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== Article title ==
== November 2013 rename discussion ==
When the article name is changed it'll need to be noted that he is not referred to as the War Doctor on screen, just in the closing credits, at least in the minisode (that may change, of course). Also, media are already beginning to refer to him as the Ninth Doctor, so a redirect of some sort will need to be added to [[Ninth Doctor]]. I will take the liberty if it isn't locked and no one else has done it already. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.70.124|68.146.70.124]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.70.124#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
:I think a hatnote on "Ninth Doctor" is better than a redirect. Furthermore, he isn't actually the "Ninth Doctor" because he isn't a "Doctor" due to breaking the "promise" and using a different name. Also, it had been made incredibly clear that Matt Smith is the Eleventh Doctor anyway. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 14:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


I think the name of this Doctor is a bit vague. The Eleventh Doctor refers to this one as his secret.  I think referring to him as "the Secret Doctor" is a more apt description than "Unknown Doctor", "Unknown Iteration" or "The Doctor (The Name of the Doctor)".  I figure this is better from a narrative point of view for the wiki until we get a more apt description from the show.
::His name is mentioned in July's issue of [[Sky Jacks (comic story)|Sky Jacks]], where the Doctor who ends the Time War is called the Renegade. That's about as in-universe as we're gonna get, and he's not called the Doctor then either. --[[User:Revanvolatrelundar|Revan]]\[[User_talk:Revanvolatrelundar|Talk]] 14:44, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


:I don't agree. He is credited as "The Doctor" in "The Name of the Doctor" so I believe it is a correct title for now for the article. When the Anniversary comes out I'm sure it will be changed but for now I think the current title is correct. --[[User:BorgKnight|BorgKnight]] [[User talk:BorgKnight|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 04:34, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
:::I suggest we wait until after the 23rd to make a decision on this. [[User:Silent Hunter UK|Silent Hunter UK]] [[User talk:Silent Hunter UK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:21, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


::"Unknown Doctor" is a bit vague, "unspecified past Doctor" would be quite consistent with what is shown on screen.[[Special:Contributions/86.160.61.43|86.160.61.43]]<sup>[[User talk:86.160.61.43#top|talk to me]]</sup> 08:41, May 19, 2013 (UTC)
::::Oh no. Please, we can't keep this name. That was good when he only appeared in "The Name of the Doctor". Now, he is in two different stories so... The Renegade or the War Doctor, I think. If they put "The War Doctor" in the credits, it is not an coincidence :) [[Utilisateur:Lady_Junky|Lady]] [[Discussion utilisateur:Lady_Junky|Junky]] 19:31, November 14, 2013 (UTC)


== Should this Doctor be added to the Incarnations of the Doctor group? ==
:::::Hopefully we'll get a better name for him next Saturday, but until then "The War Doctor" does seem the most appropriate. "The War Doctor" might not be an in-universe name, but neither is "The Doctor", and in my opinion just calling him "The Doctor" even with a parenthetical is even worse from an in-universe perspective since one of the few things we do seem to know about him is that he did not go by that name. [[User:Burzolog|Burzolog]] [[User talk:Burzolog|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
::::::Lady Junky, it's [[Tardis:Disambiguation policy#Disambiguation rules|site policy]] to use the name of the character's debut episode when disambiguation is needed. But I agree that this article should be called The War Doctor, as that's what he's called in Night of the Doctor's credits. {{User:Digifiend/SigReal|21:09,14/11/2013}}


The page used to be in this group, but CzechOut removed it because of 11 stating that "I said he was me, I never said he was the Doctor."
Hey guys :) As [[User:Silent Hunter UK|Silent Hunter UK]] has indicated, the wisest course of action is to simply wait until 23 November.  We want to make sure we've got the right name and that we understand who this character really is.  It would be a bad use of time to change the name of this article to "the War Doctor" only to find out next eek that it's not "the War Doctor" at all.  


Is this character not just as much The Doctor as the Valeyard or the Dream Lord? Just because this character either does not use, or is not worthy of the name "Doctor" doesn't mean he should not be in the same group. The 11th Doctor very obviously states that "Doctor Hurt" is the same person. It's in fact the same character. A name change doesn't mean he doesn't belong in the same group. At this point, he fits perfectly into the same group as the Valeyard or the Dream lord, both of which are still listed under Incarnations of the Doctor.
I've reverted the article to a point before ''[[The Night of the Doctor]]'' had been released. As with all prequels/preludes/teasers, its point was to stimulate the salivary glands, not to reveal any truths. It's important to remember that Moffat would be a poor showman indeed if he'd just given us the answers about Hurt's character. What, then, would be the need of the full episode? 


