Talk:A Christmas Carol (TV story): Difference between revisions

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== Looking under the Bed ==  
{{ArchCat}}
== Shark - cause of death ==


the doctor saying about not looking under 12 year old Kazran's bed is clearly a reference to him having dirty magazines not the Clockwork Robots since he said 'okay, you're 12 we won't look under your bed'
<pre>...The Screwdriver starts to kill the shark from the inside...</pre>


That's what I thought when I watched it too.
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 11:38, December 26, 2010 (UTC)


: The only dirty magazines here are in your head. The reference was to monsters under the bed - a fear most children have. 22:10, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
The shark is suffocating, since it can't return to the clouds after being stunned.


:: False.  The Doctor said that HE wouldn't look under the boy's  bed.  He didn't tell the boy not to look under the bed.  I've removed the incorrect reference.  [[User:MrItty|MrItty]] 00:53, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
At 23:30, quoting the Doctor:


== Fog Fish ==
I doubt they can survive long outside the cloud - just quick raiding trips


Just out of curiosity, and i'm not sure if they were properly named in the episode, but is anyone up for nicknaming the species of fish as Fog Fish? i thought it would be a pretty nice idea. [[User:Rawrgoaway|Rawrgoaway]] 22:45, December 25, 2010 (UTC)
[[User:Mike.norrish|Mike.norrish]] 22:02, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
*Did anyone else get the weird feeling they might be some kind of enormous, tame version of the Vashta Nerada? (Especially as the Doctor reacted to clearly invisible/too-small-to-see things biting him). --[[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 07:20, December 26, 2010 (UTC)


Seriously, where do you people come from?--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]] 18:58, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
== Timeline ==


*Do we bother you or something? :\ [[User:Rawrgoaway|Rawrgoaway]] 04:37, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
Doesn't this story happen "after" [[TV]]: ''[[Death of the Doctor]]''? [[User:TheTARDIScontroller|TheTARDIScontroller]] 04:58, January 20, 2011 (UTC)


== The Biggest Question of All ==
It probably does, but I don't think we can state that for sure. In both, Amy and Rory are off on a honeymoon, however they're off to another one at the end of this epiosode. We can assume that the two stories take place at approximately the same time, but there's nothing to explicitly state which came first. [[User:Spreee|Spreee]] 15:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)Spreee


Did the Doctor ''actually'' rewrite any of Kazran's life? Or did his appearance simply "jog his memory", and the Doctor wove this into an elaborate lie to trick him into ''thinking'' his memories were being rewritten? --[[User:Witoki|Witoki]] 07:20, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
== Plot Problem ==


I cant seem to figure out the plot to this episode, why does the doctor need to go through kazran at all? in 2.08/2.09 DW: The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, the doctor/tardis tows the rocket away from a BLACK HOLE, surely it follows that the tardis can retrieve the rocket in this episode from some bizzaro clouds??? Mick




With the second biggest being... with the sonic broken and half in the shark, does this mean they try to sell us ANOTHER new Sonic Screwdriver? [[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 08:57, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
[[Special:Contributions/121.44.137.139|121.44.137.139]] 07:30, January 24, 2011 (UTC)






They better not! I just bought the prop remakes for the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor's sonics, and I'm not ready to buy anymore! But yes, I think they might, I made the change in [[Sonic screwdriver]] about the Mark VII being destroyed in the episode. [[User:TheTARDIScontroller|TheTARDIScontroller]] 08:50, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
:: Yea, In addition to that... Towards the beginning of the episode, the screen in the ship shows the TARDIS fly by it.. So the Doctor could have easily found the ship and saved everyone.... [[User:TheTARDIScontroller|TheTARDIScontroller]] 00:16, March 21, 2011 (UTC)


I seem to remember the Tenth doctor's screwdriver being broken and he makes another one exactly the same, can't remember which episode though.
==Episode Numbering==
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 11:38, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
Is this christmas special really classed as Series 6? Just because the actual doctor who website places it as episode 14 of Series 5! [[User:Michael Downey|Michael Downey]] 18:33, March 20, 2011 (UTC)


