Talk:Dimensions in Time (TV story): Difference between revisions

From Tardis Wiki, the free Doctor Who reference
(→‎Common Sense: new section)
m (this bot script identified more false positives than actual dead links so I'm reverting all of its talk page edits)
Tag: Manual revert
 
(17 intermediate revisions by 14 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
==Reconising==
{{ArchCat}}
''(This came from Producton Errors Section)''<br>
[[Susan Foreman|Susan]] does not recognise the [[Sixth Doctor]] as [[the Doctor]] nor does [[Ace]] recognise the [[Sixth Doctor]] as hers, yet [[Victoria Waterfield |Victoria]] recognises the [[Third Doctor]], [[Leela]] recognises the [[Seventh Doctor]] and the [[Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart|Brigadier]] recognises the Sixth Doctor as an 'old friend' although [[Battlefield|this doesn't happen after the Seventh regeneration and ''Dragonfire'']]. However, the Doctor recognises some their own future companions: the [[Sixth Doctor]] remembers Ace although he hasn't met her and the [[Third Doctor]] recognises [[Melanie Bush|Mel]] never having met her either. Similarly, [[Nyssa]] and [[Perpugilliam Brown |Peri]] show no surprise at meeting each other, even though they never met on the original series.
:The illusion theory hits a snag, however, during scenes in which the Doctor is seen with more than one companion; could Ace's consciousness be split between two different people? Similarly, at least one companion, Romana II, is seen on her own and she doesn't actually encounter a Doctor. ''Romana not encountering a Doctor makes sense considering her Doctor, the Fourth, isn't directly involved in events; this is contradicted somewhat by Leela encountering a Doctor, however, these three errors could be explained by the Rani by changing the Time Line, or Romana may not have been taken out of time and placed in the loop, if the novels are taken into account, she and Leela should both be on Galifrey, which explains how Leela knew which companion she was in, where the unspecified K-9 model are from''


== Release at home ==
== Request move to Dimensions in Time (TV story) ==


"This story was produced on condition that it would never be repeated or released on VHS or DVD." This has to be a error, right? Considering that the companies did not even start developing the DVD format until 1993 and didn't see its first release until 1995, I doubt that they would be able to say it couldn't be released on DVD. Surely the sentence should say "This story was produced on condition that it would never be repeated or released on VHS." [[User:TJ Spyke|TJ Spyke]] 23:50, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
Although not canon, it was still broadcast on TV. The templates for the Doctor Who Answers wiki, a spin-off of this site, default to having "(TV story)" in the links, so anyone attempting to discuss Dimensions in Time at that site is unable to properly cite the story. In addition, a disambiguation is needed given there is another TV episode with a similar title (as noted on the page). Could an admin please move this to [[Dimensions in Time (TV story)]]? Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.70.124|68.146.70.124]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.70.124#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:52, February 9, 2014 (UTC)


:A tweak in wording is definitely in order, but does anyone have a good source on what the agreement was? I imagined it wasn't in respect to format, just that it couldn't be repeated or given any home release. Checking Wikipedia, they say the agreement was that "it could never be repeated or sold on a home video for profit".  --[[User:Nyktimos|Nyktimos]] 22:20, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
== This is canon ==


== Oh yes it is: ==
I read the archive for the talk of this page and my question is why is this non-canon. And in addition, in [[First Frontier]], The Seventh Doctor says that Dimensions in Time was a dream so why not canon? [[User:Dragonulteo|Dragonulteo]] [[User talk:Dragonulteo|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
:It's not canon on this wiki. You can read the discussions that took place at [[Forum:Is Dimensions in Time canon]] and [[Tardis talk:Canon policy]]. Thanks! [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:04, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/index_az.shtml
== If this isn't canon then... ==


http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/dimensionstime/
Was just reading up on that archived discussion, and I have to ask: why is [[Assimilation² (comic story)|Assimilation²]] still regarded as canon when [[Star Trek (franchise)|Star Trek]] has also been established as fictional like EastEnders? [[User:TheFatPanda|TheFatPanda]] [[User talk:TheFatPanda|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:10, June 5, 2017 (UTC)