I think you're taking his quote about him not being the Doctor way too literally. Hurt is still quite obviously credited as the Doctor. You can't really argue with that. It's in big fat letters on the screen during the episode.
So let's just put this whole renaming thing on hold for a mere 8 days and write from a position of knowledge rather than speculation.  Remember: we didn't even actually see McGann turn into Hurt in this webcast, so we can't assert too much at this point.  Patience now will lead to better editing later. 
 
This figure is likely to be important to the whole mythos of the show, so let's make sure we get a good, solid, narratively-introduced name, rather than going from one credit-based name to another. {{user:CzechOut/Sig}}{{User:CzechOut/TimeFormat}} 00:38: Fri 15 Nov 2013</span>
 
:I can understand the rationale behind waiting to move the article, but surely it's stretching things a bit to say that we didn't see McGann turn into Hurt? We saw McGann regenerating, we cut away, then we saw a figure in the same clothes with the face of the young Hurt (in reflection). Just because there wasn't an on-screen morph doesn't mean that we can deny the clear implication. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] [[User talk:Josiah Rowe|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:14, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::Indeed, it's pretty clearly a regeneration story, we just didn't see a full morph because the minisode had a limited budget. And from Moffat's comments it's clear that the intent was for this to be a regeneration story. [[User:JagoAndLitefoot|JagoAndLitefoot]] [[User talk:JagoAndLitefoot|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 08:56, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::Moffat's comments are out-of-universe and therefore not valid sources for in-universe stories. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:11, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::Wait, so the guy who wrote the thing isn't a valid source on what happened in the episode? And yes, this was pretty obviously The Eighth Doctor regeneration story. We saw him take the potion, we saw the glow of a regeneration, and directly after the regeneration, we saw The Renegade. Ergo, it counts, in my opinion. --TC  16:42, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
::::: Please read the following pages and you will understand my point: [[Tardis:Point of view]], [[Tardis:In-universe perspective]], [[Tardis:Out-of-universe perspective]] and [[Tardis:Valid sources]]. There are certain rules we follow on this wiki regarding sources of information. 
 
::::: Also, when signing your posts, please use four tildes as described above; it will automatically include your user name and a link to your user page and talk page. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:00, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::I consider it a regeneration based on what I saw in the episode - it's pretty clear. Moffat's comments simply support that. [[User:JagoAndLitefoot|JagoAndLitefoot]] [[User talk:JagoAndLitefoot|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:33, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::::: They have a conversation about how their elixir can cause and control regenerations. The Eighth Doctor is convinced to drink the elixir saying "Make me a warrior" - a complete change into something else. He drinks the elixir, goes all glowy and painful, then you see a reflection of John Hurt in a polished surface. I'm pretty convinced this is a regeneration story - I'm surprised there's even a debate that it might not be. [[User:TARDIStraveler|TARDIStraveler]] [[User talk:TARDIStraveler|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:01, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
'There's no need for a Doctor anymore; make me a Warrior....  Doctor no more.'  I think that speaks for itself, don't you?  We should change the name of this page to 'The Warrior' or 'Warrior'.  Also 'The War Doctor' in the credits isn't in-universe. [[Special:Contributions/108.246.48.79|108.246.48.79]]<sup>[[User talk:108.246.48.79#top|talk to me]]</sup> 18:32, November 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
Just to be clear, as [[User:CzechOut]] stated above, this article will not be renamed until after the airing of the special on Nov. 23. As this discussion clearly proves, there is no consensus of what his name is, and hopefully the special will clear that up without us having to make up names based on different criteria. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:49, November 16, 2013 (UTC)
 
'''''He says 'Warrior'.  What is not clear about that?!?  He says it onscreen right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You sir do not make any since whatsoever.'''''  Also, we as a wiki are supposed to give the most accurate description we can.  'Warrior' has been the most accurate description since 14 November 2013.  Even if he is ''not'' called the Warrior the Doctor said, 'there's no need for a ''Doctor'',' (referring to himself in this context, as he says 'Doctor', not 'physician' or 'good man' or 'healer' or wise man') 'make me a ''Warrior''' (this is obviously supposed to refer to his next body as he is saying what he is going to become: he is no longer going to be the ''Doctor'', which is what this title suggests) '.'[[Special:Contributions/108.246.48.79|108.246.48.79]]<sup>[[User talk:108.246.48.79#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:34, November 17, 2013 (UTC)
 
