Howling:Doctor's Death

I believe that the doctor was killed by River Song, because, most people know that she is the little girl in the spacesuit. also, early on when Amy meets River, she asks why she was put into prison, and River repies 'i killed a man... the best man i ever knew.' which, is likely to be the doctor. furthermore, this theory fits with River's comment 'We are travelling in different directions... the first time i saw him, it was the last time he saw me.' Please comment, (i'm kindof hoping i'm wrong, i don't want the doctor to die! )-: ) thanks

can you please relocate your comment to the bottom of the page and sign it with 4 ~. 60.229.177.44 06:15, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Howling: → Howling archive → The Howling archives → Doctor's Death

This thread has been archived.

Please create a new thread on The Howling if you want to talk about this topic some more.
Please DO NOT add to this discussion.

So I believe that the doctor killed in the begining of series 6 was the ganger doctor the only proof I have is that the doctor that got killed was wearing the wrong shoes, the doctor mentioned that they were both there when he got killed and it mentioned it in the recap of the ganger episode ... reasons why not cause I figured it out. Cory Jaynes 03:48, August 3, 2011 (UTC) &nbsp

If you have any proof for/against post it here. Cory Jaynes 03:49, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember the Doctor wearing the wrong pair of shoes...do you have a picture? --Bold Clone 03:51, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

This has been brought up many times before. The future Doctor in The Impossible Astronaut is definitely wearing different shoes from the present Doctor we see through the rest of the episode. Then, in The Rebel Flesh, his shoes are destroyed by the acid, and he has to change into new ones—but the ganger copied the Doctor before that happened, so he has the Doctor's old shoes. Amy pointedly notices their different shoes at 03:55 in The Almost People, and uses them to distinguish the two. Then, at the end of the episode, we learn that at some point they switched shoes to trick Amy. So, the ganger Doctor ends up in the future shoes, which the real one returns to the TARDIS in the present shoes.

Except that, if you actually look, this is backward. The "present Doctor shoes" in TIA are low 4-hole brown shoes with thick laces. Those aren't the shoes he's wearing when he lands at the monastery. (In fact, I think he's changed multiple times: it looks like he has different shoes in the second half of Moon, yet another pair in Black Spot, and a 4th pair in Wife and the start of Flesh.) But, guess which shoes he puts on after burning his new shoes? When you see the two Doctors side by side at 03:55, the real Doctor, on the right, is clearly wearing the 4-hole brown shoes from TIA. So, after they swap, the ganger ends up dying in the present-Doctor shoes, while the real Doctor walks into the TARDIS wearing the future-Doctor shoes.

The Doctors switched shoes to trick Amy into thinking she knew who the real Doctor was, and Moffat switched shoes before that to trick the fans who'd caught last year's jacket into thinking they knew who the future Doctor was. Very clever. (And even more clever that most full-body shots of the Doctor throughout the season show him from the ankles up, so you have to watch very carefully to catch his shoes.)

Of course that doesn't mean it can't be the ganger who died. As if it wasn't obvious that people can change shoes whenever they want, he's already changed again by the middle of Good Man. Then again, it's also possible that the real Doctor dies, and the ganger (stabilized by the TARDIS, just like Jimmy and Dicken) takes his place for the rest of the series (or until the current timeline gets aborted). Or the ganger Doctor could be completely irrelevant. Moffat wants to make sure we're in suspense.

Anyway, here are some screenshots that I found online. To get a better view, find the scene on your DVR and watch for a few seconds; the lighting is changing in all four shots, which means the caps aren't very good.

• The Impossible Astronaut 07:57: future Doctor's corpse
• The Impossible Astronaut 16:49: present Doctor
• The Almost People 03:54: shoes side by side
• A Good Man Goes to War' 31:55: Doctor in future shoes

--173.228.85.118 06:11, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know how to get them to come up as images, so you'll have to click the links. --173.228.85.118 06:12, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Okay so the fact that people can change shoes is kinda a good point ... but its a t.v. show and most people in t.v. shows don't really change shoes and clothes that much ... but they have been hinting at it ... but like i said it does seem to be a very popular theory so it maybe wrong ... if anybody else has a theory i wouldn't mind hearing it. Cory Jaynes 01:09, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

I like it. The thought that the killed Doctor was the ganger occurred to me after the two-parter, but it struck me as too early. However, the shoes are a clue on the exact order of the Doctor's jacket is Series Six. Of course that means that Moffat is repeating the type of clue, which means it is likely a red herring, which means w won't expect it, making it a wonderful clue.....Boblipton 01:43, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

@Cory Jaynes: It's true that people on TV don't change nearly as often as in real life, and that's even more true on Doctor Who. But not this season. Also, as I mentioned above, this season's episodes are full of shots of the Doctor from his ankles up. So, I'm pretty sure Moffat is deliberately teasing the fans, because he remembers everyone figuring out the jacket last year. --173.228.85.118 04:50, August 4, 2011 (UTC)

Okay right ... but off the shoe thing ... does anybody think that river calling the doctor calling an impossible man at the end of "Forest of the Dead" have anything to do with his death? Cory Jaynes 04:16, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

Probably not. It doesn't sound like she's talking about anything particular in his history, so much as the general point that he's just impossible to predict and capable of doing the impossible (with the joking double meaning that he's impossible to deal with). She's said similar things many times, after all. --173.228.85.118 09:38, August 7, 2011 (UTC)

Right, so; The Doctor finds boots in Leadworth Hospital ---> Boots become cloned and create Ganger Doctor with black boots. Shoe-less Doctor finds new brown boots ---> Two Doctors swap boots, so genuine Doctor now has black boots again. ---> Doctor is 'killed' by Astronaut in black boots.

