|
|
| (23 intermediate revisions by 11 users not shown) |
| Line 1: |
Line 1: |
| | {{subpage tabs}} |
| | |
| {{ArchCat}} | | {{ArchCat}} |
|
| |
|
| == Why is this talk so inactive == | | == Separate articles for splinters == |
| | |
| Why?{{Unsigned|Orangerichard56}}
| |
| | |
| :Two reasons:
| |
| :* First of all, when a talk page gets too long, its contents get archived. The previous conversations for this page have been archived to a page that you can reach by clicking the "archive" button at the top of this page. Keep in mind that there should be no posts added to a page once it has been archived. If you want to start a new post, or add to an existing one, you start a new one on this page. You can read more about archives at [[Tardis:Archiving policy]].
| |
| :* Second, on this wiki, talk pages are for discussing the editing of an article, not for general conversation about the topic. So at the moment, no one has any issues with the editing of the page. You can read more about talk pages at [[Tardis:Discussion policy]].
| |
| :Thanks! [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:46, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Clara is NOT part of Testimony ==
| |
| I tried editing the wrong entry into the wiki, which was promptly undone again. It is a common misconception that Clara is part of Testimony, but it is incorrect, and here is why:
| |
| | |
| 1. The Doctor says that Clara is "in my head", which is true for a hallucination, and is definitely wrong for a Testimony avatar.
| |
| | |
| 2. Bill does NOT transform into Clara, she is standing in a very different place. Bill is standing to the right of the Doctor, Clara in front of the Doctor. And as Nardole proves, it is not customary for Testimony to change one avatar into another to represent two people. Instead, they would just summon another avatar. If Clara had been a Testimony avatar, she would have stayed until the end, just like Testimony Bill and Nardole did. Instead, because Clara appears as a hallucination, she disappears the moment Bill distracts the Doctor. Also, if Testimony Bill had transformed into Testimony Clara, the episode would have shown the standard transition that happens every time a Testimony avatar changes shape. Every time a Testimony avatar changes appearance in Twice Upon a Time, we see this animation. There is no such transition when Clara appears, and also not when she disappears.
| |
| | |
| 3. Clara can't be part of Testimony, because she was already extracted from her final moment before death. It can't be done again.
| |
| | |
| If you disagree, let us discuss this here, rather than constantly undoing each other's versions on the actual page.
| |
| | |
| [[User:Bowsmountainer|Bowsmountainer]] [[User talk:Bowsmountainer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:06, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
| |
| :I'm sorry to say you have quite misunderstood the scene, although I appreciate your coming onto this talk page to discuss it. "You're in my head" is clearly part of the set of lines as "You're back… You're in my head… All my memories". What the Doctor is saying is that Clara is once more present in his mind. Not that the Clara he's talking to right now is "just in his head".
| |
| | |
| :Beyond that, yes, the scene is shot weirdly, but that's just because they filmed [[Jenna Coleman]] on a greenscreen away from all the other actors, and so ''couldn't'' get her in the same angle as Bill to show the transition effect. The [[Twice Upon a Time (novelisation)|''Twice Upon a Time'' novelisation]] makes it clear that Clara is very much a part of Testimony now, and suggests that she eventually managed to ''escape'' her original death with the Raven, instead dying later in completely different circumstances from which the Testimony extracted her. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:11, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ::So, just answer me this question: is there any piece of evidence at all in the episode itself (not the novelisation), that suggests Clara is a Testimony avatar? There isn't. There is no animation to show she is part of Testimony. There is no mention of her in assocation with Testimony. And now, here is another question: is there any evidence that Clara is a hallucination? Yes, there is plenty of evidence to show that, as I have explained above. I think you are ignoring the line "You're in my head". If he was just referring to his memories being back, he would have something like "All my memories are back in my head". But no, he directly speaks to Clara, and tells her that she is in his head. Because she is a hallucination in his head.
| |
| | |
| ::Yes, part of the reason why the scene is shot weirdly is because Jenna Coleman wasn't available. But I don't see the relevance here. What matters is the final product, not the initial. Yes, the real world affects what happens in the episode. Eccleston didn't want to return at the time, and therefore wasn't included in Day of the Doctor. What matters is that he didn't want to appear, and therefore didn't appear in the 50th. We're not going to pretend that he did appear in the 50th, are we? The same is true here. Perhaps Clara was initially intended to appear as a Testimony avatar. But Coleman couldn't, and so instead appeared as a hallucination.
| |
| | |
| ::And this doesn't answer why there is no animation of Bill turning to Clara or Clara to Bill. The fact that Jenna Coleman's scene was shot later is no excuse there; there were still many months between when that scene was shot and Christmas. There is no excuse for not including that transition if Clara did appear as an avatar. Of course, there is a different explanation for why there was no such animation.