:Thank you for providing these links.
: The above statement is inaccurate. As the official [[T:CANON|canon policy]] states, this wiki has no canon. In particular, ''[[Assimilation² (comic story)|Assimilation²]]'' is not canon. Note also that some of the old discussions still operate in the times when canon existed. So reading them now may be a bit confusing in relation to the current rules. Stories are considered valid when they pass the [[T:VS|four validity rules]]. Please also be aware of [[T:BOUND]]: a validity discussion should not be reopened unless you have some piece of information that has not been discussed in the original discussion. Finally, regarding fictional characters, there is a place for them in DWU: it's called the [[Land of Fiction]]. So being fictional does not automatically disqualify a character/story. What matters is whether it is properly integrated with the DWU as a whole. If there is an explanation of how they are related, the story can (but don't have to) be valid. [[User:Amorkuz|Amorkuz]] [[User talk:Amorkuz|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:13, June 6, 2017 (UTC)
:Link to BBC's ep guide has been added to the external links section of page. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:14, July 29, 2012 (UTC)


So  the '''BBCs OWN WEBSITE''' lists ''Dimensions in Time'' under their Classic Series Episode Guide, gives it its own review, treats it exactly the same way it does everything from ''An Unearthly Child'' through to the ''The TV Movie'', and yet you STILL won't accept it into your "Doctor Who Universe" theory? This clearly isn't about logic, common sense, or valid cources. it's about your personal prejudices. '''If the BBCs Official Doctor Who Website includes it as part of the Classic Series then it is obviously retarded not to include it as part of the same saga and refer to the Doctor as non-canonical'''[[Special:Contributions/41.133.0.68|41.133.0.68]]<sup>[[User talk:41.133.0.68#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:47, July 29, 2012 (UTC)
== Revisiting the validity discussion ==


:You can see on this archived discussion [[Forum:Is Dimensions in Time canon]] and the forum discussions that link away from it that we as a community have discussed this before. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 13:54, July 29, 2012 (UTC)
Forgive me if this has been discussed somewhere, but the only thread I could find on the subject was the one linked in this talk page and it didn't cover this so...
The validity rules: 1 & 3 are straightforward
1. It's a story, so that's covered.
3. It was officially released.


So the discussion of a small group of people on an internet site is a greater authority than the BBC themselves? The OFFICIAL Doctor Who Website lists ''Dimensions in Time'' along with all the other First-to-Eighth Doctor tv serials under the "Classic Series Episode Guide". it has its own OFFICIAL BBC pages as part of the Series Proper. Those same BBC pages that list those particular episodes as part of the ''Doctor Who Universe'' that you kept pointing to.
4. Well, to look at from both Roden and JNT,


And, yet, your "community discussion" carries greater weight than Official BBC Policy!
To address one long-standing point often questioned, though Part Two aired within Noel's House Party - Part One was infact aired during the CiN teleathon.


The only real objection was that "because Eastenders exists as a tv show within the Doctor Who Universe the characters can't interact with then". What a load of crap that is. That removes Assimilation2 from the DWU. Actually that removes Doctor Who ITSELF as anyone who has seen ''Remembrance of the Daleks'' would deuce from your so-called "discussion".
Pixley's archive on Dimensions in Time in DWM 324 also states the following notable points:
* JNT was the one who, after rejecting Destination: Holocaust as too expensive a script for the CiN story, suggested incorporating ''Eastenders'' - meaning that the cross of the two franchises was a concerted decision of his.
* James Moir, the head of BBC Entertainment, facilitated the involvement of House Party for the second part *some time after* JNT & Roden had been brought onboard to do a story for CiN.
* House Party's crew was collaborating with CiN in the same way that Who's crew was.
* Agreement was made that [Tony] "McHale would approve the script to ensure that the dialogue spoken by the Eastenders cast was in character." Thus, DiT had script consultant input and oversight from the other franchise that appeared too. Though they obviously could not exactly fit the continuity of their show exactly, they were trying to keep it as continuous as they possibly could.
* Several times it is noted that JNT infact got Roden to write amendments to the script rather than doing them himself - most notably the last minute amendment to incorporate Susan.
* Hancock declined to allow the use of the Daleks within the story, and thus the brief appearance of them & the Dalek trooper had to be cut.


