadmad ^{talk to me} 21:37, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Well, the fact that a category is currently involved in the Game of Rassilon is irrelevant to the discussion. No editing track will survive forever. Though none have been closed to date, almost every editing track will eventually be closed in favor of new ones. This will give older editors some badges which are no longer attainable, thus encouraging people to edit in the new categories more quickly. Put another way, category:Fourth Doctor enemies is only hanging on by a single, easily-removed tick mark.

And you can't get stricter guidelines on the meaning of a simple noun. "Enemy" and "ally" have multiple connotations. Different people will assess them differently. You can't really have two nouns that are much more vague. They're just unsuitable for category names. You've mentioned that these categories are "useful", though. So amplify that point please. How are they useful? Far as I can see, they're just making maintenance of the wiki take much longer without adding any solid facts to the wiki. Remember: categories have a responsibility to be accurate, just as much as the articles themselves.
czechout<staff /> ☎ ✍  <span style="">09:24: Sun 05 Feb 2012