| |
| | |
| ::So, let us summarize the evidence for and against Clara being an avatar vs. Clara being a hallucination. Evidence for Clara being an avatar: none. Novelisations differ from the TV show, and what we are discussing here is the TV show. So what is said in the novelisation is of no relevance here. Evidence against Clara being an avatar: There is no animation from Bill to Clara, or from Clara to Bill. This animation was present for every change in appearance of a Testimony avatar. There is no reason for Bill to change into Clara, Testimony would just summon a new avatar. Clara doesn't stay until the end, which a Testimony-Clara would do. There is no explanation for how it is even possible for Clara to be part of Testimony, since she was already extracted from the end of her timeline. Clara and Bill stand in different locations.
| |
| | |
| ::Evidence for Clara being a hallucination: The Doctor says that she is in his head. Her hair blows in a wind that doesn't exist. The lighting is not quite right. Yes, there are real-world reasons for this, but it is the final product that matters, and in the final product she does look like a hallucination, and not like a Testimony avatar. The Doctor has had billions upon billions of hallucinations of Clara, so him hallucinating Clara again is not unusual for him at all. The hallucination disappears the moment Bill speaks again, distracting him. That's the kind of thing hallucinations do, but not what glass avatars do. Evidence against Clara being a hallucination: you have a different interpretation of what the Twelfth Doctor meant by saying "You're in my head". The Twelfth Doctor is know for his directness, saying exactly what is going on, rather than being metaphorical about it.
| |
| | |
| ::Unless you are able to provide some counterpoints to the above, and more than just referring to behind the scenes reasons for ignoring what happened in the final product, and saying you have a different interpretation of it, I think you are just going to have to accept that the evidence shows that Clara did appear as a hallucination, not as an avatar. [[User:Bowsmountainer|Bowsmountainer]] [[User talk:Bowsmountainer|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 22:26, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Time Lord? ==
| |
| | |
| Clara was on galifrey as an echo at one point but isnt it that all claras get brain pattern and genetic pattern meaning she must be human or idk ther is no information to explain either way she could of not been born ther and just appeared for that moment [[Special:Contributions/79.68.241.70|79.68.241.70]]<sup>[[User talk:79.68.241.70#top|talk to me]]</sup> 19:02, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| The way I understand it is that after jumping into the Doctors timeline, her personality and likeness where really all that was the same between the different versions of Clara. When she sees the Doctor steal the TARDIS, it is likely that incarnation of Clara was either an average Gallifreyan, or Time Lady. [[Special:Contributions/71.60.37.160|71.60.37.160]]<sup>[[User talk:71.60.37.160#top|talk to me]]</sup> 07:04, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| That is my understanding as well, supported by the evidence that Oswin Oswald and Clara from Snowmen are both physical beings. The scattering creates many copies with the same likeness, similar name, similar personality, and an inbuilt instinct to trust and help the Doctor. Therefore that version of Clara is, biologically, Gallifreyan. Whether she has graduated from the Academy and is a Time Lord, is a question that cannot be answered, as there is not enough information given. [[Special:Contributions/76.115.85.249|76.115.85.249]]<sup>[[User talk:76.115.85.249#top|talk to me]]</sup> 04:26, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| Wanna know what that means? It means there is (or might be) also an [[Alzarian]]!Clara, [[Trakenite]]!Clara, [[Trion]]-ese!Clara, and other Clara Echos in all humanoid species on most planets. (Of course since Clara Prime was an human- specifically the 2015's human Clara, all the non-human human-looking species have only one Echo Clara each.) Maybe the Doctor has already travelled with Echo Claras or relatives of Echo Claras, but he does not know it. As in one flashback scene Clara replaced [[Leela of the Sevateem]], Leela herself might actually be just Seevateem!Clara, just with a fake-tan, auburn dye, and going by an "honorary" nickname she may have gained after doing something in a rite-of-passage. Or as the human Clara Echos all happen to have the Oswald last name, maybe it's actually Clara "Leela" Oswald and her father David "Sole" Oswald, but they do not know they have a surname + are always going by honorary names. Or maybe if Leela is Clara it does not mean Sole is Dave, as even if Clara's biological father has to be same or similiar in all echos, some (or all) of the Claras might have been raised by a "father" that was not biological. (Plus, not only Sole looked a bit too old to see it perfectly, but faces can get longer with time. He's the one with white hair in the page image, right? He could as easily TOO just have a fake-tan and bleached, longer hair and beard, possibly just because of their different lifestyles, or because dying your hair and wearing fake tans is a Sevateem!Oswald's thing. And for Leela not caring for children as much as Clara does, maybe Sevateem women just do not care for children, or just most child Sevateem are always off doing something like studying stuff or catching preys. Any differences in facial features or build are either to: 1) Sevateems having a rougher lifestyle and different techs than your regular 2015's human, 2) Being played by Louise Jameson and not by Jenna Louise Coleman due to the latter not being born yet, 3) The appearances of various characters might be semi-simbolic and not actually what the character looks exactly like, think like how Kingdom Hearts fangirls often change Organization XIII's personality, and also change their eye colors\heights\face\skin colors to match their fanon personalities better. --[[User:Kaylabaraonda|Kaylabaraonda]] [[User talk:Kaylabaraonda|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| ::This is speculation, and as such only belongs on [[Howling:The Howling]]. Per [[Tardis:Discussion policy]], talk pages are for discussing the '''editing''' of articles, not for discussing subjects that can only be answered with speculation. Thanks. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 13:43, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| So apart from the idea that there may in fact be a Clara on every planet the Doctor's visited, meaning a Clara for every (humanoid) species, we know for sure that there is a human Clara and dalek Clara, but we also know there's a gallifreyan Clara, so why can't we put "Gallifreyan" in the species box to join "Human,Dalek"? Just because we saw her as a Dalek longer than we saw her as a Galliffreyan doesn't mean we can't ignore her being a Gallifreyan. Otherwise, just keep her species only Human.
