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== Why is this talk so inactive ==
== Separate articles for splinters ==
 
Why?{{Unsigned|Orangerichard56}}
 
:Two reasons:
:* First of all, when a talk page gets too long, its contents get archived. The previous conversations for this page have been archived to a page that you can reach by clicking the "archive" button at the top of this page. Keep in mind that there should be no posts added to a page once it has been archived. If you want to start a new post, or add to an existing one, you start a new one on this page. You can read more about archives at [[Tardis:Archiving policy]].
:* Second, on this wiki, talk pages are for discussing the editing of an article, not for general conversation about the topic. So at the moment, no one has any issues with the editing of the page. You can read more about talk pages at [[Tardis:Discussion policy]].
:Thanks! [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:46, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
== Time Lord? ==
 
Clara was on galifrey as an echo at one point but isnt it that all claras get brain pattern and genetic pattern meaning she must be human or idk ther is no information to explain either way she could of not been born ther and just appeared for that moment [[Special:Contributions/79.68.241.70|79.68.241.70]]<sup>[[User talk:79.68.241.70#top|talk to me]]</sup> 19:02, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
 
The way I understand it is that after jumping into the Doctors timeline, her personality and likeness where really all that was the same between the different versions of Clara. When she sees the Doctor steal the TARDIS, it is likely that incarnation of Clara was either an average Gallifreyan, or Time Lady. [[Special:Contributions/71.60.37.160|71.60.37.160]]<sup>[[User talk:71.60.37.160#top|talk to me]]</sup> 07:04, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
 
That is my understanding as well, supported by the evidence that Oswin Oswald and Clara from Snowmen are both physical beings. The scattering creates many copies with the same likeness, similar name, similar personality, and an inbuilt instinct to trust and help the Doctor. Therefore that version of Clara is, biologically, Gallifreyan. Whether she has graduated from the Academy and is a Time Lord, is a question that cannot be answered, as there is not enough information given. [[Special:Contributions/76.115.85.249|76.115.85.249]]<sup>[[User talk:76.115.85.249#top|talk to me]]</sup> 04:26, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
 