The BBC regards DWU as being official and part of THEIR "Doctor Who Universe". Clearly what YOU consider to be a "Doctor Who Universe" it COMPLETE:Y different to the way the BBC use the term. You still haven't adequately explained the way that you actually do use the term! But then the few times you did adequately explain your rationale, you immediately contradicted it!! To paraphrase Paul Cornell's oft-cited blog....''If you say something is or isn't part of the Doctor Who Universe, you're yelling a battle cry, not stating the truth. Because there is no truth here to find. And you're trying to assume an authority that you do not have. In the end, you're just bullying people''' {{unsigned-anon|41.133.0.68}}
That last one is of significant note, as it indicates that contrary to another fan myth that pops up here and there, JNT '''did''' approach relevant rightsholders for clearances.
:I regret that you feel alienated by our decision making process.  However, the only way we have of making decisions is to start a discussion and hope that people will join in.  If they don't, then we can only go with what obtains in that discussion.  This is a standard practice across all wikis, and is not really peculiar to us.  If you dislike this method, it's entirely possible that wiki editing may not be for you.  


:We're not "yelling a battle cry". We're not trying to "assume authority". We're just trying to find a few, reasonable boundaries so that we know how to write our articles.
This, coupled with the revelation Richard Bignell gave (which I've recently added to this page) that the fan belief that the story could not be commercially used was wrong & there were no contractual issues in that regard, leans in favour of fulfillment of Rule 2. And it also notes that JNT arranged with CiN to have a US convention screening of Dimensions in Time on that weekend, which does rather go further against the impression that the story could only ever be shown once on that specific occasion as part of CiN. [JNT also recounts this in DWM 249]
The story had all relevant rights negotiated and where they couldn't be agreed, a cut was made & the prohibition on a commercial release on a DVD or Blu-Ray is not rights or contractual but instead financial.


:It is not unreasonable to say that ''Dimension in Time'' is an invalid source, for reasons that have been given to you already at [[Tardis talk:Canon policy]]{{user:CzechOut/Sig}}&nbsp;<span style="{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}}">19:56: Sun&nbsp;29 Jul 2012&nbsp;</span>
I would think that would just leave Rule 4 & whether the story was intended to be part of the DWU.


::I've got to say that our anonymous friend #41 has a point here. Not that drawing the lines of what is and isn't part of the ''Doctor Who'' universe for our own internal purposes is invalid: to the contrary, it's necessary for what this wiki is trying to do. (We can't describe the contents of the ''Doctor Who'' universe unless we have some idea of what is and isn't part of it.)
Let's move to DWM 249 and start with JNT...
Everyone will have heard JNT's phrase: "I don't need to defend Dimensions in Time - it should be taken for what it is: a jolly romp to celebrate Doctor Who's thirtieth birthday."


::But he or she is correct that our arguments for excluding ''Dimensions in Time'' are rather weak, and that logically ''Assimilation<sup>2</sup>'' would be excluded by the same principle. (''Star Trek'' has been referred to as a television show on ''Doctor Who'', just as ''EastEnders'' has.) Rowan Earthwood is also correct in the point he made over at [[Tardis talk:Canon policy]]; the absence of rights for home video release is not the same as the thing being unlicensed in the first place. And the fact that the 2013 sections are inconsistent with ''EastEnders''{{'}} own continuity is really irrelevant to the question of whether it's part of the ''Doctor Who'' narrative.
Now aside that that statement's more about fielding criticism of the story, I want to draw attention to two other things within this issue...
Firstly, this statement: "I genuinely don't mind if Dimensions doesn't feature in any documentation ever. I couldn't care less."
That's interesting to me because it's not a statement of explicit discounting, rather just one of apathy to the matter.  