| |
| The problem is the "born and died, lived a million lives" line. If Clara entered the timestream and was split apart or just kept traveling and was a single person the whole time, then she would be Human. If she were born on a planet save the Doctor, then that echo becomes that species.
| |
| If the second theory is correct, then Clara was born on Gallifrey and was a Gallifreyan. If the first theory is correct, then she was always only Human, in which case she was converted into a Dalek. So which is it? [[User:Steed|Steed]] [[User talk:Steed|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:31, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| :Most of her clips have her appearing in a place, but then Victorian Clara Oswin Oswald, for instance, is shown growing up: as an infant, as a child, and eventually as an adult. It's difficult to tell if that's meant to imply that she spontaneously appears as an adult sometimes or if that was a creative choice on the part of the video editors. But we do know she didn't just appear as a fully fledged adult with pre-set memories in every case. We don't know if she was born literally or if "born" refers to the echoes popping into existence as we've never seen anyone pregnant or giving birth to an echo. Baby!COO could've appeared as an infant and been adopted into a family. We simply don't know because we only ever saw a woman holding her as an infant and then her growing up at that residence. For that matter, a human infant Clara could've appeared on Gallifrey and been adopted and raised there, making her a citizen of Gallifrey and in that sense, Gallifreyan, but still biologically human. Or she could be a visitor to the planet. Her clothes raise a question in my mind: can they be definitively pointed to as Gallifreyan? Other than anything her clothes or location might imply, there's nothing that proves that echo's species. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:20, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| Since we don't have any story evidence that Clara's a Time Lord, we '''do not put it on articles'''. In addition, if all we can do is theorize about her possible species, then '''the discussion here has to end''', per [[Tardis:Discussion policy]], and can be moved to [[Howling:The Howling]] if anyone would like to further speculate. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 03:30, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Memory ==
| |
| | |
| It wasn't really clear in ''The Day of the Doctor'' if Clara retained her memories of past incarnations after ''The Name of the Doctor''. {{unsigned| DraconisWombat13203}}
| |
| | |
| She probably had them wiped or only retained very small accounts
| |
| | |
| they have to be in some shape or form the same person since clara vaguely recalls saving the doctor but does not remember where so we must assume she retained very little [[User:NarnianAslan1|All Hail Aslan]] [[User talk:NarnianAslan1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:43, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Suggest ==
| |
| | |
| Suggest Moving of the other lives section to part of her history since they happend to her in her life [[User:Orangerichard56| Silence Fall ]] [[User talk:Orangerichard56|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:07, December 29, 2013 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Library Clara ==
| |
| | |
| How do we know the Echo-Clara that was seen in the Library was the same one that got made into a Dalek, Oswin Oswald? Am I forgetting something? Were they wearing the same clothes or what? --[[Special:Contributions/86.29.7.17|86.29.7.17]]<sup>[[User talk:86.29.7.17#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:07, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| | |
| Definatly positavely [[User:NarnianAslan1|All Hail Aslan]] [[User talk:NarnianAslan1|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 18:45, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Correction to name needed==
| |
| All references to "modern" Clara need to have the name "Oswin" removed as it is not her middle name as clearly stated in Bells of Saint John. So "Clara Oswin Oswald" was not born in 1989, but "Clara Oswald" was. If she has a middle name we've yet to learn it. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.70.124|68.146.70.124]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.70.124#top|talk to me]]</sup> 23:02, January 5, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Did Clara go to university? ==
| |
| | |
| I noticed this page says "Clara wanted to travel after university." The reference for this is listed as ''The Bells of Saint John'', however I'm quite sure this fact was never established on screen in any episode. Was this mentioned in a book or other type of media, and if so can we have the correct reference? --[[Special:Contributions/121.45.249.181|121.45.249.181]]<sup>[[User talk:121.45.249.181#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:29, January 19, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| How could she get a job as a teacher if she didn't go to university? Nicolas Keough, co-author of Element 23:12, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| :Per [[T:NO RW]], the ''Doctor Who'' universe isn't the same as the real world. We can't apply real world standards to events in the DWU.
