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| ==Lis Sladen Tribute?==
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| Is there a source for Clara being named after Lis? Has Moffat or anyone in the cast/crew said so in an interview recently? I know a lot of people were speculating it after her name was leaked, but I haven't heard any confirmation about it. [[Special:Contributions/75.141.226.87|75.141.226.87]]<sup>[[User talk:75.141.226.87#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:37, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| :(Reply) I think it's blatantly obvious Steven named her so in memory of Sladen (he probably wrote Clara's Character around the time of Sladen's death [[Special:Contributions/88.104.219.234|88.104.219.234]]<sup>[[User talk:88.104.219.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:35, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::That's funny, I think it's blatantly obvious she's not named after Sladen. If I wanted to honor someone's memory, I would use a more recognizable name. How many NuWho viewers know Sladen's middle name, anyway? [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:11, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
| | == Separate articles for splinters == |
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| :::Exactly. I didn't know Lis's middle name was Clara until I saw people speculating the name was a homage. The timing gives weight to that theory, but it certainly doesn't prove anything. [[Special:Contributions/75.141.226.87|75.141.226.87]]<sup>[[User talk:75.141.226.87#top|talk to me]]</sup> 01:05, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
| | Okay so, I've been told that the decision to keep the info about Clara's splinters on a single page was made some time ago, not long after ''The Name of the Doctor''{{'}}s premier. |
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| :::"Elisabeth" would be a little too obvious. What does it matter how many NuWho viewers know it, anyway? Homages are often based on "little-known" facts. Like her birth and death dates. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] [[User talk:Noneofyourbusiness|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:23, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
| | But a few things have changed since then. In light of our recently changed policy about splitting Time Lord pages by incarnation, as well as the 2014 introduction of another Clara splinter (Winnie Clarence from ''Blood & Ice''), I believe Clara's splinters should, indeed, be split off into their own pages. |
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| : You're one of the only two people I've ever heard us the term "NuWho". I've found that it's used dis-respetively and suggest that you don't. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 00:42, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
| | Now, obviously doing pages for ''every single'' Clara that appears in the TBotD montage, or the ones on that one ''Blood & Ice'' page would be super impractical, which is why I suggest only giving the big three their pages. So; [[Oswin Oswald (Asylum of the Daleks)]], [[Clara Oswin Oswald (The Snowmen)]], [[Winnie Clarence (Blood & Ice)]]. |
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| :: I take it you mean Shambala108. I only echoed their word choice because I was replying to them. I think I've seen it used disrespectfully, but I wasn't sure if that was the case in this instance. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] [[User talk:Noneofyourbusiness|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:06, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
| | As for the other splinters, they could go on a single page like [[Clara Oswald's splinters]]. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| ==Speculation: Clara and Oswin==
| | : I feel that this idea makes perfect sense and would like to show my support. These splinters are near-enough separate characters, at least as much as, say, [[Shadow People (Extremis)|Shadow World replicas of characters]], who recieve separate pages. [[User:Bongolium500|Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500)]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC) |
| At this point it's only speculation that Clara Oswin Oswald and Oswin Oswald are the same person. In a show where we have gangers, meta-crises, identical relatives, etc, Clara and Oswin being the same person is ''one'' possibility. I think there should be a separate page for Clara Oswin Oswald until and unless it's proven that Clara and Oswin are the same person and not, for example, twins or triplets or gangers or what have you. [[Special:Contributions/75.141.226.87|75.141.226.87]]<sup>[[User talk:75.141.226.87#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:49, December 25, 2012 (UTC)
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| It is clearly stated in the episode "The snowmen" that her name is Clara Oswin Oswald and she is the woman who has died twice.
| | :: I completely agree with this proposal. Notable Clara splinters should get their own pages and "cameo" splinters getting collated on one page. |
| ::That's The Doctor's theory, not a fact. He's been incorrect in his theories and assumptions plenty of times before. [[Special:Contributions/75.141.226.87|75.141.226.87]]<sup>[[User talk:75.141.226.87#top|talk to me]]</sup> 20:07, December 25, 2012 (UTC) | | :: Only issues I have is the dabs; I feel like these are primary topics enough to not get dabs. The other thing is that a few Clara splinters appear in ''[[The Doctor: His Lives and Times]]'' which I feel should get their own pages but aren't as important as the aforementioned splinters. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC) |
| ::: Agreed with above, they are the same person and should be treated as one person until proven otherwise.