::If we're honest, we should admit that the real reason we've put ''DiT'' outside our fences is that it's not very good, and we're a bit embarrassed by it. And unlike other not-very-good bits of ''Doctor Who'', it stands alone, so it's easy for us to kick it out without ruffling too many feathers. But '''logically''', we don't have much ground to stand on with this decision. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] [[User talk:Josiah Rowe|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:59, July 30, 2012 (UTC)
Secondly, these two quotes:  
"I'd been impressed by an excellent non-Doctor Who script by David Roden that I'd been asked to read...I've been asked why I didn't use a more experienced Doctor Who writer. The fact is, I knew the thing would be mayhem, constantly changed, adapted, and interfered with (albeit often productively) by the various interested parties far more than is usual."
and
"Thus, I wanted a talented, yet relatively inexperienced co-writer who would adapt to this peculiar way of making a marathon; one which bares little resemblance to programme-making in the real world. And, with relentless enthusiasm, he did adapt."
Tying these two quotes back to what is noted in DWM 324, it seems that Roden was brought on explicitly to handle the weight of the story and the bulk of the fast-paced rewriting to the script required to take the story to its completion in production & that Roden was handling the majority of those rewrites for JNT as and when they came.


:::I've been saying we don't have a real reason for this for years! Our little anon definetly has a point. I've always found the argument that "Eastenders is a tv show in the DWU" to be quite a silly reason. Think about it, the only time we ever see an episode of Eastenders, it features two chareactors, but neither of them are in this episode. For all we know, the eastenders chareactors seen here aren't really in the show. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 21:42, August 3, 2012 (UTC)
So, now, we come to the other writer of this story, David Roden.
DWM 324 notates the original opening of Dimensions in Time with Cyrian being chased by Cybermen across a barren planet with the twist that Cyrian was doing it so the Rani could obtain the brain print of a Cyberman. It is then, surely noteworthy, that Roden later reworked this opening to make a short story - Rescue - for the DWM 1995 Yearbook?
The other stories within that yearbook as not marked as Invalid yet Rescue has been marked as such since 2013... my best gathering is that it may have been because it was a story written after DiT to link up to it... but even if one were to uphold Dimensions in Time as invalid, it surely wouldn't be correct to immediately associate that story as invalid when it's in a licensed publication with BBC approval like the other stories?
(Sidenote; the page for Cyrian himself allows denotes him as invalid with the now-disproven belief that there was a thorny legal situation behind Dimensions, so I suspect this belief was perhaps what led that for Rescue?)


The other thing is that when Dimensions in Time aired, Eastenders was '''not''' eastablished as a show within the so-called "Doctor Who Universe". THAT only happened over a dacde later. But you want to know the real reasons that people on this "fan" wikia don't want to include Dimensions in Time as part of their "Universe"?
I find it a bit hard to believe that Roden would write a story that effectively acts as a prelude to Dimensions in Time, adapted from material originally intended for Dimensions in Time, if his intent as a writer was not that Dimensions was part of the DWU.
[[User:JDPManjoume|JDPManjoume]] [[User talk:JDPManjoume|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
::This is some very impressive research-work, but it is ''completely'' improper to hold a discussion like this on a talk page. As soon as we have Forums again, you can create a forum thread with much the same content as the above. But '''no discussion is to start, or any action to be taken, based on ''this'' discussion.''' But you do have a strong case and some very compelling new evidence to justify the creation of that thread. Rule 4 concerns were always secondary to the Rule 2 concerns in this discussion, with the received wisdom being basically that we covered ''Dimensions in Time'' as a special exception, but that for all intents and purposes it was just the TV equivalent of a charity book.