| |
| :Also, please note that [[Tardis:Signature Policy]] requires that your signature link to your user page and your talk page. If your signature is customized, please fix it so it complies with this policy. Thanks. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:20, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| In "the Rings of Akhaten" an image of Clara dressed in Cap-and-Gown and tossing her cap is shown on a display in the Tardis. The image appears during the Doctor's "she is/she can't be/she's not possible" monolougue. When the image appears on the display the Doctor says "she is." This indicates that she is probably a university graduate.
| |
| | |
| == Clara and Twelve - a bit early? ==
| |
| | |
| Isn't it a bit early to be declaring [[Clara Oswald]] a Twelfth Doctor companion? Yes, she ''is'' present at his regeneration, but that does not ''necessarily'' mean she will end up travelling with him. And per [[T:SPOIL]] and [[T:OFF REL]], we can't really say such a thing until she ''see'' her travelling with him in months' time.
| |
| | |
| If you'd like to discuss {{tl|companions of the Twelfth Doctor}} specifically, please go to [[Template talk:Companions of the Twelfth Doctor]]. --[[user:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="SmallerOnTheOutside">SOTO</span>]] ([[User talk:SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="Give me a shout">☎</span>]]/[[Special:Contributions/SmallerOnTheOutside|<span title="My contribs">★</span>]]\[[Special:Contributions/SV7|<span title="What my bot's been up to" style="font-size:80%">'''♆'''</span>]]) 22:46, January 31, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| == Comment ==
| |
| There is some missing information here.{{Unsigned-anon|213.122.226.10}}
| |
| :There is probably missing information for all the pages on this wiki. You have to be more specific.
| |
| | |
| :Also, please read [[Tardis:Discussion policy]]. Most of your talk page edits have been removed for violating this policy. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:25, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| Where is Clara's comic stories in her History? Nicolas Keough, co-author of Element 21:47, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| :Nicolas, Shambala108 already warned you about your signature a month ago. Please add links to your User page and user talk page at [[Special:Preferences]]. {{User:Digifiend/SigReal|02:06, 9/9/2014}}
| |
| | |
| ==Comics/prose==
| |
| shouldn't Clara's page include her comic and novel adventures?{{Unsigned|PurpleSnitch6}}
| |
| | |
| :Yes. Please add them if you can.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 18:11, September 29, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ::If I had access to Clara's comic and novel adventures I'd gladly add them. Thing is, I thought they were already included before? Has someone been removing them? I notice that [[Gwen Cooper]]'s page is missing her comic and novel adventures and I could have sworn they were there before. Again, if I had access to those I'd add them too.
| |
| --[[User:Alan-WK|Confirm Nothing...Deny Everything]] [[User talk:Alan-WK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 17:20, May 11, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Clara's Abilities ==
| |
| Shouldn't the fact that Clara does tae kwon do be referenced as an ability in that section. It was mentioned in Robot of Sherwood although we have never seen her engaged in battle.--[[Special:Contributions/190.163.85.33|190.163.85.33]]<sup>[[User talk:190.163.85.33#top|talk to me]]</sup> 05:12, October 12, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| == Clara's Infobox ==
| |
| Shouldn't Clara's infobox be focused on just the original Clara Oswald, rather than also including all of her copies? Despite being copies of the original, both Oswin Oswald and Clara Oswin Oswald were separate entities. Adding them all to the same infobox makes it crowded and confusing for newer viewers. [[User:66 Seconds|66 Seconds]] [[User talk:66 Seconds|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:54, November 8, 2014 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ==Story Placement==
| |
| | |
| Flatline
| |
| | |
| The Instruments of War - the Doctor tries to take Clara to the Frost Fair, mentions the Doctor "fitting in her purse" therefore after Flatline
| |
| | |
| Silhouette - If Silhouette came before TIoW, because they visited the Frost Fair in Silhouette, why would the Doctor try to take Clara there (albeit in another century) later?
