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The '''Pre-Universe''' was the [[Universe]], or perhaps many Universes, which came before this one.  After the destruction of the Pre-Universe, some [[:Category:Pre-Universe species|species]] found their way into this Universe, and some (such as the [[Great Old One]]s, and [[The Beast]]) had [[god]]-like powers.  Thus, some of the most powerful beings in existence came from before the Universe itself was created, making them older even than the Time Lords. ([[NA]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire]]'', [[MA]]: ''[[Millennial Rites]]'')  Some beings, such as The Beast, claimed to come from before time itself, which may indicate a time before any Universes at all yet existed. 
{{conjecture}}
{{you may|Dark Times|n1=the Dark Times|time before this|n2=the time before this}}
Before the [[Big Bang]] of [[the Doctor's universe]], there was the "'''pre-universe'''". Various accounts give different perspectives of this state of (non-)existence.  


==History==
A guide for [[time travel]]lers advised against travel to a time before the Big Bang. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Time Traveller's Diary (novel)}})
Some said that the Pre-Universe had a green void, stars shaped like doughnuts and physical laws closer to what might be understood as [[magic]]. ([[MA]]: ''[[Millennial Rites]]'')


Knowledge of this universe was a closely guarded secret, and was only in the Doctor's possession as a result of his connection to [[the Matrix]] during his time as [[Lord President]]. ([[MA]]: ''[[Millennial Rites]]'', [[DW]]: ''[[The Invasion of Time]]'') Even then, the knowledge would ultimately prove temporary; In his [[Sixth Doctor|Sixth]] and [[Seventh Doctor|seventh]] life, the Doctor was fully conversant with the details and specifics of this universe ([[NA]]: ''[[All-Consuming Fire]]'', [[PDA]]: ''[[Synthespians™]]''), whereas by his [[Tenth Doctor|tenth]] it would almost be an article of religious faith to him that such a universe could not have existed. ([[DW]]: ''[[The Impossible Planet]]'')
== Nothingness ==
{{Main|Time Zero}}
[[Kin (Nothing O'Clock)|The Kin]] remembered that the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of [[space]] and [[time]] smaller than an [[atom]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Nothing O'Clock (short story)}})


Any being able to survive the end of a Universe itself, must be unimaginably powerful, knolwedgable, or both, and thus, beings that claimed to originate from before the current Universe were amongst the most dangerous in existence. Indeed, out of the few beings more powerful than the Time Lords, many claimed to be from before the Universe, or before Time.
The [[Second Doctor]] managed to trick the [[Vist]] into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of [[time]] before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before [[Event One]] and could never escape there. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|The Forbidden Time (audio story)}}) [[Sabbath Dei|Sabbath]] referred to this period of "no time" as [[Time Zero]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Time Zero (novel)}})


==Species==
When facing the Beast, the [[Tenth Doctor]] insisted that no life could have existed before [[N-Space|the universe]] came into existence. The Beast mocked this belief for being baseless and emotionally-driven, more akin to [[religion]] than scientific certainty. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Satan Pit (TV story)}})
Amongst the races that claimed to be older than the universe itself, were the [[Great Old One]]s such as [[Azathoth]], [[Yog-Sothoth]] and [[Shub-Niggurath]].  On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions.  The Great Old Ones were worshipped by the first intelligent species to evolve on Earth - the [[Silurian]]s. It is unclear whether the Great Old Ones were a single species, or merely a term to describe any unimaginably powerful being that was able to escape the Pre-Universe into ours.  If the latter is true, then [[the Beast]] may be an Old One too, and not all Old Ones are necessarily equal in age or power. 


The Beast claimed to have originated before the universe, and to have been imprisoned by the [[Disciples of the Light]], likely placing both in the Pre-Universe. ([[DW]]: ''[[The Impossible Planet]]'' / ''[[The Satan Pit]]'') The Beast was also said to have been the inspiration for all [[Satan]]-like figures in the mythology of countless alien races, including the Demons of [[Human]] mythology, the ancient [[Kaled]] God of War and the [[Draconian]] God of Evil.
[[The Dark (Fear of the Dark)|The Dark]] was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the [[Big Bang]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Fear of the Dark (novel)}})


:''Though in point of fact the Beast claimed to have been imprisoned "Before Time," and debatably the Pre-Universe could still be a part of ''"time"''. He could mean before the time of the current universe.''
== Life and existence before the Big Bang ==
=== Ancestor-universes ===
{{Main|Ancestor-universe}}
According to one guide, there was a long lineage of universes before the [[Spiral Politic]], known as [[ancestor-universe]]s. They were so named because the creatures within them often spawned new universes (for this is how universes are made) called [[descendant-universe]]s. It was difficult to make a new universe which differed too much from one's own universe, meaning that [[unigenetics]] could be traced through a lineage which had [[evolution]] over time. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (short story)}})