This was 'Silence in the Library' wasnt it?
== Main image ==


I'm hoping he either retrieved one half from Abigail at the end and let it repair itself after somehow retrieving the other half from the shark, or has an identical replacement from the TARDIS. [[User:ProtoKun7|ProtoKun7]] 18:27, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
The main image is going to become an edit war soon, between me and [[User:Skittles the hog]]. He wants the frozen Abigail image. I want the nice and posh house of Kazran. Which is cropped and has the BBC insignia on it. [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 17:12, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


The Tenth Doctor overloaded his screwdriver in 'Smith And Jones'.[[User:Zodisgod|Zodisgod]] 21:56, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, so lets get this right. You think a picture of Kazran's house sums up the episode better than Abigail in her frozen state? I completely disagree. The house was highly insignificant, it wasn't unique. An image of that [[cloud bank]] would be cover it better than some landscape shot. Just for the record, this is the image:


<gallery>
file:Frozen.jpg|Abigail; more central than a house?
</gallery>


Didn't River tell the 10th to "Use the Red Setting", and he replied that it didn't have a Red Setting?  Seeing as how the 11th's original was green, I'm thinking he has to get a new one that has a Red Setting eventually....  [[User:MrItty|MrItty]] 00:55, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
As BC correctly pointed out, it does have the BBC insignia, so that needs removing. I see no problem with leaving the current image (that is, the house) up until this is done.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 17:17, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


==The Cratchitt Family==
:What's really wrong with my image though, STH? It's Kazran's house. Snow is falling. This really makes a user think, "oh this must be a Christmas special" feel. [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 17:32, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
Am I the only thinking that in the many decades between Sardick being a young man and Michael Gambon, Abigail's family just didn't age at all???
[[User:Geek Mythology|Geek Mythology]] 11:38, December 26, 2010 (UTC)


I was thinking about that too. I'm glad I'm not the only one too. The Doctor was trying to do card tricks with the little boy when Kazran was a teenager. Then at the beginning, when Kazran was an old man (when the Doctor came down the chimney) he was about to hit the same little boy. I say thats about a 50 year gap, and the boy is still a boy. We know Abigail didn't age because she was cryogenicly frozen, but the fact that her family didn't either is just strange. [[User:Gryffindor1991|Gryffindor1991]] 03:54, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
I see where your going with this and image quality/relevance is very much opinion, but I think the article title is sort of a hint as to the seasonal setting.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 17:36, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


== Plot Finishing ==
:What if the person can't read, then what? [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 17:37, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


I just tidied up a pretty shockingly written plot summary however it seems to stop at the apperance of the shark. I can tidy but I can't write so thats where Ill stop untill someone can put something up.
They're stuffed.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 17:40, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


== Isomorphic controls ==
:I'm starting to see a pattern emerging here. Either images is fine, they both represent the episode quite clearly. Personally, I would try and get on of the Doctor and with Young/Old Kazran, since the episode was about try to change his past so he was a better person. If I was to choose between the two images which are at war, I would choose the one supplied by Skittles. [[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 17:41, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


Any thoughts on why the Doctor claimed isomorphic controls didn't exist, even after the Master's laser screwdriver had them installed? Maybe just him being him. [[User:ProtoKun7|ProtoKun7]] 18:32, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
Er... why? [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 17:52, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


He didn't claim they didn't exist. He was just trying to look smug by saying Kazran did not have such technology. He has stated that isomorphic exists himself on occasion. ([[DW]]: ''[[Pyramids of Mars]]'', ''[[The Daleks]]'')--[[User:Skittles the hog|Skittles the hog]] 19:01, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
:I have already explained myself about what I think the image should be in my above post. As for choosing Skittle's image over yours, it is a tough decision, but the image that Skittles gave us is more to capturing what the episode was about. [[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 17:59, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


== Companions ==
Well, so's mine in a way. Kazran's house controls the fish and Kazran's house is where the Doctor first meets Kazran. So they are both important in their on way. [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 18:07, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


Does Kazran count as a one-off companion, or no? [[User:Thricewise|Thricewise]] 01:53, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
:Okay, I was thinking about it, and I realised yours was way better than mine. Abigail is more important. Changed the pic. Happy now? [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 09:01, August 16, 2011 (UTC)
:I'd say yes, same with Abigail. [[User:Ausir|Ausir]]<sup>[[User talk:Ausir|(talk)]]</sup> 03:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
:
:Yeah on one hand they travel with the doctor once a year. And on the other there only in one story and we didn't give Jo and Sarah Jane companion status for only traverling in the tardis in one story [[User:Joshoedit|Joshoedit]] 08:23, December 28, 2010 (UTC)