| |
|
| |
| Is this correct?{{Unsigned|Purplehead}}
| |
| | |
| == One Personality Section ==
| |
| | |
| The personality section needs a cleanup. We've already established that the real Clara and all the echoes are one person. Therefore, the personality section should NOT be split into three. For crying out loud, it's been nearly two years at this stage. They should all be combined into one section. The interests section is also redundant and needs to be implemented into the personality section. Also, the similarities page could be removed.{{Unsigned|Joe Devaney}}
| |
| | |
| :Please remember to sign your posts. Also, it is customary on this wiki for users who bring up suggestions on discussion pages to '''wait for discussion''' before making any changes, especially when it comes to removing large sections of information. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:20, March 19, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ==Photo==
| |
| | |
| Where is the photo section/talk? Because a more recent photo of Clara might be more suitable.
| |
| | |
| [[Special:Contributions/47.55.222.162|47.55.222.162]]<sup>[[User talk:47.55.222.162#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:46, August 25, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| : As far as I can tell, there hasn't been any discussion since before the various echo pages merged together, whenever that was. The last time someone seemed to have mentioned it was back in [[Talk:Clara Oswald/Archive 2#Pictures|the archives (posts dated 3 January 2013)]]. I have my own ideas about what could be a more suitable or Clara-y screenshot to use over the one from ''The Day of the Doctor'', actually, but I'm waiting until a few episodes of series 9 airs before actually proposing a change. -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 22:43, August 25, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ==DOCTOR!!!==
| |
| | |
| So the Doctor page has many linked pages for each Doctor, linked by one infobox. Couldn't we unmerge and do this with Clara's page? because characters like Winnie Clarence have one paragraph where it would be more appropriate to have a page just for her. Especially if there is a reocurring Clara echo later it would be more appropriate not to have just one tiny section of a Clara page. After all, the Doctor played by Colin Baker in the same as the Doctor played by John Hurt, yet they have separate pages with one umbrella page encompassing it called "The Doctor".
| |
| | |
| My idea that I am suggest is to have pages such as:
| |
| | |
| Clara Oswin Oswald
| |
| Winnie Clarence
| |
| Oswin Oswald
| |
| Gallifreyan Echo (The Name of the Doctor)
| |
| | |
| and of course:
| |
| | |
| Clara Oswald
| |
| | |
| In this Clara Oswald page, there would be an infobox with links to
| |
| | |
| Oswin, Winnie, Clara, Gallifreyan, etc.
| |
| | |
| This would look similar to the Doctor's infobox.
| |
| | |
| I think that Clara's page is even more deserving of separate pages than the Doctor because the Doctor has one life with 13 faces whereas the Claras have different lives and they don't remember their past lives.
| |
| | |
| [[Special:Contributions/47.55.222.162|47.55.222.162]]<sup>[[User talk:47.55.222.162#top|talk to me]]</sup> 22:27, September 7, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| : I actually think that this is a discussion can be reopened. As I recall, a recent comic clearly set up that the different Claras are not one in the same. Very clearly. [[User:OttselSpy25|OS25]] ([[User Talk:OttselSpy25|talk to me, baby.]]) 22:31, September 7, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| I agree. Where can we do this?{{Unsigned-anon|47.55.222.162}}
| |
| | |
| :I'd be happy to just have one page called [[Clara's echoes]] and then giving each named echo liked Oswin Oswald, Clara Oswin Oswald, and Winnie Clarence their own sections. It gets very long and tedious to tack them onto the bottom of Clara's own page. I'd rather them have their own and just have Clara's page link to theirs. [[User:Mewiet|Mewiet]] [[User talk:Mewiet|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 01:43, October 26, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| I'm still hoping for a page for each echo, because technically they are different people in the universe, whethter or not they have similar names/perosnalities/faces. [[Special:Contributions/47.55.222.163|47.55.222.163]]<sup>[[User talk:47.55.222.163#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:24, November 22, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| :: This may be worth revisiting once Series 9 plays out. I agree the major splinters deserve their own pages because a) this article is long enough as it is and b) each splinter so far encountered in any substantial way has had unique personalities and personal histories. We know from ''Name of the Doctor'' that none of them just materialized fully formed. Each splinter lived a complete life. I agree it's not possible to do an article for each. For example, the unnamed splinter in the ''Summer Falls'' book, or the numerous ones illustrated in the comic strip. But those three, at least, deserve their own. Unless Series 9 undoes Clara's death in the remaining episodes (I'm not violating spoiler rules as I don't know) the only way Jenna Coleman will likely be able to return to the series in future is as a splinter, and I'll be very surprised if someone doesn't write a novel about such an encounter too, meaning if either happens that character will need her own page anyway, so may as well get the ball rolling now! [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:27, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| | |
| ==Template idea== | |
