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{{cleanup|This page seems to be a bit of a contradictory mess that maybe gives a little too much weight and credence to ''Christmas''{{'}} description being what other stories references of "before the universe" means. The ''Millennial Rites'' and ''Persuasion'' quotes on this page very clearly refers to "another one" and "extinction of their universe", while ''The Satan Pit'' says that the Beast was imprisoned "before time and light and space and matter... before this universe was created," when, quote, "'''''no life could have existed'''''". Not before the Time Lords or before Rassilon. Not before time was ordered and structured. Just before TIME. Hence the TARDIS being unable to translate the [[Krop Tor script]]. What exactly does ''Christmas on a Rational Planet'' say about the Big Bang, or as ''The Satan Pit'' puts it, "the cataclysm"?}}
{{conjecture}}
Before [[Rassilon]] created the [[Web of Time]] the universe was not dictated by logic. This '''pre-universe''', before the [[Time Lord]]s, was ruled by [[magic]] and chaos. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'')
{{you may|Dark Times|n1=the Dark Times|time before this|n2=the time before this}}
Before the [[Big Bang]] of [[the Doctor's universe]], there was the "'''pre-universe'''". Various accounts give different perspectives of this state of (non-)existence.


By [[the Doctor]]'s time, those who knew about the universe before it was made logically assumed that it was the universe that came before [[N-Space]]; according to some accounts, it was actually N-Space before history was created. When the universe was rationalised, many powerful species fled into other realities, many found their way back into [[N-Space]] and some (such as the [[Great Old One]]s) still followed the rules of the pre-Time Lord universe, giving them [[god]]-like powers. Thus, some of the most powerful beings in existence came from before [[Rassilon]] created a structure for time, making them older even than time itself. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire (novel)|All-Consuming Fire]]'', ''[[Millennial Rites]]'', ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'')
A guide for [[time travel]]lers advised against travel to a time before the Big Bang. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Time Traveller's Diary (novel)}})


Another account contradicted this. [[The Beast (The Impossible Planet)|The Beast]], who purportedly came from this time, stated his origins were from the time before N-Space "came into existence" and before "the cataclysm". The Tenth Doctor disbelieved this, saying, "No life could have existed back then." ([[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit (TV story)|The Satan Pit]]'')
== Nothingness ==
{{Main|Time Zero}}
[[Kin (Nothing O'Clock)|The Kin]] remembered that the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of [[space]] and [[time]] smaller than an [[atom]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Nothing O'Clock (short story)}})


[[River Song]] noted a theory for the [[SporeShip]]s' origin, that they were leftover weapons from the war that wiped out the previous universe. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Signs (audio story)|Signs]]'')
The [[Second Doctor]] managed to trick the [[Vist]] into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of [[time]] before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before [[Event One]] and could never escape there. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|The Forbidden Time (audio story)}}) [[Sabbath Dei|Sabbath]] referred to this period of "no time" as [[Time Zero]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Time Zero (novel)}})


== Characteristics ==
When facing the Beast, the [[Tenth Doctor]] insisted that no life could have existed before [[N-Space|the universe]] came into existence. The Beast mocked this belief for being baseless and emotionally-driven, more akin to [[religion]] than scientific certainty. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Satan Pit (TV story)}})
The physics of this pre-Rassilon universe were different from the post-Rassilon universe. [[Magic]] was a powerful force here, and science did not exist. Before the Web of Time the universe was never rationalised, and thus, science never worked, and magic always did. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'')


The Doctor described the pre-universe to [[Anne Travers]].
[[The Dark (Fear of the Dark)|The Dark]] was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the [[Big Bang]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Fear of the Dark (novel)}})
{{quote|Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.|Sixth Doctor|Millennial Rites}}  