== I disagree about the listed Production Error. ==
Yep. I switched it back to the original filename.--{{User:Skittles the hog/sig}} 09:09, August 16, 2011 (UTC)


The listed Production Error claims that old Kazran touching his younger self is a violation of the Blinovitch Limitation Effect. I don't quite follow. Tell me if I'm overthinking this: In "The Big Bang", we saw the Sonic Screwdriver spark with itself due to the Effect, so that the Doctor could confirm that it was the same screwdriver. But Kazran is a human. He changes. The human body is completely renewed every seven years. Old Kazran is clearly more than seven years older than younger Kazran. He is physically different matter at this point. It is for that reason that I believe that touching his younger self does not violate the effect. This also explains why Amy touching her younger self in "The Big Bang" also does not result in a spark - she is at least seven years older than her younger self (even if you don't take into account the 1,894 years inside the Pandorica, since it appears to have preserved her matter, she was still 21 when she went in, which is more than seven years older than 7). Even though I've come to this conclusion, I realize that it probably does not satisfactorily explain the Time Lord touching his twelve-minutes-older self in "The Big Bang", but obviously, we do not know exactly how the Blinovitch Limitation Effect affects Time Lords.
== Last archive ==


So, in summary: Sonic Screwdriver sparks when it touches itself because it is the same matter. Humans do not if there are at least seven years between the older version and the younger version, because they are different matter. Am I overthinking it, or does this make perfect sense? [[User:Memcginn|Memcginn]] 08:53, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
Why was the last few discussions archived? There were only three discussions! [[User:BroadcastCorp|BroadcastCorp]] <small>([[User talk:BroadcastCorp|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/BroadcastCorp|contribs]])</small> 17:40, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


But in [[Mawdryn Undead]], where we first learn about the Effect, it's the two aspects of the Brigadier touching each other that generates the energy that saves the day. And they were different, as the contact had affected the Brigadier so he didn't remember encountering himself years before until the moment of contact (again). So, call it a continuity or production error, or Moffat trying to pretend what had been a central plot point for the 5th Doctor no longer applied. [[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 09:08, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
:The only reason I can think is is that they are all from before the episode was broadcast, meaning that when the episode was broadcast, the talk page started as a clean slate. [[User:Mini-mitch|MM]]/<small>[[User talk:Mini-mitch|Want to talk?]]</small> 17:43, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


:Small quibbel: "Mawdryn Undead" doesn't imply that the Brigadier's time line has been altered. It's a straight shot from 1977 to 1983. Within this story the Doctor fiddles with Kazran's time line. Does that pre-empt the BLE? Maybe. Could the preceeding series changed the rules a bit? Maybe. Either of those, or both, could be used to explain what is an important character plot point in this story. - [[User:Byfield|Byfield]] 09:18, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
== Companion-lite? ==
::Your points are good. However, the contact did effect the Brigadier: his "breakdown", his quarters so unkempt when before very ship shape, the memory of contact with his older self suppressed until just before he touches and says "I remember...". Certainly not an authority on BLE to say either of us is "right", but there are similarities that lend to the belief of either error or pretending what was "true" in the past no longer is. Which gives us a stronger emotional moment (the Kazrans hugging and getting thrown across the room would not have had the same drama as them hugging and the elder apologising as he cried).
 