| | |
| {{Clara echoes}}{{Unsigned|Purplehead}}
| |
| :Please see [[Thread:121062]], where it was decided that Clara would have one article. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:33, November 22, 2015 (UTC)
| |
| * We don't need an article for every single one but the question must be reopened once Series 9 ends as there are at least 3 viable articles possible as Oswin, Clara Oswin and Winnie all have backstories and other information that can make articles. Frankly, if this wiki allows there to be a [[Man with chips]] article then we look stupid not having separate ones for the major and well-defined splinters. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:39, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| ::The thread Shambala has linked to explains why it was decided one page was the way to go. [[Man with chips]] is not a good comparison. He is one character - he gets a page. Clara/Oswin/Winnie etc. are all one and the same - she gets one page.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 14:56, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
| | Okay so, I've been told that the decision to keep the info about Clara's splinters on a single page was made some time ago, not long after ''The Name of the Doctor''{{'}}s premier. |
| ::: By that logic, then, there should be only one Doctor page instead of Thirteen or so, correct? After all it's all the same man. Considering the fact the series itself has emphasized how Clara became more like the Doctor, the echos could just as easily be called regenerations, right? [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 15:33, December 13, 2015 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| == Secret Adventures? ==
| | But a few things have changed since then. In light of our recently changed policy about splitting Time Lord pages by incarnation, as well as the 2014 introduction of another Clara splinter (Winnie Clarence from ''Blood & Ice''), I believe Clara's splinters should, indeed, be split off into their own pages. |
| Why is that one section called Secret Adventures? What was secret about them or was there an "erased from history" storyline I missed? [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 14:34, November 27, 2015 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| ==Paragraph breaks==
| | Now, obviously doing pages for ''every single'' Clara that appears in the TBotD montage, or the ones on that one ''Blood & Ice'' page would be super impractical, which is why I suggest only giving the big three their pages. So; [[Oswin Oswald (Asylum of the Daleks)]], [[Clara Oswin Oswald (The Snowmen)]], [[Winnie Clarence (Blood & Ice)]]. |
| Eeek! Where did all the paragraph breaks go? [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 21:43, January 17, 2016 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| :I think an editor misinterpreted the cleanup message at the top of the page about "we do not need three or more paragraphs per story", and instead of making the writing more concise, they removed all of the paragraph breaks. I've fixed it. {{User:PicassoAndPringles/sig}} 22:10, January 17, 2016 (UTC)
| | As for the other splinters, they could go on a single page like [[Clara Oswald's splinters]]. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC) |
| :: Thanks. If time permits I'll dive in and do some trimming. Some stories deserve more detailed coverage than others. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:59, January 21, 2016 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| ==Splinters or echoes==
| | : I feel that this idea makes perfect sense and would like to show my support. These splinters are near-enough separate characters, at least as much as, say, [[Shadow People (Extremis)|Shadow World replicas of characters]], who recieve separate pages. [[User:Bongolium500|Bongo50 (aka Bongolium500)]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:10, 21 July 2021 (UTC) |
| I'll be honest, this is the only place where the term "splinter" is really used to describe Clara's many incarnations. "Echoes" seems to be the more often used term. What's the call - do we stick with splinter or change the term to echo here? [[Special:Contributions/68.146.52.234|68.146.52.234]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.52.234#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:59, January 21, 2016 (UTC) | |
|
| |
|
| :Valid point - 'echoes' is used in ''The Name of the Doctor'' whereas splinters is not, so echoes is the more accurate term. I say change. [[User:KingOrokos|KingOrokos]] [[User talk:KingOrokos|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 14:24, January 21, 2016 (UTC) | | :: I completely agree with this proposal. Notable Clara splinters should get their own pages and "cameo" splinters getting collated on one page. |
| | :: Only issues I have is the dabs; I feel like these are primary topics enough to not get dabs. The other thing is that a few Clara splinters appear in ''[[The Doctor: His Lives and Times]]'' which I feel should get their own pages but aren't as important as the aforementioned splinters. <div style="background-color:#0E234E; border: solid 0.5px gold; display: inline; white-space: nowrap;">[[doctorwho:user:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="background:#0E234E; color:white"><code>Epsilon</code></span>]][[doctorwho:user talk:Epsilon the Eternal|📯]] [[doctorwho:special:Contributions/Epsilon the Eternal|📂]]</div> 21:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| ==Sarah Louise Madison==
| | ::: I also support this idea. [[User:LauraBatham|LauraBatham]] [[User talk:LauraBatham|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:15, 22 July 2021 (UTC) |