So, that would make him the actual Doctor?

86.173.142.182 21:48, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

I think there are actually more shoe changes than just those, but yes, those are the critical ones; it's the actual Doctor, not the ganger, who ends up in the dead Doctor's shoes, so the who shoe thing is a red herring and/or a joke for the fans, not a clue. --173.228.85.118 04:15, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Black boots with a brown suit?Boblipton 10:36, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Better than pink! --89.242.67.61 14:39, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

If the Doctor had a pair of pink boots, you know he'd wear them, and you know he'd say, "I wear pink boots now, pink boots are cool", and you know he'd be right. --173.228.85.35 02:21, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

I've been battling with the mystery's surrounding the Doctor's apparent death - I can't shake the opening scene's of The Impossible Astronaut. The Doctor goes to outlandish ends to make himself noticed across time - waving to attract Amy and Rory's attention. But why? He sends an invite to Amy & Rory, so they can witness his death - why then is he trying to attract their attention? Is he trying to warn them of something, something he cannot write into invitation because it's not him who sends it? Is it because he's trapped in time and unable to reach them?

What I think: the jolly antics of the Doctor demonstrate a Timelord who's not facing an imminent, untimely death. Meaning, this waving Doctor is signfying to Rory and Amy that they aren't to take at face value the assassination they witness - the waving Doctor is aware of the events, of his seeming death. This doesn't mean the Doctor who turns up at the Diner (the none Stetson Doctor, who dies) is the Waving Doctor who dances with Laurel & Hardy. Sorry to throw a possible third 11th Doctor into things, but... Makgrey 20:29, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Don't you remember how the 10th Doctor reacted when he knew his song was ending? He seemed to have gotten up to plenty of "jolly antics" of his own. The Eleventh Doctor may be doing this simply because he is facing an imminent untimely death. He wants to have as much fun as he can before he dies.Icecreamdif 21:34, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

There is a difference, the 10th Doctor knowing he was about regenerate sets about visiting those he cares for to reassure them, to say farewell - he doesn't don a fez and prance about. Why go to such ends to attract attention to then leave Amy, Rory and River to witness his death so shockingly. If the 'waving' Doctor knows nothing of his future death, why all the gesticulating through time - Rory states 'it's as if he's trying to get our attention' (not direct quote). It seems an awful lot of trouble for the production team to build those sets just to demonstrate the 11th Doctor's a tad zany. If he's reassuring Amy and Rory that he's out in time having fun without them, well, maybe, but it seems an odd way to start the storyline - a mysterious blue envelop arriving would be the usual succinct beginning. I haven't a resolution I'm happy with, the whole sequence seems too 'preface' to me. Makgrey 22:18, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

I was talking about the 10th Doctor's adventures in between Waters of Mars and The End of Time. At that point, the Doctor didn't actually know whether he would die or just regenerate, and he clearly views regeneration as being comparable to death anyway. Besides, the Doctor at the beginning could just as easily been the 908 year old Doctor before he recieved the blue envelope from his future self.Icecreamdif 22:29, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

There are all kinds of reasons he might be trying to attract their attention, and then later change his mind and summon them to his death. (Remember, we're talking about a 200-year span for the Doctor here.) And there's a good chance that we haven't seen the reason yet because it's part of Moffat's big surprise ending to the season's story arc.

Here's one speculation: The Doctor is originally trying to get their attention because he's on the run and needs their help. But then he discovers that he's on an alternate timeline that shouldn't exist, one where Melody Pond was taken away without Amy and Rory ever finding out about it. He realizes that the timeline will have to be restored to the right one, which means his current self and his last 200 years of experiences will cease to exist. At that point, there's no more harm in he dies (or maybe he actually has to die, to prevent his time traveller memory from holding the alternate timeline together), so he uses his death as part of his plan to fix things. He gets Melody to shoot him in front of her younger self and Amy and Rory, to galvanize them and his own younger self into fixing the future without having to create a paradox by directly telling himself what to do.

Again, I'm not saying that's the answer; it's just one of many possibilities. But you can see how, if it's anything like that, it would pretty much have to be mysterious at this point in the season, or it would be pointless. --173.228.85.35 05:25, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

To the theory above thats what they did in turn left so i doubt it as for why the doctor is attracting they're attention he may not be it may be amy and rory attracting there own attention by making the doctor become more noticable in the second half of the season

secondly i just thought that it may actually be the silence making the doctor do all these things through out history since they've been there since the begining and there is atleast still one at the time of his death ... also one thing thats been bothering me was the fact that the doctor left them for no real reason ... just like in Amy's Choice? Cory Jaynes 21:18, August 14, 2011 (UTC)

I already said three times that there are all kinds of possible reasons, and I'm not suggesting that one is the reason, just giving it as an example of one of those many possibilities, so why would you try to argue about it?

As for the Silence making the Doctor do all those things: They don't even need to be all through history to do that; just implant one suggestion, "Get Amy's and Rory's attention by acting silly throughout history," and it doesn't matter whether they do that in 2011, 1969, or 5000 BC. But why? Are you suggesting they had some kind of complicated Batman Gambit where they had to get destroyed by him in 1969 in order to win in the long run?

Finally: We don't know why the Doctor left them, but I'll bet Rory asked him for some time off so they could get their married life organized, Amy went along with it, and the Doctor said OK. Every companion's story is different, and it's not as if he hasn't left some of them on their own for a while. (For that matter, he's already done it twice with Amy and once with Rory, even not counting dreams and deaths and so on.) --173.228.85.35 04:04, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Actually i think thats exactly what the silence is doing I mean why attack rome if you think rome fell? Cory Jaynes 01:01, August 17, 2011 (UTC)