::Ignoring BLE made a better story, even if it waived a "law".[[User:Lmb02|Lmb02]] 09:35, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
Should we dub this story a 'Companion-lite' story? Amy and Rory only play small roles in this episode, and Kazran and Abilgail are the 'main' companions for the story.
:In "Mawdryn Undead", the older Brigadier is only older by six (less than seven) years, so he's not made of entirely different matter. Some of the stuff between them is exactly the same, so it seems to me like the Effect would apply there without contradicting my idea. [[User:Memcginn|Memcginn]] 09:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 
[[User:TARDIS2468|TARDIS2468]] <sup>[[User talk:TARDIS2468|talk to me]]</sup> 06:17, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 
== Possible Production Error ==
 
When the Doctor and the young Kazran go downstairs to find a 'ice box', the video from the older Kazran's time supposedly shows them as if the camera still accompanied the Doctor and younger Kazran downstairs. How is that possible if the camera was at younger Kazran's bedroom? o.O ----[[User:Protozom]] [[User Talk:Protozom]] 00:30, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
:It's not a production error, it's more of a continuity error. You can check [[Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes]] to see if it's already listed. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 00:35, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 
== Main enemy ==
 
The lead implicitly says that Kazran Sardick is the main antagonist, but the infobox claims that Elliot is. Now, considering Elliot's been dead for twenty years while the starliner is crashing, surely it's Kazran deliberately avoiding opening the cloud belt and the fact that the Doctor is changing his entire timeline makes Kazran the closest thing this story has to an "enemy". -- [[User:Tybort|Tybort]] ([[User talk:Tybort|talk page]]) 21:54, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
 
:I agree. [[User:Shambala108|Shambala108]] [[User talk:Shambala108|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 23:47, December 22, 2014 (UTC)
 
== Main enemy ==
 
Why is Elliot listed as the main enemy? Arguably there's no antagonist, but the closest thing there is to one is definitely old Kazran. Elliot barely appears and interacts with no characters other than Kazran. [[Special:Contributions/86.153.93.173|86.153.93.173]]<sup>[[User talk:86.153.93.173#top|talk to me]]</sup> 19:16, August 31, 2020 (UTC)
:This is how the page has been since ''2014''. Some users in the past like you have made the same argument, that Elliot barely interacts with other characters, so can't be the main enemy, but if you look at the edits, these arguments have been universally rejected, including by admins. Elliot is the one who causes the conflict in this episode, as he causes Kazran to be awful through child abuse, he creates the machine, and when Kazran becomes less like Elliot, Elliot's actions still threaten everyone. [[User:Najawin|Najawin]] [[User talk:Najawin|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:20, August 31, 2020 (UTC)
:: I was just about the same thing. Think of Eliot as like the old king from ''Frozen 2''.[[User:BananaClownMan|BananaClownMan]] [[User talk:BananaClownMan|<span title="Talk to me">☎</span>]] 19:24, August 31, 2020 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 19:24, 31 August 2020

Archive.png
 Archives: #1, #2

Shark - cause of death[[edit source]]

...The Screwdriver starts to kill the shark from the inside...


The shark is suffocating, since it can't return to the clouds after being stunned.

At 23:30, quoting the Doctor: 

I doubt they can survive long outside the cloud - just quick raiding trips

Mike.norrish 22:02, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Timeline[[edit source]]

Doesn't this story happen "after" TV: Death of the Doctor? TheTARDIScontroller 04:58, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

It probably does, but I don't think we can state that for sure. In both, Amy and Rory are off on a honeymoon, however they're off to another one at the end of this epiosode. We can assume that the two stories take place at approximately the same time, but there's nothing to explicitly state which came first. Spreee 15:36, January 24, 2011 (UTC)Spreee

Plot Problem[[edit source]]

I cant seem to figure out the plot to this episode, why does the doctor need to go through kazran at all? in 2.08/2.09 DW: The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, the doctor/tardis tows the rocket away from a BLACK HOLE, surely it follows that the tardis can retrieve the rocket in this episode from some bizzaro clouds??? Mick


121.44.137.139 07:30, January 24, 2011 (UTC)


Yea, In addition to that... Towards the beginning of the episode, the screen in the ship shows the TARDIS fly by it.. So the Doctor could have easily found the ship and saved everyone.... TheTARDIScontroller 00:16, March 21, 2011 (UTC)

Episode Numbering[[edit source]]

Is this christmas special really classed as Series 6? Just because the actual doctor who website places it as episode 14 of Series 5! Michael Downey 18:33, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

Main image[[edit source]]

The main image is going to become an edit war soon, between me and User:Skittles the hog. He wants the frozen Abigail image. I want the nice and posh house of Kazran. Which is cropped and has the BBC insignia on it. BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 17:12, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, so lets get this right. You think a picture of Kazran's house sums up the episode better than Abigail in her frozen state? I completely disagree. The house was highly insignificant, it wasn't unique. An image of that cloud bank would be cover it better than some landscape shot. Just for the record, this is the image:

  • Abigail; more central than a house?