:::108, I don't know who your comment is aimed at, but please read [[Tardis:No personal attacks]] and moderate your tone. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:21, November 18, 2013 (UTC)
 
* To put it simply it should be called "War Doctor" as John Hurt Doctor was explicitly called that.{{Unsigned|Cynical Classicist}}
 
Can't we just call him the Ninth Doctor? He is literally the same person and the numbering refers to his incarnations, so he is technically the ninth reincarnation of the Time Lord whom currently holds the name "Doctor". Additionally, he has been accepted by the tenth and eleventh reincarnations (as seen towards the end of "The Day of The Doctor") and has probably never actually been referred to in which reincarnation he was in (onscreen i.e. The Ninth Doctor). Could we possibly just shift each reincarnation from the current ninth, up by one? --[[User:Dark3000light|Dark3000light]] [[User talk:Dark3000light|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:10, November 23, 2013 (UTC)
 
== Ironic, no? ==
 
Isn't it ironic that the Doctor would turn himself into a dark, fearsome warrior when the Time War finally came for him, and yet the Master turned himself into an amnesiac pacifist as far away as he could get? A bit of a role reversal, no? '''<font color=#609000>d</font> [[User:Witoki|<font color=#609000>●</font>]][[User_talk:Witoki|<font color=#FF6090><small>●</small></font>]][[Special:Contributions/Witoki|<font color=#6090FF><small><small>●</small></small></font>]]''' 16:17, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 
== 'Doctor', 'Warrior', and the Gamma Forest ==
 
'Doctor' and 'Warrior' are the same thing in the Gamma Forests. Should we reference that?[[Special:Contributions/108.246.48.79|108.246.48.79]]<sup>[[User talk:108.246.48.79#top|talk to me]]</sup> 02:32, November 17, 2013 (UTC)
 
shouldn't he be called the Warrior{{Unsigned-anon|67.242.154.94}}
:I think there is a hint to that, but we really don't have enough to go on right now. The connection between the warrior incarnation of the Doctor and the Gamma Forests will likely become clear once the full episode airs. I'd rather hold off adding anything like that until then. --[[User:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#A70000">'''Snorlax'''</span>]][[User talk:SnorlaxMonster|<span style="color:#0000A7">'''Monster'''</span>]] 11:05, November 19, 2013 (UTC)
 
==The Valeyard==
Since this is the 9th iteration, and we've seen 10,11,12 for the new Doctor Who... then during Trial of a Time Lord where it is mentioned that the Valeyard is distilled from the darkness between the 12th and 13th regenerations, then wouldn't the Valeyard actually be the War Doctor in disguise? as Matt Smith is meeting him at his own grave, and the next Doctor will be 13, then this must be the Darkness.
-- [[Special:Contributions/70.24.244.51|70.24.244.51]]<sup>[[User talk:70.24.244.51#top|talk to me]]</sup> 11:03, November 19, 2013 (UTC)
: Go watch Trial of a Time Lord again. At no point is the phrase "13th regeneration" uttered. The actual dialogue is "Somewhere between your 12th and final regeneration." And Night of the Doctor established this to be a bona fide regeneration, just one the Doctor has chosen not to count for reasons that may or may not be explained later. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.70.124|68.146.70.124]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.70.124#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:04, November 21, 2013 (UTC)
 
==Use of the name==
Somewhere in the Behind the Scenes it should be noted that, so far, the name "War Doctor" has only been used in the credits (and John Hurt used it when he was interviewed by the Daily Mail), and not uttered on screen. This, of course, may change in the coming days. Or not. For what it's worth I support waiting till the special airs before making a final determination on the article name itself since the name used for Hurt's Doctor has changed once already (from "The Doctor" in Name to "War Doctor" in Night) so for all we know it could change again in the special. For example, for all we know the special could indicate that the "War Doctor" goes by the John Smith alias or whatever, so presumably this article would have to be renamed that. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.70.124|68.146.70.124]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.70.124#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:07, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:39, 24 November 2013

Archive.png
This page is an archive. Please do not make any edits here. Edit the active conversation only.