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| ::::Clearly they are closely related - the souffles, the same dialogue. Until we know how the three are related, I think it better to have one page for them all. -- [[User:Beardouk|Beardouk]] [[User talk:Beardouk|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 06:28, December 26, 2012 (UTC) | | ::: I also support this idea. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC) |
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| Does anyone see the aforementioned comment similar to harry potter? I'm sure it's not a reference, but the whole "The girl who died twice" "The boy who lived" amuses me. --[[File:Fletching.png|0x25px]]<span style="font-size:140%;">Stinky Troll</span><span class="plainlinks">[http://http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/User:Stinky_troll]</span>[[File:Farming.png|0x25px]] 05:50, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
| | :::: I mean… it's not even a question of primary topics, is it? We don't currently know of any other DWU individuals named [[Oswin Oswald]] or [[Winnie Clarence]] than those splinters. There ''is'' no question of dabbing to be head. (Before anyone asks, this even applies to [[Clara Oswin Oswald]]. Despite a popular fandom misconception perpetuated by archiveofourown.org's tagging system, Oswin is ''not'' the prime Clara's middle name, that is extremely explict in ''[[The Bells of Saint John (TV story)|The Bells of Saint John]]''.) |
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| ==Human or Dalek?==
| | :::: Either way, not made up my mind on the specifics yet, but this seems basically reasonable as a proposal. The dialogue in ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]'' does lean towards the splinters being in some metaphysical sense their own persons (River's "But they won't be ''you''. You, the real ''you'', will ''die''" comes to mind). And more importantly, ''[[Blood & Ice (comic story)|Blood & Ice]]'') is entirely rooted in hammering the point home that Winnie is not Clara and is leading her own life. We don't cover all [[Cwej (species)|Cwejen]] on [[Chris Cwej]], which seems like a good precedent. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC) |
| Which species should be entered into the info box? Although she is a Dalek during the course of the episode, she was not only originally human, but this is how she describes herself, even AFTER the Doctor reveals the truth to her.[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] [[User talk:Geek Mythology|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:23, September 1, 2012 (UTC)
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| :Whenever you have a character who "converts" to another species, the infobox species variable should be set to the original species. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}} {{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 23:17: Sat 01 Sep 2012</span>
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| ==Behind the scenes?==
| | ::::: This ruling comes from an exceptional circumstance where it overrules a Forum decision before our Forums are officially brought back. When I saw this discussion was restarted, I noticed that the original ruling of merging Clara's articles were made a whole month ''before'' ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]''. Even on the closing post, [[User:Tangerineduel]] made it explicit that the matter of separate pages were only to be revisited '''after''' the end of Clara's arc, although that didn't quite happen. |
| Should there be a behind the scenes section referencing the fact Coleman is playing the new companion and that the episode was designed to spark debate over whether Oswin Oswald is that new companion? Of course once the Christmas special airs this article will undoubtedly be updated, but it's a long time till then. [[Special:Contributions/70.72.211.35|70.72.211.35]]<sup>[[User talk:70.72.211.35#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:28, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
| | ::::: Under this understanding, added to our now ever-stablishing precedent of having separate pages for different incarnations of Time Lords (while Clara ''isn't'' a Time Lord, and these aren't "incarnations", it is only logical to draw a parallel here). Community consensus is clear that this process only improves our coverage of content both upon editing, and reading. More than that, another strong argument for separate pages comes from "multi Time Lord events", where an incarnation of said Time Lord meets themselves in another incarnation. For Clara, this also applies, as the "main" Clara Oswald meets [[Winnie Clarence|one of her splinters]] in ''[[Blood and Ice (comic story)|Blood and Ice]]''. |
| ::Actually, since it hasn't happened yet, any mention of the next companion is against [[Tardis:Spoiler policy|the spoiler policy]], so no, not yet. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 16:38, September 3, 2012 (UTC) | | ::::: [[User:WaltK]]'s proposal is hereby approved. [[Oswin Oswald]], [[Clara Oswin Oswald]] and [[Winnie Clarence]]. "Blink-and-you-miss" cameos present at the end of ''The Name of the Doctor'' and ''Blood and Ice'' echoes are, truly, more than enough covered under a single page called [[Clara Oswald's splinter]]s, which can also discuss the nature of the splinters itself. Should any further echoes of Clara appear in a story as more than aforementioned "quick cameos", they too can have a separate page. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC) |