1)It makes fun of Season 6B. See, that is because the Second Doctor and Jamie were older in The Two Doctors. But here, we have a 50-something Carole Ann Ford playing a 15/16-year-old Susan, travelling with the Furst Doctor, Ian and Barbara. We have a much older Third Doctor who recognises Mel. We have a much older Fourth Doctor travelling alone(and someone made a page on that which was deleted by the same humourless people). We have an older Fifth Doctor travelling with an older Peri and Nyssa. We have an older Mike Yates working for UNIT. The Seventh Doctor and Ace are with K9. If the pond life had to make a "Season 6B" to accomodate the Two Doctors, imagine all the fanwank they would need to come up with for this. This is following the advice of MST3K..."It's just a show and I should really just relax". Not write crappy "guides" which explain "continuity errors". And yes, Dimensions in Time IS part of the BBC's Official Classic Series Episode Guide
::Also, while I'm here, let me note that we recently had a thread on "Sequels/prequels to invalid stories" which confirmed that such stories are not ''necessarily'' invalid by association, but also declined to validate ''[[Rescue (short story)|Rescue]]'' from the get-go, because it was possible that if JNT didn't think ''DiT'' was in the DWU, Rodden agreed, and therefore, also being the author of ''Rescue'', that would have meant he also set it outside the DWU. However, an option for an individual ''Rescue'' inclusion debate in the long run was left open.


2)It kills off their lies. First "that the show was cancelled in 1989/90". No it wasn't. The production rights ahd been sold off to a non-BBC company, who were having troubles getting the show off the ground. But that's NOT cancellation. The next lie is that "the Virgin New Adventures are/were the official continuation of the series, overseen by the final production team, and carrying out the planned Season 27 storylines". Bullshit. JNT stated he never paid any attention to the books. What we have with Dimensions in Time is the actual produce(JNT) crafting a show featuring th actual actors portraying the actual characters, not words on a page. And, for all intents and purposes, the Doctor and Ace could have travelled directly from Perivale to the Cutty Sark. This is CLEARLY sstating "the show has NOT been cancelled, it's just going through behind-the-scenes problems. And NOTHING HAS HAPPENED SINCE SURVIVAL, regardless of what any other medium may claim". But it's the official attitude here to push the lies. Ace is still the companion in Dimensions in Time, and she's still the same Ace she was at the end of Survival. Sylvester Mccoy is the Doctor, the same Doctor he was at the end of Survival. This is a message saying "Please be patient, Doctor Who will return soon". Which means that anything callin itself the "official Doctor Who" released between December 1989 and November 1993 is NOT official Doctor Who. {{Unsigned-anon|137.158.153.203}}
::(I'd link you to the thread, but for the time being the Forum archives are inaccessible due to the UCP move.)[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:08, 25 November 2020 (UTC)


:Okay, a few points. 1) You know that the last season of ''Doctor Who'' was going to also be the last produced by JNT right? So whether he read the books or not is irrelevant to if the books are made in the way the show would. And Ace travelled with the Doctor for a long time after the show ended.
== How to cover the Doctor and companion appearances ==


:Furthermore, neither of youre points seem to have anything to do with why it shouldn't be canon. So what if the show might have still been in production, that's unimportant (As well as inaccurate, I think...) And you kind of sound like you're joking for #1. All Multi-doctor specials have that problem, you know... [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 11:28, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
Now that we're officially treating this story as valid as per [[Tardis:Temporary forums/Archive/An update to T:VS|this thread]], how do we cover the appearances of the past Doctors and companions in their respective articles? [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


1)If you want to know what would have happened in Season 27, then watch "Endgame" or listen to Series 2 of Big Finish's "Lost Stories". NONE of that corresponds with shit like Timewyrm or Cat's Cradle or... And the point was the Virgin people said that the books were "overseen by the last production team", so JNT having nothing to do with them is important. He was the alst producer. He was totally uninvolved with the books. Yet they claim the books were "overseen by the last production team". Get it?
: It's very confusing, but the text of the story says that all of these Doctors/companions have been pulled out of the Doctor's time stream, that they are their respective characters, but they sometimes hold a shared memory. So [[Melanie Bush]] is pulled out of time, but also remembers physically being [[Ace]] moments before. It's a mess, as we all know, but I think that's the intent of the story. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]][[User Talk:OttselSpy25|🤙☎️]] 00:00, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 
2)Ace was supposed to have been written out in the second story of Season 27. So having her "travelling with the Doctor for a long time after the show ended" is NOT "the way the series was planning to go". In addition the Doctor HIMSELF was supposed to regenerate at the end of Season 27, NOT have more than 50 adventurs, which would have had Mccoy playing the Doctor until about 2005, had the books been "the way the show was planning on going after Season 26".
 