November 2013 rename discussion[[edit source]]

When the article name is changed it'll need to be noted that he is not referred to as the War Doctor on screen, just in the closing credits, at least in the minisode (that may change, of course). Also, media are already beginning to refer to him as the Ninth Doctor, so a redirect of some sort will need to be added to Ninth Doctor. I will take the liberty if it isn't locked and no one else has done it already. 68.146.70.124talk to me 14:19, November 14, 2013 (UTC)

I think a hatnote on "Ninth Doctor" is better than a redirect. Furthermore, he isn't actually the "Ninth Doctor" because he isn't a "Doctor" due to breaking the "promise" and using a different name. Also, it had been made incredibly clear that Matt Smith is the Eleventh Doctor anyway. --SnorlaxMonster 14:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
His name is mentioned in July's issue of Sky Jacks, where the Doctor who ends the Time War is called the Renegade. That's about as in-universe as we're gonna get, and he's not called the Doctor then either. --Revan\Talk 14:44, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
I suggest we wait until after the 23rd to make a decision on this. Silent Hunter UK 19:21, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
Oh no. Please, we can't keep this name. That was good when he only appeared in "The Name of the Doctor". Now, he is in two different stories so... The Renegade or the War Doctor, I think. If they put "The War Doctor" in the credits, it is not an coincidence :) Lady Junky 19:31, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
Hopefully we'll get a better name for him next Saturday, but until then "The War Doctor" does seem the most appropriate. "The War Doctor" might not be an in-universe name, but neither is "The Doctor", and in my opinion just calling him "The Doctor" even with a parenthetical is even worse from an in-universe perspective since one of the few things we do seem to know about him is that he did not go by that name. Burzolog 20:28, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
Lady Junky, it's site policy to use the name of the character's debut episode when disambiguation is needed. But I agree that this article should be called The War Doctor, as that's what he's called in Night of the Doctor's credits.  Digifiend  Talk  PR/SS  KR  MH  Toku  JD  Garo  TH  CG  UM  Logos  CLG  DW  21:09,14/11/2013 

Hey guys :) As Silent Hunter UK has indicated, the wisest course of action is to simply wait until 23 November. We want to make sure we've got the right name and that we understand who this character really is. It would be a bad use of time to change the name of this article to "the War Doctor" only to find out next eek that it's not "the War Doctor" at all.

I've reverted the article to a point before The Night of the Doctor had been released. As with all prequels/preludes/teasers, its point was to stimulate the salivary glands, not to reveal any truths. It's important to remember that Moffat would be a poor showman indeed if he'd just given us the answers about Hurt's character. What, then, would be the need of the full episode?

So let's just put this whole renaming thing on hold for a mere 8 days and write from a position of knowledge rather than speculation. Remember: we didn't even actually see McGann turn into Hurt in this webcast, so we can't assert too much at this point. Patience now will lead to better editing later.

This figure is likely to be important to the whole mythos of the show, so let's make sure we get a good, solid, narratively-introduced name, rather than going from one credit-based name to another.
czechout<staff />    00:38: Fri 15 Nov 2013

I can understand the rationale behind waiting to move the article, but surely it's stretching things a bit to say that we didn't see McGann turn into Hurt? We saw McGann regenerating, we cut away, then we saw a figure in the same clothes with the face of the young Hurt (in reflection). Just because there wasn't an on-screen morph doesn't mean that we can deny the clear implication. —Josiah Rowe 05:14, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, it's pretty clearly a regeneration story, we just didn't see a full morph because the minisode had a limited budget. And from Moffat's comments it's clear that the intent was for this to be a regeneration story. JagoAndLitefoot 08:56, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
Moffat's comments are out-of-universe and therefore not valid sources for in-universe stories. Shambala108 15:11, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
Wait, so the guy who wrote the thing isn't a valid source on what happened in the episode? And yes, this was pretty obviously The Eighth Doctor regeneration story. We saw him take the potion, we saw the glow of a regeneration, and directly after the regeneration, we saw The Renegade. Ergo, it counts, in my opinion. --TC 16:42, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
Please read the following pages and you will understand my point: Tardis:Point of view, Tardis:In-universe perspective, Tardis:Out-of-universe perspective and Tardis:Valid sources. There are certain rules we follow on this wiki regarding sources of information.
Also, when signing your posts, please use four tildes as described above; it will automatically include your user name and a link to your user page and talk page. Shambala108 17:00, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
I consider it a regeneration based on what I saw in the episode - it's pretty clear. Moffat's comments simply support that. JagoAndLitefoot 18:33, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
They have a conversation about how their elixir can cause and control regenerations. The Eighth Doctor is convinced to drink the elixir saying "Make me a warrior" - a complete change into something else. He drinks the elixir, goes all glowy and painful, then you see a reflection of John Hurt in a polished surface. I'm pretty convinced this is a regeneration story - I'm surprised there's even a debate that it might not be. TARDIStraveler 19:01, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