| I'm trying to add this name but due to there not being an article on this person yet the template won't accept it. Madison played the "Time Zombie" version of Clara in "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" and should be included alongside Sophie Downham in the actors list. [[Special:Contributions/68.146.233.86|68.146.233.86]]<sup>[[User talk:68.146.233.86#top|talk to me]]</sup> 13:39, April 15, 2016 (UTC) | |
| :Have you tried doing it without the ref tag? That seemed to mess it up somehow. —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 16:06, April 15, 2016 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| ==Main aliases==
| | :::: I mean… it's not even a question of primary topics, is it? We don't currently know of any other DWU individuals named [[Oswin Oswald]] or [[Winnie Clarence]] than those splinters. There ''is'' no question of dabbing to be head. (Before anyone asks, this even applies to [[Clara Oswin Oswald]]. Despite a popular fandom misconception perpetuated by archiveofourown.org's tagging system, Oswin is ''not'' the prime Clara's middle name, that is extremely explict in ''[[The Bells of Saint John (TV story)|The Bells of Saint John]]''.) |
| Is there any reason why Winnie Clarence is the only "Main alias" listed in the infobox and not "Oswin Oswald" and "Clara Oswin Oswald"? Actually, since those two - and Winnie - were echoes, I don't think it's accurate to list any of them as "aliases" as they were technically different people, especially Winnie given the events of the comic strip. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] [[User talk:23skidoo|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 05:33, May 6, 2017 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| ==Dating Clara's era==
| | :::: Either way, not made up my mind on the specifics yet, but this seems basically reasonable as a proposal. The dialogue in ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]'' does lean towards the splinters being in some metaphysical sense their own persons (River's "But they won't be ''you''. You, the real ''you'', will ''die''" comes to mind). And more importantly, ''[[Blood & Ice (comic story)|Blood & Ice]]'') is entirely rooted in hammering the point home that Winnie is not Clara and is leading her own life. We don't cover all [[Cwej (species)|Cwejen]] on [[Chris Cwej]], which seems like a good precedent. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 02:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC) |
| Clara joins the Doctor in ''The Bells of Saint John'', which we know to take place in 2013. The leaves in the episode are brown and the trees almost bare, so it's autumn 2013. From ''For Tonight We Must Die'', we know that she is dead by October 2016.
| |
|
| |
|
| We see Clara have two Christmases (''The Time of the Doctor'' and ''Last Christmas''). These can take place in 2013, 2014 or 2015. However, ''Clara Oswald and the School of Death'' tells us that ''The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion'' has happened by September, 2015 (in keeping with it happening two years after ''The Day of the Doctor''). As such, ''The Time of the Doctor'' must be 2013 and ''Last Christmas'' must be 2014, meaning...
| | ::::: This ruling comes from an exceptional circumstance where it overrules a Forum decision before our Forums are officially brought back. When I saw this discussion was restarted, I noticed that the original ruling of merging Clara's articles were made a whole month ''before'' ''[[The Name of the Doctor (TV story)|The Name of the Doctor]]''. Even on the closing post, [[User:Tangerineduel]] made it explicit that the matter of separate pages were only to be revisited '''after''' the end of Clara's arc, although that didn't quite happen. |
| *'''2013''': ''The Bells of Saint John'' through to ''The Time of the Doctor''
| | ::::: Under this understanding, added to our now ever-stablishing precedent of having separate pages for different incarnations of Time Lords (while Clara ''isn't'' a Time Lord, and these aren't "incarnations", it is only logical to draw a parallel here). Community consensus is clear that this process only improves our coverage of content both upon editing, and reading. More than that, another strong argument for separate pages comes from "multi Time Lord events", where an incarnation of said Time Lord meets themselves in another incarnation. For Clara, this also applies, as the "main" Clara Oswald meets [[Winnie Clarence|one of her splinters]] in ''[[Blood and Ice (comic story)|Blood and Ice]]''. |
| *'''2014''': ''Into the Dalek'' through to ''Last Christmas''
| | ::::: [[User:WaltK]]'s proposal is hereby approved. [[Oswin Oswald]], [[Clara Oswin Oswald]] and [[Winnie Clarence]]. "Blink-and-you-miss" cameos present at the end of ''The Name of the Doctor'' and ''Blood and Ice'' echoes are, truly, more than enough covered under a single page called [[Clara Oswald's splinter]]s, which can also discuss the nature of the splinters itself. Should any further echoes of Clara appear in a story as more than aforementioned "quick cameos", they too can have a separate page. [[User:OncomingStorm12th|OncomingStorm12th]] [[User talk:OncomingStorm12th|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 15:53, 25 July 2021 (UTC) |
| *'''2015''': ''The Magician's Apprentice'' through to ''The Zygon Invasion'' (''Face the Raven'' doesn't necessarily take place in Clara's time)
| |
|
| |
|