| :::Jenna was featured in the televised preview clip for the 2012 Christmas Special which aired after ''The Angels Take Manhattan'', so is her reappearance still considered a spoiler?[[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:25, October 14, 2012 (UTC)
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| :::: [[T:SPOIL DEF|Yes.]] -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 20:27, October 14, 2012 (UTC)
| | Reviving this topic because, all these years later, my opinion on the "page for every single Clara splinter" thing has changed. I believe it can easily be done by numbering. The individual Clara’s in the TNotD montage are quite easy to define. The Clara on Gallifrey who talks to the First Doctor would be [[Clara Oswald splinter 1 (The Name of the Doctor)]] and so on. The same can potentially be done with the Clara’s on that one page of ''Blood and Ice''. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
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| I think Oswin and Clara are the same,any one who disagrees deserves to be exterminated | | :: That it ''could'' be done is one thing, but I'm uncertain that it would be useful. This feels adjacent to how we handle other-reality counterparts. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 00:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
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| == Alice Montague ==
| | ::: Agreed, these are splinters we know so little about that I'm not entirely sure what their articles could say beyond "they shouted for the Nth Doctor during X". We know even less about the ones seen in ''Blood and Ice''. [[User:BlueSupergiant|BlueSupergiant]] [[User talk:BlueSupergiant|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
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| It was the maid whose name was Alice; I don't recall Clara's first name being mentioned when she was in Governess mode. [[Special:Contributions/81.111.14.92|81.111.14.92]]<sup>[[User talk:81.111.14.92#top|talk to me]]</sup> 11:05, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| : You are correct. For some reason, someone kept putting that in even though it was ''Clara'' who called ''the other person'' "Alice". Hopefully it will stop now that there's a wikitext note about it. -- [[User:Noneofyourbusiness|Noneofyourbusiness]] [[User talk:Noneofyourbusiness|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:09, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
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| :: Check your episode again. The MAID addresses Clara as "Alice" when she arrives in the carriage. Clara never even mentions the word. The maid is NOT named Alice. [[User:NileQT87|NileQT87]] [[User talk:NileQT87|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:43, January 3, 2013 (UTC)
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| ==Why a single article? / Splitting article==
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| Did I miss a discussion? Exactly why are we covering Oswin and Clara on the same article? [[User:Digifiend]] moved the page on 26 December [http://tardis.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=move&user=&page=Oswin+Oswald&year=&month=-1&hide_patrol_log=1 Move log for Oswin Oswald here]. Stating:
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| :"Clara and Oswin are the same person.... but how that's possible I cannot explain, as she's now died twice.)"
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| Given that even he states that he can't explain I think that the pages should be separate until we have further information. Currently the article contains fairly vague statements like "seemingly in another life" for example. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:02, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| :I agree. It won't be that difficult to combine them later if necessary. After all, we just did that with [[the Master]] page and it was much bigger :) [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:32, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| :I brought this up earlier, but there wasn't much interest in having separate Clara and Oswin pages. I agree that they should be separate, though. As I said before, in a show with gangers, identical relatives, meta-crises, etc, it's mere speculation that they are the same person. We're not even told definitively in canon that they are the same person, all we have is The Doctor making his own speculations that they are, and his theories have been wrong plenty of times in the past as well. [[Special:Contributions/75.141.226.87|75.141.226.87]]<sup>[[User talk:75.141.226.87#top|talk to me]]</sup> 01:09, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :What about one article with "tabs" for each "incarnation"? The main page can be general info. Tab 1 "Asylum of the Daleks: Oswin Oswald", Tab 2 "The Snowmen: Clara Oswin Oswald", Tab 3: (The next version), and so on..... That way we can have separate articles and one article at the same time.
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| --14:09, December 28, 2012 (UTC) [[User:Deb1701|Loyal Companion]]
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| ::No, tabbing an entire article is pointless. You may as well just split the article rather than doing that. It makes it harder for both editors (who now basically have three separate articles on the same page one after the other) and readers (many of whom will only see the first tab if they don't notice it). --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 14:16, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :::Articles have now been split back up into [[Clara Oswald]] and back to [[Oswin Oswald]] with the latter reverted back to the last revision before Digifiend's move.