Wanna know what that means? It means there is (or might be) also an [[Alzarian]]!Clara, [[Trakenite]]!Clara, [[Trion]]-ese!Clara, and other Clara Echos in all humanoid species on most planets. (Of course since Clara Prime was an human- specifically the 2015's human Clara, all the non-human human-looking species have only one Echo Clara each.) Maybe the Doctor has already travelled with Echo Claras or relatives of Echo Claras, but he does not know it. As in one flashback scene Clara replaced [[Leela of the Sevateem]], Leela herself might actually be just Seevateem!Clara, just with a fake-tan, auburn dye, and going by an "honorary" nickname she may have gained after doing something in a rite-of-passage. Or as the human Clara Echos all happen to have the Oswald last name, maybe it's actually Clara "Leela" Oswald and her father David "Sole" Oswald, but they do not know they have a surname + are always going by honorary names. Or maybe if Leela is Clara it does not mean Sole is Dave, as even if Clara's biological father has to be same or similiar in all echos, some (or all) of the Claras might have been raised by a "father" that was not biological. (Plus, not only Sole looked a bit too old to see it perfectly, but faces can get longer with time. He's the one with white hair in the page image, right? He could as easily TOO just have a fake-tan and bleached, longer hair and beard, possibly just because of their different lifestyles, or because dying your hair and wearing fake tans is a Sevateem!Oswald's thing. And for Leela not caring for children as much as Clara does, maybe Sevateem women just do not care for children, or just most child Sevateem are always off doing something like studying stuff or catching preys. Any differences in facial features or build are either to: 1) Sevateems having a rougher lifestyle and different techs than your regular 2015's human, 2) Being played by Louise Jameson and not by Jenna Louise Coleman due to the latter not being born yet, 3) The appearances of various characters might be semi-simbolic and not actually what the character looks exactly like, think like how Kingdom Hearts fangirls often change Organization XIII's personality, and also change their eye colors\heights\face\skin colors to match their fanon personalities better. --[[User:Kaylabaraonda|Kaylabaraonda]] [[User talk:Kaylabaraonda|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
::This is speculation, and as such only belongs on [[Howling:The Howling]]. Per [[Tardis:Discussion policy]], talk pages are for discussing the '''editing''' of articles, not for discussing subjects that can only be answered with speculation. Thanks. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:43, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
So apart from the idea that there may in fact be a Clara on every planet the Doctor's visited, meaning a Clara for every (humanoid) species, we know for sure that there is a human Clara and dalek Clara, but we also know there's a gallifreyan Clara, so why can't we put "Gallifreyan" in the species box to join "Human,Dalek"? Just because we saw her as a Dalek longer than we saw her as a Galliffreyan doesn't mean we can't ignore her being a Gallifreyan. Otherwise, just keep her species only Human.
The problem is the "born and died, lived a million lives" line. If Clara entered the timestream and was split apart or just kept traveling and was a single person the whole time, then she would be Human. If she were born on a planet save the Doctor, then that echo becomes that species.
If the second theory is correct, then Clara was born on Gallifrey and was a Gallifreyan. If the first theory is correct, then she was always only Human, in which case she was converted into a Dalek. So which is it? [[User:Steed|Steed]] [[User talk:Steed|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:31, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
:Most of her clips have her appearing in a place, but then Victorian Clara Oswin Oswald, for instance, is shown growing up: as an infant, as a child, and eventually as an adult. It's difficult to tell if that's meant to imply that she spontaneously appears as an adult sometimes or if that was a creative choice on the part of the video editors. But we do know she didn't just appear as a fully fledged adult with pre-set memories in every case. We don't know if she was born literally or if "born" refers to the echoes popping into existence as we've never seen anyone pregnant or giving birth to an echo. Baby!COO could've appeared as an infant and been adopted into a family. We simply don't know because we only ever saw a woman holding her as an infant and then her growing up at that residence. For that matter, a human infant Clara could've appeared on Gallifrey and been adopted and raised there, making her a citizen of Gallifrey and in that sense, Gallifreyan, but still biologically human. Or she could be a visitor to the planet. Her clothes raise a question in my mind: can they be definitively pointed to as Gallifreyan? Other than anything her clothes or location might imply, there's nothing that proves that echo's species. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:20, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 
Since we don't have any story evidence that Clara's a Time Lord, we '''do not put it on articles'''. In addition, if all we can do is theorize about her possible species, then '''the discussion here has to end''', per [[Tardis:Discussion policy]], and can be moved to [[Howling:The Howling]] if anyone would like to further speculate. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:30, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 
== Memory ==
 
It wasn't really clear in ''The Day of the Doctor'' if Clara retained her memories of past incarnations after ''The Name of the Doctor''.  {{unsigned| DraconisWombat13203}}
 
She probably had them wiped or only retained very small accounts
 
they have to be in some shape or form the same person since clara vaguely recalls saving the doctor but does not remember where so we must assume she retained very little [[User:NarnianAslan1|All Hail Aslan]] [[User talk:NarnianAslan1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:43, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 
== Suggest ==
 
Suggest Moving of the other lives section to part of her history since they happend to her in her life [[User:Orangerichard56| Silence Fall                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ]] [[User talk:Orangerichard56|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:07, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
 
== Library Clara ==
 
How do we know the Echo-Clara that was seen in the Library was the same one that got made into a Dalek, Oswin Oswald? Am I forgetting something? Were they wearing the same clothes or what? --[[Special:Contributions/86.29.7.17|86.29.7.17]]<sup>[[User talk:86.29.7.17#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:07, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
 
 
Definatly positavely [[User:NarnianAslan1|All Hail Aslan]] [[User talk:NarnianAslan1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:45, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 
== Correction to name needed==
All references to "modern" Clara need to have the name "Oswin" removed as it is not her middle name as clearly stated in Bells of Saint John. So "Clara Oswin Oswald" was not born in 1989, but "Clara Oswald" was. If she has a middle name we've yet to learn it. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.70.124|68.146.70.124]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.70.124#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:02, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
 
== Did Clara go to university? ==
 
I noticed this page says "Clara wanted to travel after university." The reference for this is listed as ''The Bells of Saint John'', however I'm quite sure this fact was never established on screen in any episode. Was this mentioned in a book or other type of media, and if so can we have the correct reference? --[[Special:Contributions/121.45.249.181|121.45.249.181]]<sup>[[User talk:121.45.249.181#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:29, January 19, 2014 (UTC)
 
