Talk:Ninth Doctor 1 (The Tomorrow Windows): Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 22:29, 20 December 2023

Pronouns[[edit source]]

The Tomorrow Windows only describes this Ninth Doctor as such: "A stockily-built figure in a crushed velvet suit and eyeliner stared arrogantly into the distance." Now, it was almost certainly Morris's intent that the "figure" was male, considering that Eddie Izzard at the time publicly identified as such and the concept of Time Lords crossing genders on regeneration had not been firmly established, but in light of her current pronouns is it fair to assume that this Ninth Doctor uses he and him? I would personally lean towards using gender-neutral descriptors. --SJBroadside ☎ 19:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The male pronouns should be kept, in my opinion. The author envisioned Izzard at a time when she was still identifying as male. It's not like, for example, the titular character of Juno is retroactively a boy because of Elliot Page. WaltK ☎ 21:38, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The author's intended fancasting needn't come into it: this character may have been intended by the author to be evocative of Izzard, but given that it's a prose story, in no sense are they played by her. So, setting aside that question entirely per T:NO RW, the fact remains that The Tomorrow Windows never uses any pronouns for this character (nor for the glimpsed Doctors in aggregate), so our use of male pronouns is conjectural and must be amended. I'll do so now. – NateBumber (☎) 15:23, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, by that logic, shouldn't the other Tomorrow Windows Doctor said to be based on Alan Davies also have gender-neutral pronouns? WaltK ☎ 20:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Probably, yes! I've edited the other page for consistency — did my best to make it unintrusive. --SJBroadside ☎ 21:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Nicely executed! Yes, the three visions with unspecified gender are the "figure", the "student", and the "aristocrat" (whose pronouns we know from another source). – NateBumber (☎) 22:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

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 == Pronouns ==
+The Tomorrow Windows only describes this Ninth Doctor as such: "A stockily-built figure in a crushed velvet suit and eyeliner stared arrogantly into the distance." Now, it was almost certainly Morris's intent that the "figure" was male, considering that Eddie Izzard at the time publicly identified as such and the concept of Time Lords crossing genders on regeneration had not been firmly established, but in light of her current pronouns is it fair to assume that this Ninth Doctor uses he and him? I would personally lean towards using gender-neutral descriptors. --[[User:SJBroadside|SJBroadside]] [[User talk:SJBroadside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
+: The male pronouns should be kept, in my opinion. The author envisioned Izzard at a time when she was still identifying as male. It's not like, for example, the titular character of {{wi|Juno (film)|Juno}} is retroactively a boy because of Elliot Page. [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:38, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
+:: The author's intended fancasting needn't come into it: this character may have been intended by the author to be ''evocative'' of Izzard, but given that it's a prose story, in no sense are they ''played'' by her. So, setting aside that question entirely per [[T:NO RW]], the fact remains that ''The Tomorrow Windows'' never uses any pronouns for this character (nor for the glimpsed Doctors in aggregate), so our use of male pronouns is conjectural and must be amended. I'll do so now. – [[User:NateBumber|NateBumber]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 15:23, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
+::: Well, by that logic, shouldn't [[Ninth Doctor 2 (The Tomorrow Windows)|the other ''Tomorrow Windows'' Doctor said to be based on Alan Davies]] also have gender-neutral pronouns? [[User:WaltK|WaltK]] [[User talk:WaltK|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 20:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
-The Tomorrow Windows only describes this Ninth Doctor as such: "A stockily-built figure in a crushed velvet suit and eyeliner stared arrogantly into the distance." Now, it was almost certainly Morris's intent that the "figure" was male, considering that Eddie Izzard at the time publicly identified as such and the concept of Time Lords crossing genders on regeneration had not been firmly established, but in light of her current pronouns is it fair to assume that this Ninth Doctor uses he and him? I would personally lean towards using gender-neutral descriptors. --[[User:SJBroadside|SJBroadside]] [[User talk:SJBroadside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
+::::Probably, yes! I've edited the other page for consistency — did my best to make it unintrusive. --[[User:SJBroadside|SJBroadside]] [[User talk:SJBroadside|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 21:59, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
+:::::Nicely executed! Yes, the three visions with unspecified gender are the "[[Ninth Doctor 1 (The Tomorrow Windows)|figure]]", the "[[Ninth Doctor 2 (The Tomorrow Windows)|student]]", and the "[[Ninth Doctor (Scream of the Shalka)|aristocrat]]" (whose pronouns we know from another source). – [[User:NateBumber|NateBumber]] ([[User talk:NateBumber|☎]]) 22:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)