3)Dimensions in Time IS canon. It is lisedt on the BBC's official Classic Seris Episode Guide. JNT said it is canon. It is the Doctor Who story set after "Survival". The point wasn't that Dimensions in Time is not canon, because it IS canon. The point is that Dimensions in Time illustrates that the VNA are NOT canon.
 
4)Yes, it was a joke. Multi-Doctor stories are fun, enjoyable tv. Sadly, some lonely people feel the need to overanalyse the stories, and create insane "fan theories" to explain away "continuity issues". i feel sorry for people like that.{{unsigned-anon|137.158.153.203}}
 
:::You mean people like the BBC? People like Terrance Dicks? Look, whether or not it was a joke is irelovant. And we're not going to just make the virgin books non-cannon just for that (And I agree they are mostly crap) We really shouldn't bring stuff like this into the discussion. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 12:52, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
::::Yep. As OS25 says, removing the Virgin novels from our list of valid sources is a '''completely''' different issue, and shouldn't be brought up here. If you really want to make that case, please start a new discussion at [[Forum:Panopticon]] (though I don't think you're likely to get very far). Similarly, discussions of the ([http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/season6b.shtml BBC-supported]) Season 6B theory and the (completely unsupported, and introduced here in order to make a {{w|WP:POINT|point}} about our policies) "Season 18B theory" belong elsewhere.  This is a discussion about whether ''Dimensions in Time'', on its own merits, should be included. I happen to think it should, but dragging in other issues isn't going to help the argument. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] [[User talk:Josiah Rowe|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:15, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
(edit note)I've undone the edit by the IP user. Unless it is proven otherwise in a new community discussion, Dimentions in Time is ''still'' considered non-canon by this wiki. {{User:Eladkse/SigReal|17:54,&nbsp;10/08/2012}}
::Yes, of coarse. Should we move this to a forum? [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 23:40, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 
== Common Sense ==
 
It is sad that any point will have the people here fixating on one minor sidepoint, and missing the central issue. Also, referring to that guy as "our little anon" is offensive. But anyway, the main point of this post if this:
 
Picture it. 1993. There has been no new Doctor Who on television since December 1989. The 30th anniversary is coming up. The BBC contacts Producer John Nathan Turner. Do you think they said "Hello. John. Would you be interested in writing a special non-canonical Doctor Who episode for the 30th anniversary"? Do you think they contacted Tom Baker and said "Tom. Any chance of returning for the 30th anniversary? But you will have to settle for playing a non-canonical Fourth Doctor!" Did they conatct Kate O'Mara and ask her if she would be willing to return to play "a non-canonical Rani"? Did Sophie Aldred return to play "a non-canonical Ace"? Did anyone think "Hmmm. Eastenders has never been mentioned in Doctor Who before now. BUT twelve years from now the show will be mentioned in a revived Doctor Who tv Show. Therefore, including characters from eastenders, clearly means this episode is not set in the Doctor Who Universe!"? Of course not! It was the Doctor Who 30th anniversary Special! NOT "a non-DWU", "non-canonical" adventure featuring "non-canonical" characters!