How could she get a job as a teacher if she didn't go to university? Nicolas Keough, co-author of Element 23:12, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 
:Per [[T:NO RW]], the ''Doctor Who'' universe isn't the same as the real world. We can't apply real world standards to events in the DWU.
:Also, please note that [[Tardis:Signature Policy]] requires that your signature link to your user page and your talk page. If your signature is customized, please fix it so it complies with this policy. Thanks. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:20, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 
In "the Rings of Akhaten" an image of Clara dressed in Cap-and-Gown and tossing her cap is shown on a display in the Tardis. The image appears during the Doctor's "she is/she can't be/she's not possible" monolougue. When the image appears on the display the Doctor says "she is." This indicates that she is probably a university graduate.


== Clara and Twelve - a bit early? ==
Okay so, I've been told that the decision to keep the info about Clara's splinters on a single page was made some time ago, not long after ''The Name of the Doctor''{{'}}s premier.


Isn't it a bit early to be declaring [[Clara Oswald]] a Twelfth Doctor companion? Yes, she ''is'' present at his regeneration, but that does not ''necessarily'' mean she will end up travelling with him. And per [[T:SPOIL]] and [[T:OFF REL]], we can't really say such a thing until she ''see'' her travelling with him in months' time.
But a few things have changed since then. In light of our recently changed policy about splitting Time Lord pages by incarnation, as well as the 2014 introduction of another Clara splinter (Winnie Clarence from ''Blood & Ice''), I believe Clara's splinters should, indeed, be split off into their own pages.


If you'd like to discuss {{tl|companions of the Twelfth Doctor}} specifically, please go to [[Template talk:Companions of the Twelfth Doctor]]. --[[user:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="SmallerOnTheOutside">SOTO</span>]] ([[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Give me a shout">☎</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="My contribs">★</span>]]\[[Special:Contributions/SV7|<span title="What my bot's been up to" style="font-size:80%">'''♆'''</span>]]) 22:46, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
Now, obviously doing pages for ''every single'' Clara that appears in the TBotD montage, or the ones on that one ''Blood & Ice'' page would be super impractical, which is why I suggest only giving the big three their pages. So; [[Oswin Oswald (Asylum of the Daleks)]], [[Clara Oswin Oswald (The Snowmen)]], [[Winnie Clarence (Blood & Ice)]].
== Comment ==
There is some missing information here.{{Unsigned-anon|213.122.226.10}}
:There is probably missing information for all the pages on this wiki. You have to be more specific.  


:Also, please read [[Tardis:Discussion policy]]. Most of your talk page edits have been removed for violating this policy. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:25, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
As for the other splinters, they could go on a single page like [[Clara Oswald's splinters]]. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


Where is Clara's comic stories in her History? Nicolas Keough, co-author of Element 21:47, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
: I feel that this idea makes perfect sense and would like to show my support. These splinters are near-enough separate characters, at least as much as, say, [[Shadow People (Extremis)|Shadow World replicas of characters]], who recieve separate pages. [[User:Bongolium500|Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500)]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
:Nicolas, Shambala108 already warned you about your signature a month ago. Please add links to your User page and user talk page at [[Special:Preferences]]. {{User:Digifiend/SigReal|02:06, 9/9/2014}}


==Comics/prose==
:: I completely agree with this proposal. Notable Clara splinters should get their own pages and "cameo" splinters getting collated on one page.
shouldn't Clara's page include her comic and novel adventures?{{Unsigned|PurpleSnitch6}}
:: Only issues I have is the dabs; I feel like these are primary topics enough to not get dabs. The other thing is that a few Clara splinters appear in ''[[The Doctor: His Lives and Times]]'' which I feel should get their own pages but aren't as important as the aforementioned splinters. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


:Yes. Please add them if you can.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 18:11, September 29, 2014 (UTC)
::: I also support this idea. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


== Clara's Abilities ==
:::: I mean… it's not even a question of primary topics, is it? We don't currently know of any other DWU individuals named [[Oswin Oswald]] or [[Winnie Clarence]] than those splinters. There ''is'' no question of dabbing to be head. (Before anyone asks, this even applies to [[Clara Oswin Oswald]]. Despite a popular fandom misconception perpetuated by archiveofourown.org's tagging system, Oswin is ''not'' the prime Clara's middle name, that is extremely explict in ''[[The Bells of Saint John (TV story)|The Bells of Saint John]]''.)
Shouldn't the fact that Clara does tae kwon do be referenced as an ability in that section. It was mentioned in Robot of Sherwood although we have never seen her engaged in battle.--[[Special:Contributions/190.163.85.33|190.163.85.33]]<sup>[[User talk:190.163.85.33#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:12, October 12, 2014 (UTC)