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| :::Both articles have also been move locked. However in the future if we find these articles need to be the same they can be merged back into one another. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 15:08, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::::Did the third incarnation of Clara Oswin Oswald end up anywhere (the one from the end of ''The Snowmen'')? It appears this content was lost in the split. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 16:49, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :::::That was one I wasn't really sure about. She's not given a name at the end of ''Snowmen'' so naming the article introduces problems.
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| :::::Any content - that she takes a shortcut through a graveyard and looks like Oswin/Clara can surely wait until we have an actual name for the character. --[[User:Tangerineduel|Tangerineduel]] / '''[[User talk:Tangerineduel|talk]]''' 16:57, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::::::Is it too speculative to call the third version ''just'' Clara (no last name)? We do know Sophie Miller-Sheen was credited as "Clara's Friend" and she only appeared in present-day setting with the third JLC character. Speaking of, the Clara's Friend page still links to 1892 Clara, so that needs to be reworded or removed. [[Special:Contributions/75.141.226.87|75.141.226.87]]<sup>[[User talk:75.141.226.87#top|talk to me]]</sup> 20:59, December 28, 2012 (UTC) | |
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| In other words, all we know of this "modern" Clara is that, according to the credits, her name is "Clara" and that she lives in "modern times" (Could be 2010s or 2020s) and that she has a friend. Aright, I'm gonna made the page name under [[Clara (Modern times)]]. The out-of-universe name is fine here, as that is how these are ususally titled. If we can think of a better name then one day we can rename it. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 21:08, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ==Chronological==
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| Just wondering why the page is set out separating the two different Claras by episode appearance, surely they should be chronological, in which case it would be Victiorain Clara before space age Oswin??
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| [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] [[User talk:Geek Mythology|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:09, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| Lots of speculation running around here. The most interesting one is if Clara Oswin Oswald and Oswin Oswald are the same being or not. And just to make the debate even more delightful, just who was that doppleganger in the graveyard at the end of "The Snowmen"? I think they all are, and here's my take.
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| Dalek Oswin had hacked into the Dalek systems. The Daleks are capable of "temporal displacement." My speculative thought is that the doomed Oswin (who considers herself to still be human) accessed that capability to transport herself out of the now shieldless Asylum but things didn't quite go as planned. While I think she managed to undo her conversion, I think she also inadvertently scattered multiple copies of herself throughout time. That would make all of them the same person and making a single page very appropriate. It also gives the Doctor an interesting puzzle to solve.
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| [[Special:Contributions/24.127.246.99|24.127.246.99]]<sup>[[User talk:24.127.246.99#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:51, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| : Here at TARDIS we do not allow speculation. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 19:22, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::I'm not disagreeing with your take, and I agree there should be one page for multiple Claras, just as there is one page for Timelord's with multiple incarnations, that doesn't really answer my question.
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| ::Until we hear otherwise we should assume the various Clara's are in sync with the normal universe, and so should be documented in chronological order:
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| *Victiorian (Clara),
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| *Modern (Cemetary), then
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| *Future (Dalek)
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| [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] [[User talk:Geek Mythology|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:00, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
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| :::Chronological order doesn't necessarily work in a show about time travel. If it did, we'd have to talk about 1960s Melody Pond before infant Melody Pond. In this case, narrative order works best (earlier episodes first), since it's the order that Moffat intended the viewer to experience the character. -- [[Special:Contributions/24.231.182.206|24.231.182.206]]<sup>[[User talk:24.231.182.206#top|talk to me]]</sup> 04:11, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::::It's not the narrative order, actually. It's the character's personal timeline. Otherwise, River's page would start with her death, then jump back to the Byzantium, then further back at the Pandorica, then all the way back to her birth, then forwards to her marriage, and so on. However, as far as Clara, as it stands now, we don't really know which came first in her experience, or even if both characters even share one experience. It's hard to stay organized when the universe is a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff.