Because of new laws like the [[speed of light]] or the charge of the [[electron]], the Great Old Ones found they had great power and became terrible gods. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire (novel)|All-Consuming Fire]]'') The [[Shepherd and Shepherdess]] escaped the "extinction of their universe" (presumably the destruction of the everything illogical that occurred when time was mapped by Rassilon) and arrived in N-space where their appearance became transparent. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[Persuasion (audio story)|Persuasion]]'')
== Life and existence before the Big Bang ==
=== Ancestor-universes ===
{{Main|Ancestor-universe}}
According to one guide, there was a long lineage of universes before the [[Spiral Politic]], known as [[ancestor-universe]]s. They were so named because the creatures within them often spawned new universes (for this is how universes are made) called [[descendant-universe]]s. It was difficult to make a new universe which differed too much from one's own universe, meaning that [[unigenetics]] could be traced through a lineage which had [[evolution]] over time. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (short story)}})


== Natives ==
The [[Kotturuh]] believed they had been spreading the existence of [[mortality]] in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the [[Dark Times]] and believed they would do so again in [[After-universe|subsequent universes]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)}})
Amongst the races that claimed to be older than the universe itself were the [[Great Old One]]s such as [[Azathoth]], [[Yog-Sothoth]] and [[Shub-Niggurath]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire (novel)|All-Consuming Fire]]'', ''[[Millennial Rites]]'') On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. The Great Old Ones were worshipped by the first intelligent species to evolve on Earth - the [[Silurian]]s. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire (novel)|All-Consuming Fire]]'') It is unclear whether the Great Old Ones were a single species, or merely a term to describe any unimaginably powerful being that had escaped the pre-universe into ours.


[[The Beast (The Impossible Planet)|The Beast]] claimed to have originated before the universe. He said was imprisoned by the [[Disciples of the Light]] deep beneath [[Krop Tor]] "before time... before time and light and space and matter, before the cataclysm, before this universe came into existence", likely placing both in that time. The Tenth Doctor believed that "no life could have existed back then." The Doctor wondered if the idea for all [[Satan]]-like figures in the mythology of "a million worlds", including that of [[Earth]], [[Draconia]], [[Vel Consadine]], [[Dæmos]], and the [[Kaled]]s' God of War, had maybe bled through as a thought in the back of "every sentient mind". The Beast himself claimed to be the Devil of "all" religions, which included the [[Arkiphets]], [[Quoldonity]], [[Christianity]], [[Pash Pash]], [[New Judaism]], [[San Klah]] and the [[Church of the Tin Vagabond]]. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit]]'')
According to the speculations of ''[[The Record of Rassilon]]'', the [[Gods of Ragnarok]] came from a [[Gods of Ragnarok's universe|prior universe]] that they destroyed. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Divided Loyalties (novel)}}) The [[Time Lord]]s had records of [[Great Old Ones' universe|the universe before theirs]] in [[the Matrix]], which the [[Sixth Doctor]] accessed in [[the Matrix]] during his time as [[Lord President]]. He later described it to [[Anne Travers]]:


The [[Ancient Lights]] were speculated by [[Luke Smith]] to have come from the pre-universe. ([[TV]]: ''[[Secrets of the Stars]]'')
{{quote|Before this universe was created, there was [[Great Old Ones' universe|another one]]. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.|Sixth Doctor|Millennial Rites (novel)}}


[[Syriath]], an entity who could raise the dead, was said by Jack Harkness to have been trapped within the Rift since before time. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The House of the Dead (audio story)|The House of the Dead]]'')
The belief this drove at was that the [[Great Old One]]s, powerful beings who often seemed unbound by the laws of physics and whom the Doctor faced many times, were actually surviving members of the race which had been equivalent to the Time Lords in this previous universe. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}}) The Gods of Ragnarok destroyed the universe of the Great Old Ones, ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Divided Loyalties (novel)}}) with [[River Song]] further saying that [[Previous universe war|a war]] wiped out the prior universe. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|Signs (audio story)}}) The Great Old Ones, however, escaped into the new universe to survive. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}})