Latest revision as of 20:24, 25 April 2023

Archive.png
 Archives: #1

Request move to Dimensions in Time (TV story)[[edit source]]

Although not canon, it was still broadcast on TV. The templates for the Doctor Who Answers wiki, a spin-off of this site, default to having "(TV story)" in the links, so anyone attempting to discuss Dimensions in Time at that site is unable to properly cite the story. In addition, a disambiguation is needed given there is another TV episode with a similar title (as noted on the page). Could an admin please move this to Dimensions in Time (TV story)? Thanks. 68.146.70.124talk to me 15:52, February 9, 2014 (UTC)

This is canon[[edit source]]

I read the archive for the talk of this page and my question is why is this non-canon. And in addition, in First Frontier, The Seventh Doctor says that Dimensions in Time was a dream so why not canon? Dragonulteo ☎ 15:01, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

It's not canon on this wiki. You can read the discussions that took place at Forum:Is Dimensions in Time canon and Tardis talk:Canon policy. Thanks! Shambala108 ☎ 15:04, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

If this isn't canon then...[[edit source]]

Was just reading up on that archived discussion, and I have to ask: why is Assimilation² still regarded as canon when Star Trek has also been established as fictional like EastEnders? TheFatPanda ☎ 20:10, June 5, 2017 (UTC)

The above statement is inaccurate. As the official canon policy states, this wiki has no canon. In particular, Assimilation² is not canon. Note also that some of the old discussions still operate in the times when canon existed. So reading them now may be a bit confusing in relation to the current rules. Stories are considered valid when they pass the four validity rules. Please also be aware of T:BOUND: a validity discussion should not be reopened unless you have some piece of information that has not been discussed in the original discussion. Finally, regarding fictional characters, there is a place for them in DWU: it's called the Land of Fiction. So being fictional does not automatically disqualify a character/story. What matters is whether it is properly integrated with the DWU as a whole. If there is an explanation of how they are related, the story can (but don't have to) be valid. Amorkuz ☎ 00:13, June 6, 2017 (UTC)

Revisiting the validity discussion[[edit source]]

Forgive me if this has been discussed somewhere, but the only thread I could find on the subject was the one linked in this talk page and it didn't cover this so... The validity rules: 1 & 3 are straightforward 1. It's a story, so that's covered. 3. It was officially released.

4. Well, to look at from both Roden and JNT,

To address one long-standing point often questioned, though Part Two aired within Noel's House Party - Part One was infact aired during the CiN teleathon.

Pixley's archive on Dimensions in Time in DWM 324 also states the following notable points:

  • JNT was the one who, after rejecting Destination: Holocaust as too expensive a script for the CiN story, suggested incorporating Eastenders - meaning that the cross of the two franchises was a concerted decision of his.
  • James Moir, the head of BBC Entertainment, facilitated the involvement of House Party for the second part *some time after* JNT & Roden had been brought onboard to do a story for CiN.
  • House Party's crew was collaborating with CiN in the same way that Who's crew was.
  • Agreement was made that [Tony] "McHale would approve the script to ensure that the dialogue spoken by the Eastenders cast was in character." Thus, DiT had script consultant input and oversight from the other franchise that appeared too. Though they obviously could not exactly fit the continuity of their show exactly, they were trying to keep it as continuous as they possibly could.
  • Several times it is noted that JNT infact got Roden to write amendments to the script rather than doing them himself - most notably the last minute amendment to incorporate Susan.
  • Hancock declined to allow the use of the Daleks within the story, and thus the brief appearance of them & the Dalek trooper had to be cut.

That last one is of significant note, as it indicates that contrary to another fan myth that pops up here and there, JNT did approach relevant rightsholders for clearances.

This, coupled with the revelation Richard Bignell gave (which I've recently added to this page) that the fan belief that the story could not be commercially used was wrong & there were no contractual issues in that regard, leans in favour of fulfillment of Rule 2. And it also notes that JNT arranged with CiN to have a US convention screening of Dimensions in Time on that weekend, which does rather go further against the impression that the story could only ever be shown once on that specific occasion as part of CiN. [JNT also recounts this in DWM 249] The story had all relevant rights negotiated and where they couldn't be agreed, a cut was made & the prohibition on a commercial release on a DVD or Blu-Ray is not rights or contractual but instead financial.

I would think that would just leave Rule 4 & whether the story was intended to be part of the DWU.

Let's move to DWM 249 and start with JNT... Everyone will have heard JNT's phrase: "I don't need to defend Dimensions in Time - it should be taken for what it is: a jolly romp to celebrate Doctor Who's thirtieth birthday."