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| [[User:SmallerOnTheOutside]] [[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] December 27, 2012
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| I believe that in the case of this article it is best to list it by order by the Doctor's timeline. Otherwaise we'll get remarks like "...the Doctor realised that she was the same person that he had met before" and such that wont make any sense without the section beforehand. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 14:35, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| :I think Clara's own viewpoint is irrelevant because she doesn't have one; she doesn't seem to remember her other incarnations, so there's no perception for her that they're part of her past or future (they could have happened in any order, as far as she's aware). There's only the Doctor's viewpoint and the universe's viewpoint. The universe's viewpoint is irrelevant, or an article about the Doctor would begin with him almost crashing into the Big Bang (in ''[[Castrovalva (TV story)|Castrovalva]]'', etc.) and end with him seeing the last humans in ''[[Utopia (TV story)|Utopia]]''. So only the Doctor's viewpoint matters in this instance. -- [[User:Rowan Earthwood|Rowan Earthwood]] [[User talk:Rowan Earthwood|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:07, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::Yes, without speculating, it does definitely seem as though she doesn't remember him. At the moment, there's nothing to prove otherwise. (Except maybe the fact that modern-day Clara stopped exactly at her own grave site. Either this was because she remembers or, just by coincidence, in which case it would be surprising that she didn't notice her own name on a headstone.) It's also possible that, even if the different incarnations don't have the same viewpoint, there is one original Clara that later stems into the other ones or even that each incarnation is created after the last one dies. Now I know that this is all speculation. Just putting everything on the table. Generally, character articles are written in order of the characters' own experiences, NOT the Doctor's experience (ie. [[River Song]]) and articles on things like places are written chronologically, which is also sort of the viewpoint of the place. If we are going with the possibility that each incarnation never experienced the lives of the other ones, then they should be listen in the order in which they existed, which, obviously, means chronologically. Or, if they truly are separate viewpoints, then I agree that the page should be separated as this is different from, say, different incarnations of a Time Lord (ie. [[Romana]]) as they're different people.
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| --[[User:SmallerOnTheOutside|SmallerOnTheOutside]] [[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:50, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::Technically the universe doesn't have a "viewpoint", but as far as non-time travellers are concerned, things happen in a certain order. If someone were to see the whole of the universe (Who isn't the doctor) they would see time travellers events out of order. That is why the page for each individual character is written from their own individual perspective, with means that because different people (the doctor and River Song for example) experience different events in different orders, so too their wiki pages document those events in different orders.
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| :: As Clara(s) have experinced events in different orders to the Doctor, then so too should her wiki page document them in her own subjective chronological order.
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| [[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] [[User talk:Geek Mythology|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 12:06, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::: Yes, but the issue is that "Clara"'s point of view of the order of things in unkown. Only the Doctor's view is know, so it should be sorted by his. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 15:18, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| == Species ==
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| It seems to me, since she has three different lives, that Clara is a Time Lady who survived the Time War. --[[User: BNSF1995|BNSF1995]], Alive since 1995 04:25, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| : Maybe so, but the talk page is for discussing the article itself, not theories. If you like, you can take this discussion to [[Howling:The Howling]], which, I should caution you, does contain spoilers. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:24, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| ==This is exactly like River Song vs Melody Pond last year==
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| This happened last year - editors were pretty sure of themselves when they weren't allowing River Song and Melody Pond to have the same wiki entry. I can see what you mean about Clara Oswald and Oswin Oswald having a separate entry but I think it's safe to just assume that they're the same person... for now. We can change it later on but I think there's a very high chance that they're the same person.
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| [[Special:Contributions/88.104.219.234|88.104.219.234]]<sup>[[User talk:88.104.219.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 16:39, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| (TheRedGoldfish - just not logged in)
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| :It wasn't that editors were sure River and Melody were different people, it was that at the time there was no proof in the aired episodes that they were the same. That is what matters in this wiki. For Clara/Oswin, all we have is that the Doctor thinks they're the same (and he's been wrong before) and that two of them have died. If we have to "assume" they're the same, then it becomes speculation, which is not allowed on in-universe pages.
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| :Incidentally, it's much easier to merge separate articles than to split out one article into many. That is why it's probably better to separate for now. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:10, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
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| :: Wow, you're consfused.
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| :: ''Speculation'' is when you presume the Doctor is wrong. It'd be like saying "Yeah, the Doctor ''said'' that this is just Strax brought back but... Maybe he's lying."
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| :: If the Doctor says something - and there's no proof or suggestion that he may be wrong then we ''automatically'' presume he's right until proven other wise.
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| :: On that hand, these pages still may need to be separated. The same way that there are diffrent pages for diffrent timelord regenerations, these "lives" of Clara may need to be documented on seperate pages, and then maybe one big one. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 01:34, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :::There's no need to insult someone just because you think they disagree with you. I'm not confused, you are misunderstanding my point. Would it help if you ignored my parenthetical comment? [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:47, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :::: I dodn't insult you, I just said you were confused, a step back from saying that you were wrong. Also, if you read forward, you will note that I agree with you to the point that these need to be separated. And, no it doesn't bacause it still has the bit about "The Doctor thinks they're the same... We have to presume they're the same..." [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 01:51, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ==Snowmen==
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| The year of the snowmen incident is incorrect. Should be 1842, not 1892.