    Abigail; more central than a house?

As BC correctly pointed out, it does have the BBC insignia, so that needs removing. I see no problem with leaving the current image (that is, the house) up until this is done.--Skittles the hog - talk 17:17, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

What's really wrong with my image though, STH? It's Kazran's house. Snow is falling. This really makes a user think, "oh this must be a Christmas special" feel. BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 17:32, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I see where your going with this and image quality/relevance is very much opinion, but I think the article title is sort of a hint as to the seasonal setting.--Skittles the hog - talk 17:36, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

What if the person can't read, then what? BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 17:37, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

They're stuffed.--Skittles the hog - talk 17:40, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I'm starting to see a pattern emerging here. Either images is fine, they both represent the episode quite clearly. Personally, I would try and get on of the Doctor and with Young/Old Kazran, since the episode was about try to change his past so he was a better person. If I was to choose between the two images which are at war, I would choose the one supplied by Skittles. MM/Want to talk? 17:41, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Er... why? BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 17:52, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I have already explained myself about what I think the image should be in my above post. As for choosing Skittle's image over yours, it is a tough decision, but the image that Skittles gave us is more to capturing what the episode was about. MM/Want to talk? 17:59, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well, so's mine in a way. Kazran's house controls the fish and Kazran's house is where the Doctor first meets Kazran. So they are both important in their on way. BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 18:07, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I was thinking about it, and I realised yours was way better than mine. Abigail is more important. Changed the pic. Happy now? BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 09:01, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Yep. I switched it back to the original filename.--Skittles the hog - talk 09:09, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Last archive[[edit source]]

Why was the last few discussions archived? There were only three discussions! BroadcastCorp (talk | contribs) 17:40, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

The only reason I can think is is that they are all from before the episode was broadcast, meaning that when the episode was broadcast, the talk page started as a clean slate. MM/Want to talk? 17:43, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

Companion-lite?[[edit source]]

Should we dub this story a 'Companion-lite' story? Amy and Rory only play small roles in this episode, and Kazran and Abilgail are the 'main' companions for the story.

TARDIS2468 talk to me 06:17, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Possible Production Error[[edit source]]

When the Doctor and the young Kazran go downstairs to find a 'ice box', the video from the older Kazran's time supposedly shows them as if the camera still accompanied the Doctor and younger Kazran downstairs. How is that possible if the camera was at younger Kazran's bedroom? o.O ----User:Protozom User Talk:Protozom 00:30, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

It's not a production error, it's more of a continuity error. You can check Theory:Doctor Who television discontinuity and plot holes to see if it's already listed. Shambala108 ☎ 00:35, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Main enemy[[edit source]]

The lead implicitly says that Kazran Sardick is the main antagonist, but the infobox claims that Elliot is. Now, considering Elliot's been dead for twenty years while the starliner is crashing, surely it's Kazran deliberately avoiding opening the cloud belt and the fact that the Doctor is changing his entire timeline makes Kazran the closest thing this story has to an "enemy". -- Tybort (talk page) 21:54, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Shambala108 ☎ 23:47, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

Main enemy[[edit source]]

Why is Elliot listed as the main enemy? Arguably there's no antagonist, but the closest thing there is to one is definitely old Kazran. Elliot barely appears and interacts with no characters other than Kazran. 86.153.93.173talk to me 19:16, August 31, 2020 (UTC)

This is how the page has been since 2014. Some users in the past like you have made the same argument, that Elliot barely interacts with other characters, so can't be the main enemy, but if you look at the edits, these arguments have been universally rejected, including by admins. Elliot is the one who causes the conflict in this episode, as he causes Kazran to be awful through child abuse, he creates the machine, and when Kazran becomes less like Elliot, Elliot's actions still threaten everyone. Najawin ☎ 19:20, August 31, 2020 (UTC)
I was just about the same thing. Think of Eliot as like the old king from Frozen 2.BananaClownMan ☎ 19:24, August 31, 2020 (UTC)
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