| The fact that Kate seems to meet the Doctor for the first time in ''The Power of Three'' is irreconcilable with Clara's timeline. ''The Power of Three'' takes place between 2016 and 2019, but Clara has two Christmases after meeting UNIT and is dead by late 2016. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] 16:22, June 8, 2018 (UTC) | | Reviving this topic because, all these years later, my opinion on the "page for every single Clara splinter" thing has changed. I believe it can easily be done by numbering. The individual Clara’s in the TNotD montage are quite easy to define. The Clara on Gallifrey who talks to the First Doctor would be [[Clara Oswald splinter 1 (The Name of the Doctor)]] and so on. The same can potentially be done with the Clara’s on that one page of ''Blood and Ice''. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
|
| |
|
| == Non-heterosexual ==
| | :: That it ''could'' be done is one thing, but I'm uncertain that it would be useful. This feels adjacent to how we handle other-reality counterparts. [[User:Scrooge MacDuck|'''Scrooge MacDuck''']] [[User_talk:Scrooge MacDuck|⊕]] 00:41, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
| Clara's page itself says the following: "''Clara's sexual orientation was suggested to be bisexual, though this is not explicitly stated''". Kissing a girl doesn't mean that she isn't straight. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 23:21, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| :Have you read [[The Day of the Doctor (novelisation)]]? [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:23, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| :: Or [[Clara and the TARDIS (home video)]]? [[User:Epsilon the Eternal|<span style="color:gold"><tt>'''Epsilon'''</tt></span>]] ([[User talk:Epsilon the Eternal|''<tt>Contact me</tt>'']]) 23:25, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
|
| |
|
| :::Yes and yes. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 23:26, October 4, 2020 (UTC) | | ::: Agreed, these are splinters we know so little about that I'm not entirely sure what their articles could say beyond "they shouted for the Nth Doctor during X". We know even less about the ones seen in ''Blood and Ice''. [[User:BlueSupergiant|BlueSupergiant]] [[User talk:BlueSupergiant|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:49, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
| ::::Then you know that she expressed interest in Kate Stewart. Call it romantic or sexual, it's of the relevant type.
| |
| :::::'Am I to understand, from this apparently random collection of words, that you thought this Kate person was ... ''attracted'' to you?'[...]'And then you concluded that she had to be an alien duplicate. I see.'
| |
| :::::'No, I concluded maybe we should get a drink sometime. But when I thought about it something was wrong. Because when we first met, she'd barely looked at me. People don't suddenly start fancying you out of nowhere, because you happen to hang around for a bit. Except in romcoms. Written by stalkers.'
| |
| ::::So she was clearly receptive to another woman being interested in her.[[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:33, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| :::::Is that any more convincing than the case for Craig Owens or Grisenko being non-heterosexual because they seemed receptive to being kissed by the Doctor? -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 23:37, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| ::::::Vaguely positive reaction to a kiss ≠ genuinely wanting to ''go on a date'' with somebody. And that's without going into Nina or Ashildr. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:42, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| Substantially? One is not pulling back in a way that shows you're deeply uncomfortable, the other is not only not discouraging the more subtle, long form, mode of interaction, it's actively being receptive and wanting to go along with it. Combine that with the other pieces of evidence and it's really quite strong. Note that I'm not saying she'd necessarily call herself bisexual, that's an identity. But for our purposes of "not heterosexual", she fits the bill. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:46, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| : Have you seen ''Closing Time'' and ''Cold Blood''? That's not an accurate representation of what happened in either scene. "''I could kiss you.''" / "''If you insist.''". I interpreted Clara's comment in the novelisation of ''The Day of the Doctor'' as a joke when I read it, but I concede that there do seem to be a lot of suggestions that she isn't heterosexual, even if I personally don't believe it. -- [[User:Jack "BtR" Saxon|Saxon]] ([[User talk:Jack "BtR" Saxon|✉️]]) 23:51, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| ::This is well after Craig accepts that the Doctor is a bit nuts. Interpreting that in such a way is stretching. Note here that I'm not advocating for Amy to be included in the category, even though there are a ''few'' suggestions as to that (and I stress, few). Clara is a case where there's a variety of textual evidence revolving around multiple different women. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:56, October 4, 2020 (UTC)
| |
| Okay, putting my admin hat on. Clara Oswald is almost exactly the type of character for whom we need the vague [[:Category:Non-heterosexual individuals]]. Basically the first thing she was introduced saying is that [[Nina (Asylum of the Daleks)|her first kiss was a girl]], and she has made a point of enjoying how much she enjoyed kissing several female historical figures since then, ''and'' had that moment in ''Clara and the TARDIS''. ''And'' she once considered going on a date with Kate. '''Clara belongs in the category,''' even if people are free to make up their own headcanons. --[[User:Scrooge MacDuck|Scrooge MacDuck]] [[User talk:Scrooge MacDuck|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:00, October 5, 2020 (UTC)
| |