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| :No. It is right. The teaser is 1842, the episode is 50 years later 1892.
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| --22:44, December 27, 2012 (UTC)[[User:Deb1701|Loyal Companion]]
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| == Clara (Victorian)'s Date of Birth ==
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| It says on her tombstone that Clara Oswin Oswald was born on November 23rd 1866. Should this piece of information be included in her biography or is it speculative? I mean, I guess it IS possible for that version of Clara not to have actually been born then, if we're going with theories like the original Clara at age 26 was splintered throughout time for example. Any thoughts?
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| -[[User:SmallerOnTheOutside|SmallerOnTheOutside]] [[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:29, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| [edit conflict]
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| : What? Speculation? How does no one one on this one page understand the word "speculaltion"?
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| : ''Speculation'' would be to say that the date on the tombstone was wrong. ''Speculation'' would be to implant some "she's sprinkled through time" theory. ''Speculation'' would be to say ''anything'' past what was said in the episode, or to say that anything said was a lie.
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| : In short, yeah. You can use the date on the page, just find a spot. :) [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 01:40, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| ::That is my opinion as well; I was just checking if there were any objections. I agree with you completely, but maybe someone would correct me. [[User:SmallerOnTheOutside|SmallerOnTheOutside]] [[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:22, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| :If you can see it on the TV screen then it's not speculation. It may change later, but right now that's what we know. There should be no edits made based on theories of who/what she is, only based on the narrative of the stories. Hope this helps! [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:37, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
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| == The Same? ==
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| Look, I want everyone to stop removing any suggestion that they are the same.
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| The Doctor said they were the same person somehow. It's speculation to try and pick out how. It's speculation to try and guess who else might exist. But most of all; it is ''speculation'' to suggest that he was, in any way, wrong.
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| Thus, each of the three "Clara" pages now has a description in it's intro of the Doctor claiming they were all the same. Please do not remove it. Please do not change it to say "They all looked the same" or whatever, please just leave "She was one of the three known people that the Doctor claimed were one in the same" alone. It is true, it is justified; it needs to be there. Please stop removing it. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 00:27, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| : No one is adding that they are the same. They are adding they look the same. You are the only person adding anything near the what you don't want people to say. [[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 00:35, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| :OS25, do you mean "one and the same?"
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| :Speak of the Devil, 80.177.152.215 got to it before me by about 10 seconds.[[User:SmallerOnTheOutside|SmallerOnTheOutside]] [[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:52, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| "One and the same" is just a long and interesting way of saying = "the same."
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| And no, I am trying to add that the Doctor claimed that they were the same person, or perhaps just "the same". That is true. That is important. That keeps getting removed. It's annoying. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 01:40, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
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| * I say it should be removed. There is nothing on screen to suggest the Doctor explicitly feels this way. All he knows is there is some sort of connection, and the Doctor is totally unaware of the third Clara and my understanding is we're not allowed to make assumptions regarding future episodes until they air anyway. The nature of Clara has not yet been revealed; for all we know she could be a Jack-like immortal, or clone or a set of gangers -- we can't make any assumptions yet. [[Special:Contributions/70.72.211.35|70.72.211.35]]<sup>[[User talk:70.72.211.35#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:34, January 2, 2013 (UTC)
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| : the statemen is fine, as well as accurate. No need to remove. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 00:00, January 3, 2013 (UTC)
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| == Pictures ==
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| Considering the fact that Miss Montague is not Clara's real name, wouldn't it be more suitable to have a picture of the barmaid Clara in the information box? Miss Montague is the woman she pretended to be and Clara is the woman she actually is. Therefore it would be better to have the Miss Montague picture at a part of the article where her alter alias is relevant to the page. Clara is only Miss Montague for about a quarter of the episode and the people watching it know that she's Clara the whole time; it's only the Latimer family and Alice that don't realise who she is and they learn her identity about twenty minutes before the end of the episode (except Alice who was unconscious at the time due to Vastra and Strax's arrival).[[User:Powerstaark|Powerstaark]] [[User talk:Powerstaark|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:39, January 3, 2013 (UTC)
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