== Clara's Infobox ==
:::: Either way, not made up my mind on the specifics yet, but this seems basically reasonable as a proposal. The dialogue in ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]'' does lean towards the splinters being in some metaphysical sense their own persons (River's "But they won't be ''you''. You, the real ''you'', will ''die''" comes to mind). And more importantly, ''[[Blood & Ice (comic story)|Blood & Ice]]'') is entirely rooted in hammering the point home that Winnie is not Clara and is leading her own life. We don't cover all [[Cwej (species)|Cwejen]] on [[Chris Cwej]], which seems like a good precedent. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
Shouldn't Clara's infobox be focused on just the original Clara Oswald, rather than also including all of her copies? Despite being copies of the original, both Oswin Oswald and Clara Oswin Oswald were separate entities. Adding them all to the same infobox makes it crowded and confusing for newer viewers. [[User:66 Seconds|66 Seconds]] [[User talk:66 Seconds|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:54, November 8, 2014 (UTC)


==Story Placement==
::::: This ruling comes from an exceptional circumstance where it overrules a Forum decision before our Forums are officially brought back. When I saw this discussion was restarted, I noticed that the original ruling of merging Clara's articles were made a whole month ''before'' ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]''. Even on the closing post, [[User:Tangerineduel]] made it explicit that the matter of separate pages were only to be revisited '''after''' the end of Clara's arc, although that didn't quite happen.
::::: Under this understanding, added to our now ever-stablishing precedent of having separate pages for different incarnations of Time Lords (while Clara ''isn't'' a Time Lord, and these aren't "incarnations", it is only logical to draw a parallel here). Community consensus is clear that this process only improves our coverage of content both upon editing, and reading. More than that, another strong argument for separate pages comes from "multi Time Lord events", where an incarnation of said Time Lord meets themselves in another incarnation. For Clara, this also applies, as the "main" Clara Oswald meets [[Winnie Clarence|one of her splinters]] in ''[[Blood and Ice (comic story)|Blood and Ice]]''.
::::: [[User:WaltK]]'s proposal is hereby approved. [[Oswin Oswald]], [[Clara Oswin Oswald]] and [[Winnie Clarence]]. "Blink-and-you-miss" cameos present at the end of ''The Name of the Doctor'' and ''Blood and Ice'' echoes are, truly, more than enough covered under a single page called [[Clara Oswald's splinter]]s, which can also discuss the nature of the splinters itself. Should any further echoes of Clara appear in a story as more than aforementioned "quick cameos", they too can have a separate page. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


Flatline
Reviving this topic because, all these years later, my opinion on the "page for every single Clara splinter" thing has changed. I believe it can easily be done by numbering. The individual Clara’s in the TNotD montage are quite easy to define. The Clara on Gallifrey who talks to the First Doctor would be [[Clara Oswald splinter 1 (The Name of the Doctor)]] and so on. The same can potentially be done with the Clara’s on that one page of ''Blood and Ice''. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)


The Instruments of War - the Doctor tries to take Clara to the Frost Fair, mentions the Doctor "fitting in her purse" therefore after Flatline
:: That it ''could'' be done is one thing, but I'm uncertain that it would be useful. This feels adjacent to how we handle other-reality counterparts. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 00:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)


Silhouette - If Silhouette came before TIoW, because they visited the Frost Fair in Silhouette, why would the Doctor try to take Clara there (albeit in another century) later?
::: Agreed, these are splinters we know so little about that I'm not entirely sure what their articles could say beyond "they shouted for the Nth Doctor during X". We know even less about the ones seen in ''Blood and Ice''. [[User:BlueSupergiant|BlueSupergiant]] [[User talk:BlueSupergiant|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Is this correct?{{Unsigned|Purplehead}}

Latest revision as of 02:23, 13 March 2024

Archive.png
 Archives: #1, #2, #3

Separate articles for splinters[[edit source]]

Okay so, I've been told that the decision to keep the info about Clara's splinters on a single page was made some time ago, not long after The Name of the Doctor's premier.