[[The Dark (Fear of the Dark)|The Dark]] was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the [[Big Bang]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Fear of the Dark]]'')
One account held that the modern Time Lords' thoughts on what they believed was "the universe before the universe" was something stranger, however; according to this telling of events, through his encounter with the [[Carnival Queen]], the [[Seventh Doctor]] realised that the supposed "universe before the universe" was better described as being the "[[time before this]]", the state of reality in the [[Dark Times]] before early Time Lords managed to [[Anchoring of the thread|bind the structure of history]] and impose [[Reason|Rationality]] upon the universe, creating the very scientific chronology which included the Big Bang as the beginning of existence. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)}})


[[Entropy Siren]]s were said to have existed before the universe. ([[AUDIO]]: ''[[The Entropy Composition (audio story)|The Entropy Composition]]'')
[[Entropy Siren]]s were said to have existed before the universe. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|The Entropy Composition (audio story)}})
 
=== Surviving the Big Bang ===
[[The Beast (The Impossible Planet)|The Beast]] was trapped under [[Krop Tor]] by the [[Disciples of the Light]] before "light, time, space, or matter" existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Impossible Planet (TV story)}}) He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the [[Arkiphets]], [[Quoldonity]], [[Christianity]], [[Pash Pash]], [[New Judaism]], [[San Klah]], and the [[Church of the Tin Vagabond]]. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Satan Pit (TV story)}})
 
The entity called the [[Solitract]] existed in the primordial period where the constituting parts of the universe were swirling together and had not yet come together to actually form the universe. The Solitract was "banished" to the [[Solitract plane]] by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. [[Anti-zone (It Takes You Away)|Anti-zones]] formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. ([[TV]]: {{cs|It Takes You Away (TV story)}})
 
When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the [[Great Old One]]s, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them [[god]]-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|All-Consuming Fire (novel)}}, {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}})
 
The [[Shepherd and Shepherdess]] escaped the extinction of [[Shepherd and Shepherdess' universe|their universe]] and arrived in [[N-Space]], where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|Persuasion (audio story)}})
 
[[Luke Smith]] speculated that the [[Ancient Lights]] originated from before the universe. While under their influence, [[Martin Trueman]] confirmed that the Lights had survived the Big Bang. ([[TV]]: {{cs|Secrets of the Stars (TV story)}})


== Knowledge ==
Knowledge of this universe was a closely guarded secret.{{fact}} The [[Sixth Doctor]] only knew about it as a result of his connection to [[the Matrix]] during his time as [[Lord President]]. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Millennial Rites]]'', [[TV]]: ''[[The Invasion of Time]]'') During an encounter with the [[Carnival Queen]] the [[Seventh Doctor]] learned that the Time Lords had misinterpreted their knowledge of the pre-universe. ([[PROSE]]: ''[[Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)|Christmas on a Rational Planet]]'') When [[the Beast (The Impossible Planet)|the Beast]] claimed to have existed before the universe, the [[Tenth Doctor]] had trouble accepting the claim, as he knew the pre-universe was not a different universe. ([[TV]]: ''[[The Satan Pit (TV story)|The Satan Pit]]'')
[[Category:Universes and dimensions]]
[[Category:Universes and dimensions]]
[[Category:History]]
[[Category:History]]
[[Category:Universe]]
[[Category:Universe]]

Latest revision as of 21:27, 12 November 2024

"Pre-universe" is a title based upon conjecture.

Check the behind the scenes section, the revision history and discussion page for additional comments on this article's title.

You may be looking for the Dark Times or the time before this.

Before the Big Bang of the Doctor's universe, there was the "pre-universe". Various accounts give different perspectives of this state of (non-)existence.

A guide for time travellers advised against travel to a time before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Time Traveller's Diary [+]Loading...["Time Traveller's Diary (novel)"])

Nothingness[[edit] | [edit source]]

Main article: Time Zero

The Kin remembered that the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of space and time smaller than an atom. (PROSE: Nothing O'Clock [+]Loading...["Nothing O'Clock (short story)"])

The Second Doctor managed to trick the Vist into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of time before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before Event One and could never escape there. (AUDIO: The Forbidden Time [+]Loading...["The Forbidden Time (audio story)"]) Sabbath referred to this period of "no time" as Time Zero. (PROSE: Time Zero [+]Loading...["Time Zero (novel)"])