'There's no need for a Doctor anymore; make me a Warrior.... Doctor no more.' I think that speaks for itself, don't you? We should change the name of this page to 'The Warrior' or 'Warrior'. Also 'The War Doctor' in the credits isn't in-universe. 108.246.48.79talk to me 18:32, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, as User:CzechOut stated above, this article will not be renamed until after the airing of the special on Nov. 23. As this discussion clearly proves, there is no consensus of what his name is, and hopefully the special will clear that up without us having to make up names based on different criteria. Shambala108 18:49, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

He says 'Warrior'. What is not clear about that?!? He says it onscreen right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You sir do not make any since whatsoever. Also, we as a wiki are supposed to give the most accurate description we can. 'Warrior' has been the most accurate description since 14 November 2013. Even if he is not called the Warrior the Doctor said, 'there's no need for a Doctor,' (referring to himself in this context, as he says 'Doctor', not 'physician' or 'good man' or 'healer' or wise man') 'make me a Warrior' (this is obviously supposed to refer to his next body as he is saying what he is going to become: he is no longer going to be the Doctor, which is what this title suggests) '.'108.246.48.79talk to me 02:34, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

108, I don't know who your comment is aimed at, but please read Tardis:No personal attacks and moderate your tone. Shambala108 14:21, November 18, 2013 (UTC)

Can't we just call him the Ninth Doctor? He is literally the same person and the numbering refers to his incarnations, so he is technically the ninth reincarnation of the Time Lord whom currently holds the name "Doctor". Additionally, he has been accepted by the tenth and eleventh reincarnations (as seen towards the end of "The Day of The Doctor") and has probably never actually been referred to in which reincarnation he was in (onscreen i.e. The Ninth Doctor). Could we possibly just shift each reincarnation from the current ninth, up by one? --Dark3000light 22:10, November 23, 2013 (UTC)

Ironic, no?[[edit source]]

Isn't it ironic that the Doctor would turn himself into a dark, fearsome warrior when the Time War finally came for him, and yet the Master turned himself into an amnesiac pacifist as far away as he could get? A bit of a role reversal, no? d 16:17, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

'Doctor', 'Warrior', and the Gamma Forest[[edit source]]

'Doctor' and 'Warrior' are the same thing in the Gamma Forests. Should we reference that?108.246.48.79talk to me 02:32, November 17, 2013 (UTC)

shouldn't he be called the WarriorThe preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.242.154.94 (talk).

I think there is a hint to that, but we really don't have enough to go on right now. The connection between the warrior incarnation of the Doctor and the Gamma Forests will likely become clear once the full episode airs. I'd rather hold off adding anything like that until then. --SnorlaxMonster 11:05, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

The Valeyard[[edit source]]

Since this is the 9th iteration, and we've seen 10,11,12 for the new Doctor Who... then during Trial of a Time Lord where it is mentioned that the Valeyard is distilled from the darkness between the 12th and 13th regenerations, then wouldn't the Valeyard actually be the War Doctor in disguise? as Matt Smith is meeting him at his own grave, and the next Doctor will be 13, then this must be the Darkness. -- 70.24.244.51talk to me 11:03, November 19, 2013 (UTC)

Go watch Trial of a Time Lord again. At no point is the phrase "13th regeneration" uttered. The actual dialogue is "Somewhere between your 12th and final regeneration." And Night of the Doctor established this to be a bona fide regeneration, just one the Doctor has chosen not to count for reasons that may or may not be explained later. 68.146.70.124talk to me 21:04, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Use of the name[[edit source]]

Somewhere in the Behind the Scenes it should be noted that, so far, the name "War Doctor" has only been used in the credits (and John Hurt used it when he was interviewed by the Daily Mail), and not uttered on screen. This, of course, may change in the coming days. Or not. For what it's worth I support waiting till the special airs before making a final determination on the article name itself since the name used for Hurt's Doctor has changed once already (from "The Doctor" in Name to "War Doctor" in Night) so for all we know it could change again in the special. For example, for all we know the special could indicate that the "War Doctor" goes by the John Smith alias or whatever, so presumably this article would have to be renamed that. 68.146.70.124talk to me 21:07, November 21, 2013 (UTC)