Now aside that that statement's more about fielding criticism of the story, I want to draw attention to two other things within this issue... Firstly, this statement: "I genuinely don't mind if Dimensions doesn't feature in any documentation ever. I couldn't care less." That's interesting to me because it's not a statement of explicit discounting, rather just one of apathy to the matter.

Secondly, these two quotes: "I'd been impressed by an excellent non-Doctor Who script by David Roden that I'd been asked to read...I've been asked why I didn't use a more experienced Doctor Who writer. The fact is, I knew the thing would be mayhem, constantly changed, adapted, and interfered with (albeit often productively) by the various interested parties far more than is usual." and "Thus, I wanted a talented, yet relatively inexperienced co-writer who would adapt to this peculiar way of making a marathon; one which bares little resemblance to programme-making in the real world. And, with relentless enthusiasm, he did adapt." Tying these two quotes back to what is noted in DWM 324, it seems that Roden was brought on explicitly to handle the weight of the story and the bulk of the fast-paced rewriting to the script required to take the story to its completion in production & that Roden was handling the majority of those rewrites for JNT as and when they came.

So, now, we come to the other writer of this story, David Roden. DWM 324 notates the original opening of Dimensions in Time with Cyrian being chased by Cybermen across a barren planet with the twist that Cyrian was doing it so the Rani could obtain the brain print of a Cyberman. It is then, surely noteworthy, that Roden later reworked this opening to make a short story - Rescue - for the DWM 1995 Yearbook? The other stories within that yearbook as not marked as Invalid yet Rescue has been marked as such since 2013... my best gathering is that it may have been because it was a story written after DiT to link up to it... but even if one were to uphold Dimensions in Time as invalid, it surely wouldn't be correct to immediately associate that story as invalid when it's in a licensed publication with BBC approval like the other stories? (Sidenote; the page for Cyrian himself allows denotes him as invalid with the now-disproven belief that there was a thorny legal situation behind Dimensions, so I suspect this belief was perhaps what led that for Rescue?)

I find it a bit hard to believe that Roden would write a story that effectively acts as a prelude to Dimensions in Time, adapted from material originally intended for Dimensions in Time, if his intent as a writer was not that Dimensions was part of the DWU. JDPManjoume ☎ 14:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

This is some very impressive research-work, but it is completely improper to hold a discussion like this on a talk page. As soon as we have Forums again, you can create a forum thread with much the same content as the above. But no discussion is to start, or any action to be taken, based on this discussion. But you do have a strong case and some very compelling new evidence to justify the creation of that thread. Rule 4 concerns were always secondary to the Rule 2 concerns in this discussion, with the received wisdom being basically that we covered Dimensions in Time as a special exception, but that for all intents and purposes it was just the TV equivalent of a charity book.
Also, while I'm here, let me note that we recently had a thread on "Sequels/prequels to invalid stories" which confirmed that such stories are not necessarily invalid by association, but also declined to validate Rescue from the get-go, because it was possible that if JNT didn't think DiT was in the DWU, Rodden agreed, and therefore, also being the author of Rescue, that would have meant he also set it outside the DWU. However, an option for an individual Rescue inclusion debate in the long run was left open.
(I'd link you to the thread, but for the time being the Forum archives are inaccessible due to the UCP move.)Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 15:08, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

How to cover the Doctor and companion appearances[[edit source]]

Now that we're officially treating this story as valid as per this thread, how do we cover the appearances of the past Doctors and companions in their respective articles? WaltK ☎ 17:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It's very confusing, but the text of the story says that all of these Doctors/companions have been pulled out of the Doctor's time stream, that they are their respective characters, but they sometimes hold a shared memory. So Melanie Bush is pulled out of time, but also remembers physically being Ace moments before. It's a mess, as we all know, but I think that's the intent of the story. OS25🤙☎️ 00:00, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://tardis.wiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dimensions_in_Time_(TV_story)&oldid=3494940"