When facing the Beast, the Tenth Doctor insisted that no life could have existed before the universe came into existence. The Beast mocked this belief for being baseless and emotionally-driven, more akin to religion than scientific certainty. (TV: The Satan Pit [+]Loading...["The Satan Pit (TV story)"])

The Dark was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Fear of the Dark [+]Loading...["Fear of the Dark (novel)"])

Life and existence before the Big Bang[[edit] | [edit source]]

Ancestor-universes[[edit] | [edit source]]

Main article: Ancestor-universe

According to one guide, there was a long lineage of universes before the Spiral Politic, known as ancestor-universes. They were so named because the creatures within them often spawned new universes (for this is how universes are made) called descendant-universes. It was difficult to make a new universe which differed too much from one's own universe, meaning that unigenetics could be traced through a lineage which had evolution over time. (PROSE: The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic [+]Loading...["The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (short story)"])

The Kotturuh believed they had been spreading the existence of mortality in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the Dark Times and believed they would do so again in subsequent universes. (PROSE: The Dawn of the Kotturuh [+]Loading...["The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)"])

According to the speculations of The Record of Rassilon, the Gods of Ragnarok came from a prior universe that they destroyed. (PROSE: Divided Loyalties [+]Loading...["Divided Loyalties (novel)"]) The Time Lords had records of the universe before theirs in the Matrix, which the Sixth Doctor accessed in the Matrix during his time as Lord President. He later described it to Anne Travers:

Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.Sixth Doctor [Millennial Rites (novel) [src]]

The belief this drove at was that the Great Old Ones, powerful beings who often seemed unbound by the laws of physics and whom the Doctor faced many times, were actually surviving members of the race which had been equivalent to the Time Lords in this previous universe. (PROSE: Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"]) The Gods of Ragnarok destroyed the universe of the Great Old Ones, (PROSE: Divided Loyalties [+]Loading...["Divided Loyalties (novel)"]) with River Song further saying that a war wiped out the prior universe. (AUDIO: Signs [+]Loading...["Signs (audio story)"]) The Great Old Ones, however, escaped into the new universe to survive. (PROSE: Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"])

One account held that the modern Time Lords' thoughts on what they believed was "the universe before the universe" was something stranger, however; according to this telling of events, through his encounter with the Carnival Queen, the Seventh Doctor realised that the supposed "universe before the universe" was better described as being the "time before this", the state of reality in the Dark Times before early Time Lords managed to bind the structure of history and impose Rationality upon the universe, creating the very scientific chronology which included the Big Bang as the beginning of existence. (PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet [+]Loading...["Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)"])

Entropy Sirens were said to have existed before the universe. (AUDIO: The Entropy Composition [+]Loading...["The Entropy Composition (audio story)"])

Surviving the Big Bang[[edit] | [edit source]]

The Beast was trapped under Krop Tor by the Disciples of the Light before "light, time, space, or matter" existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. (TV: The Impossible Planet [+]Loading...["The Impossible Planet (TV story)"]) He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the Arkiphets, Quoldonity, Christianity, Pash Pash, New Judaism, San Klah, and the Church of the Tin Vagabond. (TV: The Satan Pit [+]Loading...["The Satan Pit (TV story)"])

The entity called the Solitract existed in the primordial period where the constituting parts of the universe were swirling together and had not yet come together to actually form the universe. The Solitract was "banished" to the Solitract plane by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. Anti-zones formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. (TV: It Takes You Away [+]Loading...["It Takes You Away (TV story)"])

When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the Great Old Ones, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them god-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire [+]Loading...["All-Consuming Fire (novel)"], Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"])

The Shepherd and Shepherdess escaped the extinction of their universe and arrived in N-Space, where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. (AUDIO: Persuasion [+]Loading...["Persuasion (audio story)"])

Luke Smith speculated that the Ancient Lights originated from before the universe. While under their influence, Martin Trueman confirmed that the Lights had survived the Big Bang. (TV: Secrets of the Stars [+]Loading...["Secrets of the Stars (TV story)"])

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