But a few things have changed since then. In light of our recently changed policy about splitting Time Lord pages by incarnation, as well as the 2014 introduction of another Clara splinter (Winnie Clarence from Blood & Ice), I believe Clara's splinters should, indeed, be split off into their own pages.

Now, obviously doing pages for every single Clara that appears in the TBotD montage, or the ones on that one Blood & Ice page would be super impractical, which is why I suggest only giving the big three their pages. So; Oswin Oswald (Asylum of the Daleks), Clara Oswin Oswald (The Snowmen), Winnie Clarence (Blood & Ice).

As for the other splinters, they could go on a single page like Clara Oswald's splinters. WaltK ☎ 21:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I feel that this idea makes perfect sense and would like to show my support. These splinters are near-enough separate characters, at least as much as, say, Shadow World replicas of characters, who recieve separate pages. Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500) ☎ 21:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I completely agree with this proposal. Notable Clara splinters should get their own pages and "cameo" splinters getting collated on one page.
Only issues I have is the dabs; I feel like these are primary topics enough to not get dabs. The other thing is that a few Clara splinters appear in The Doctor: His Lives and Times which I feel should get their own pages but aren't as important as the aforementioned splinters. 21:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I also support this idea. LauraBatham ☎ 02:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I mean… it's not even a question of primary topics, is it? We don't currently know of any other DWU individuals named Oswin Oswald or Winnie Clarence than those splinters. There is no question of dabbing to be head. (Before anyone asks, this even applies to Clara Oswin Oswald. Despite a popular fandom misconception perpetuated by archiveofourown.org's tagging system, Oswin is not the prime Clara's middle name, that is extremely explict in The Bells of Saint John.)
Either way, not made up my mind on the specifics yet, but this seems basically reasonable as a proposal. The dialogue in The Name of the Doctor does lean towards the splinters being in some metaphysical sense their own persons (River's "But they won't be you. You, the real you, will die" comes to mind). And more importantly, Blood & Ice) is entirely rooted in hammering the point home that Winnie is not Clara and is leading her own life. We don't cover all Cwejen on Chris Cwej, which seems like a good precedent. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 02:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
This ruling comes from an exceptional circumstance where it overrules a Forum decision before our Forums are officially brought back. When I saw this discussion was restarted, I noticed that the original ruling of merging Clara's articles were made a whole month before The Name of the Doctor. Even on the closing post, User:Tangerineduel made it explicit that the matter of separate pages were only to be revisited after the end of Clara's arc, although that didn't quite happen.
Under this understanding, added to our now ever-stablishing precedent of having separate pages for different incarnations of Time Lords (while Clara isn't a Time Lord, and these aren't "incarnations", it is only logical to draw a parallel here). Community consensus is clear that this process only improves our coverage of content both upon editing, and reading. More than that, another strong argument for separate pages comes from "multi Time Lord events", where an incarnation of said Time Lord meets themselves in another incarnation. For Clara, this also applies, as the "main" Clara Oswald meets one of her splinters in Blood and Ice.
User:WaltK's proposal is hereby approved. Oswin Oswald, Clara Oswin Oswald and Winnie Clarence. "Blink-and-you-miss" cameos present at the end of The Name of the Doctor and Blood and Ice echoes are, truly, more than enough covered under a single page called Clara Oswald's splinters, which can also discuss the nature of the splinters itself. Should any further echoes of Clara appear in a story as more than aforementioned "quick cameos", they too can have a separate page. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 15:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Reviving this topic because, all these years later, my opinion on the "page for every single Clara splinter" thing has changed. I believe it can easily be done by numbering. The individual Clara’s in the TNotD montage are quite easy to define. The Clara on Gallifrey who talks to the First Doctor would be Clara Oswald splinter 1 (The Name of the Doctor) and so on. The same can potentially be done with the Clara’s on that one page of Blood and Ice. WaltK ☎ 00:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

That it could be done is one thing, but I'm uncertain that it would be useful. This feels adjacent to how we handle other-reality counterparts. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 00:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, these are splinters we know so little about that I'm not entirely sure what their articles could say beyond "they shouted for the Nth Doctor during X". We know even less about the ones seen in Blood and Ice. BlueSupergiant ☎ 00:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
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