[[Abaddon]], being the son of the Beast, probably also came from this period and was imprisoned around this time. ([[TW]]: ''[[End of Days]]'')  The Beast listed both Abaddon and The Destroyer as alternate names - it is unclear whether [[The Destroyer]] was related to them in some way.
The [[Kotturuh]] believed they had been spreading the existence of [[mortality]] in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the [[Dark Times]] and believed they would do so again in [[After-universe|subsequent universes]]. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)}})


The [[Ancient Lights]] were speculated by [[Luke Smith]] to have come from the Pre-Universe. ([[SJA]]: ''[[Secrets of the Stars]]'')
According to the speculations of ''[[The Record of Rassilon]]'', the [[Gods of Ragnarok]] came from a [[Gods of Ragnarok's universe|prior universe]] that they destroyed. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Divided Loyalties (novel)}}) The [[Time Lord]]s had records of [[Great Old Ones' universe|the universe before theirs]] in [[the Matrix]], which the [[Sixth Doctor]] accessed in [[the Matrix]] during his time as [[Lord President]]. He later described it to [[Anne Travers]]:


==See also==
{{quote|Before this universe was created, there was [[Great Old Ones' universe|another one]]. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.|Sixth Doctor|Millennial Rites (novel)}}
*[[Great Old One]]s
 
*[[The Beast]]
The belief this drove at was that the [[Great Old One]]s, powerful beings who often seemed unbound by the laws of physics and whom the Doctor faced many times, were actually surviving members of the race which had been equivalent to the Time Lords in this previous universe. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}}) The Gods of Ragnarok destroyed the universe of the Great Old Ones, ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Divided Loyalties (novel)}}) with [[River Song]] further saying that [[Previous universe war|a war]] wiped out the prior universe. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|Signs (audio story)}}) The Great Old Ones, however, escaped into the new universe to survive. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}})
[[Category:Other realities]]
 
One account held that the modern Time Lords' thoughts on what they believed was "the universe before the universe" was something stranger, however; according to this telling of events, through his encounter with the [[Carnival Queen]], the [[Seventh Doctor]] realised that the supposed "universe before the universe" was better described as being the "[[time before this]]", the state of reality in the [[Dark Times]] before early Time Lords managed to [[Anchoring of the thread|bind the structure of history]] and impose [[Reason|Rationality]] upon the universe, creating the very scientific chronology which included the Big Bang as the beginning of existence. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)}})
 
[[Entropy Siren]]s were said to have existed before the universe. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|The Entropy Composition (audio story)}})
 
=== Surviving the Big Bang ===
[[The Beast (The Impossible Planet)|The Beast]] was trapped under [[Krop Tor]] by the [[Disciples of the Light]] before "light, time, space, or matter" existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Impossible Planet (TV story)}}) He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the [[Arkiphets]], [[Quoldonity]], [[Christianity]], [[Pash Pash]], [[New Judaism]], [[San Klah]], and the [[Church of the Tin Vagabond]]. ([[TV]]: {{cs|The Satan Pit (TV story)}})
 
The entity called the [[Solitract]] existed in the primordial period where the constituting parts of the universe were swirling together and had not yet come together to actually form the universe. The Solitract was "banished" to the [[Solitract plane]] by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. [[Anti-zone (It Takes You Away)|Anti-zones]] formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. ([[TV]]: {{cs|It Takes You Away (TV story)}})
 
When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the [[Great Old One]]s, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them [[god]]-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. ([[PROSE]]: {{cs|All-Consuming Fire (novel)}}, {{cs|Millennial Rites (novel)}})
 
The [[Shepherd and Shepherdess]] escaped the extinction of [[Shepherd and Shepherdess' universe|their universe]] and arrived in [[N-Space]], where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. ([[AUDIO]]: {{cs|Persuasion (audio story)}})
 
[[Luke Smith]] speculated that the [[Ancient Lights]] originated from before the universe. While under their influence, [[Martin Trueman]] confirmed that the Lights had survived the Big Bang. ([[TV]]: {{cs|Secrets of the Stars (TV story)}})
 
[[Category:Universes and dimensions]]
[[Category:History]]
[[Category:History]]
[[Category:Universe]]

Latest revision as of 21:27, 12 November 2024

"Pre-universe" is a title based upon conjecture.

Check the behind the scenes section, the revision history and discussion page for additional comments on this article's title.

You may be looking for the Dark Times or the time before this.

Before the Big Bang of the Doctor's universe, there was the "pre-universe". Various accounts give different perspectives of this state of (non-)existence.

A guide for time travellers advised against travel to a time before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Time Traveller's Diary [+]Loading...["Time Traveller's Diary (novel)"])

Nothingness[[edit] | [edit source]]

Main article: Time Zero

The Kin remembered that the only thing that existed before the Big Bang created the universe was a particle of space and time smaller than an atom. (PROSE: Nothing O'Clock [+]Loading...["Nothing O'Clock (short story)"])

The Second Doctor managed to trick the Vist into travelling back before the Time Lords evolved so that they could claim ownership of time before them. They became stuck in the "no time" that existed before Event One and could never escape there. (AUDIO: The Forbidden Time [+]Loading...["The Forbidden Time (audio story)"]) Sabbath referred to this period of "no time" as Time Zero. (PROSE: Time Zero [+]Loading...["Time Zero (novel)"])

When facing the Beast, the Tenth Doctor insisted that no life could have existed before the universe came into existence. The Beast mocked this belief for being baseless and emotionally-driven, more akin to religion than scientific certainty. (TV: The Satan Pit [+]Loading...["The Satan Pit (TV story)"])

The Dark was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Fear of the Dark [+]Loading...["Fear of the Dark (novel)"])

Life and existence before the Big Bang[[edit] | [edit source]]

Ancestor-universes[[edit] | [edit source]]

Main article: Ancestor-universe

According to one guide, there was a long lineage of universes before the Spiral Politic, known as ancestor-universes. They were so named because the creatures within them often spawned new universes (for this is how universes are made) called descendant-universes. It was difficult to make a new universe which differed too much from one's own universe, meaning that unigenetics could be traced through a lineage which had evolution over time. (PROSE: The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic [+]Loading...["The Cosmology of the Spiral Politic (short story)"])

The Kotturuh believed they had been spreading the existence of mortality in the prior universes. They did the same in the universe during the Dark Times and believed they would do so again in subsequent universes. (PROSE: The Dawn of the Kotturuh [+]Loading...["The Dawn of the Kotturuh (short story)"])

According to the speculations of The Record of Rassilon, the Gods of Ragnarok came from a prior universe that they destroyed. (PROSE: Divided Loyalties [+]Loading...["Divided Loyalties (novel)"]) The Time Lords had records of the universe before theirs in the Matrix, which the Sixth Doctor accessed in the Matrix during his time as Lord President. He later described it to Anne Travers:

Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.Sixth Doctor [Millennial Rites (novel) [src]]

The belief this drove at was that the Great Old Ones, powerful beings who often seemed unbound by the laws of physics and whom the Doctor faced many times, were actually surviving members of the race which had been equivalent to the Time Lords in this previous universe. (PROSE: Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"]) The Gods of Ragnarok destroyed the universe of the Great Old Ones, (PROSE: Divided Loyalties [+]Loading...["Divided Loyalties (novel)"]) with River Song further saying that a war wiped out the prior universe. (AUDIO: Signs [+]Loading...["Signs (audio story)"]) The Great Old Ones, however, escaped into the new universe to survive. (PROSE: Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"])

One account held that the modern Time Lords' thoughts on what they believed was "the universe before the universe" was something stranger, however; according to this telling of events, through his encounter with the Carnival Queen, the Seventh Doctor realised that the supposed "universe before the universe" was better described as being the "time before this", the state of reality in the Dark Times before early Time Lords managed to bind the structure of history and impose Rationality upon the universe, creating the very scientific chronology which included the Big Bang as the beginning of existence. (PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet [+]Loading...["Christmas on a Rational Planet (novel)"])

Entropy Sirens were said to have existed before the universe. (AUDIO: The Entropy Composition [+]Loading...["The Entropy Composition (audio story)"])

Surviving the Big Bang[[edit] | [edit source]]

The Beast was trapped under Krop Tor by the Disciples of the Light before "light, time, space, or matter" existed, and he remained there during and after the creation of the universe. (TV: The Impossible Planet [+]Loading...["The Impossible Planet (TV story)"]) He claimed to have inspired the Devil of all religions, including the Arkiphets, Quoldonity, Christianity, Pash Pash, New Judaism, San Klah, and the Church of the Tin Vagabond. (TV: The Satan Pit [+]Loading...["The Satan Pit (TV story)"])

The entity called the Solitract existed in the primordial period where the constituting parts of the universe were swirling together and had not yet come together to actually form the universe. The Solitract was "banished" to the Solitract plane by the physical laws of the universe due to its incompatible energy constitution. Anti-zones formed when the Solitract made contact with the universe. (TV: It Takes You Away [+]Loading...["It Takes You Away (TV story)"])

When the new universe was created, many powerful species from the pre-universe fled into other realities but over time found their way back. Some, like the Great Old Ones, still followed the rules of the pre-universe, giving them god-like powers. On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire [+]Loading...["All-Consuming Fire (novel)"], Millennial Rites [+]Loading...["Millennial Rites (novel)"])

The Shepherd and Shepherdess escaped the extinction of their universe and arrived in N-Space, where they became transparent in appearance. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. (AUDIO: Persuasion [+]Loading...["Persuasion (audio story)"])

Luke Smith speculated that the Ancient Lights originated from before the universe. While under their influence, Martin Trueman confirmed that the Lights had survived the Big Bang. (TV: Secrets of the Stars [+]Loading...["Secrets of the Stars (TV story)"])

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