Forum:Subpage tabs: Difference between revisions
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FWIW, my biggest bugbear with the current 'notices' is that they appear on /so many/ pages (and have done for months, even years now, and might be there for years to come since so much tidying up will take time) and they take up too much space (IMO). I don't think the pull-out tabs are a case of "out of sight, out of mind" personally, but I can see the opposing argument to that. Maybe instead there could be a way to simply "collapse" these notice boxes? That way, a user can see the relevant notices but easily and quickly 'collapse' them if they find them obtrusive? (Or invert the original idea - have said "pull out" boxes open by default, and users can hide them if they find them obtrusive.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">🚀</span>]] 11:50, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | FWIW, my biggest bugbear with the current 'notices' is that they appear on /so many/ pages (and have done for months, even years now, and might be there for years to come since so much tidying up will take time) and they take up too much space (IMO). I don't think the pull-out tabs are a case of "out of sight, out of mind" personally, but I can see the opposing argument to that. Maybe instead there could be a way to simply "collapse" these notice boxes? That way, a user can see the relevant notices but easily and quickly 'collapse' them if they find them obtrusive? (Or invert the original idea - have said "pull out" boxes open by default, and users can hide them if they find them obtrusive.) [[User:FractalDoctor|Fractal Doctor]] [[User talk:FractalDoctor|<span title="Send a space-time telegraph">🚀</span>]] 11:50, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | ||
: What about if the pullout is expanded by default for logged in users (the majority of editors) while collapsed by default for logged out users (the majority of readers)? I just remain unconvinced that the majoroty of readers will care about the content of these notices. [[User:Bongolium500|<span title="aka Bongolium500">Bongo50</span>]] [[User talk:Bongolium500|<span title="talk to me">☎</span>]] 11:54, 4 June 2023 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 11:54, 4 June 2023
If this thread's title doesn't specify it's spoilery, don't bring any up.
Opening post
With the conclusion of Forum:Temporary forums/Subpages 2.0, subpages are now allowed to exist on this wiki and, while they are still a little thin on the ground, I expect that more and more will be created as time progresses. A problem, however, is that there is currently no easy way to navigate between subpages. {{Main}} and {{gallerylink}} both work well enough, creating links in the relevant sections, but I feel that it would be nicer to have some centralised way to navigate between these pages, and for that I suggest some form of tab system. This is pretty common across other wikis. Starting with a well-known example, Wookieepedia uses subpages to separate "canon" content from "legends" content and uses a basic tab system to switch between them, for example on w:c:Wookieepedia:Luke Skywalker. A better example I know of is the RWBY Wiki. See w:c:RWBY:Ruby Rose for an example. In general, tabs are a common and easy to understand system for navigation and I feel work well with subpages.
Therefore, I have put together {{subpage tabs}}. It looks like this:
It automatically includes any of the "default" subpages (any approved for general use on the wiki) that exist for the page it is used on (or, in this case, the page specified). Additional, custom tabs can also be specified:
It also displays on mobile. It doesn't look great, but it functions and could be updated to look better there later on.
One problem that this introduces is that it adds to the general clutter that currently exists at the top of pages: {{cleanup}}, {{update}}, {{rename}}, {{speedy}}, {{delete}}, {{conjecture}}, {{NCMaterial}} and so on. I have a potential solution for this as well in the form of {{pullout}}. The idea is that templates that only matter to editors can be placed inside this template, creating a box that is hidden by default but can be "pulled out" from the right of the page. See the example below and to the right.
I feel that this is an acceptable compromise because, lets be honest, not many readers actually care about the conclusion of Thread:264489 or similar things that are noted in these templates just for editors. These templates are just more clutter that they have to scroll past to get to the content that they want to read. Tabs are, in my opion, a much more useful thing to place there instead.
The overall result is something like this:
text taken from Davros
- You may wish to consult
Davros (disambiguation)for other, similarly-named pages.
Davros, often referred to by his creations as the Creator and also known as the Dark Lord of Skaro, was originally the head of the Kaled Scientific Elite on the planet Skaro, but he became better known as the creator of the Daleks. The results of his attempts to bring the war on Skaro to an end were not as he envisioned, because the Daleks wiped out both the Thal and Kaled races, save for himself. Davros survived the centuries, using whatever medical assistance was available to sustain his life.
For a time, he sought to create a race of Daleks loyal to him, which led to the Imperial-Renegade Civil War, where he served as Emperor of the loyal Daleks, and later of the Dalek race as a whole. But his relationship with them was always a tense one. He was frequently hunted, maligned, or otherwise denigrated by one portion or other of the Daleks.
Davros had a brilliant scientific mind, and was constantly devising ways to give his creations greatness; often overlooking the fact they saw him as beneath them, and would often keep him imprisoned, either because he was a threat or for his genius. The only time they showed respect for him was when Davros neared death; Davros was kept alive by a machine that siphoned life energy off the Daleks. This let them trick the Doctor into donating regenerative energy, which renewed Davros and the Daleks.
Through his creations, many came to consider him responsible for trillions of deaths and innumerable wars across the universe. Despite the fact that he was not unquestionably the ruler of the Daleks, he was one of the Doctor's greatest enemies, rivalling the Master in both intellect and madness. Despite this, both Davros and the Doctor called each other friends on separate occasions. Davros considered the Doctor the closest thing that the scientist had to a familiar, even as they served as foes.
The Twelfth Doctor described Davros as "an insane, paranoid genius who [had] survived amongst several billion trigger-happy mini-tanks for centuries".
Thoughts? Bongo50 ☎ 21:31, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
Bongo, I love this! I love this so much. I've actively wanted this for a long time, having seen similar tabbing systems used on other Wikis. It's clean, tidy, and striking too (current/recent links to Gallery pages, for example, just feel lost and tacked on to the top of the page IMO).
I like the 'pull out' tab too. So many pages (and frequently visited ones at that) have clutter at the top, and I get tired of seeing "this page needs a clean up" (or whatever) before any actual information. Being able to still have these boxes for mods/admins is of course necessary, but I like the 'pull out' tab because it means they're hidden by default and I think the pages would just feel cleaner. If we implimented both of the suggestions from this thread, the tops of pages would be so much cleaner and tidier, and I vote yes to both ideas. Seeing it in action with the Davros example has very much sold me on it. Fractal Doctor 🚀 21:39, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
- I support the idea of subpage tabs. My only note is that I wish the Talk pages were as visible as this. Getting to talk pages is so convoluted these days, and since some wikis don't have them anymore I've found there a bit of a wasteland for discussions.
- On that note, I generally suppose every part of this. Based on this layout, as we forgoing linking the /Appearances subpage due to it already being in the infobox? Also, what the tab system looks like when it gets "full" per se? Would it drop down to a second row, get scrunched up, or become something you can scroll to the right on? OS25🤙☎️ 03:30, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Linking Fandom's comments on tabs since they're somewhat topical here. I don't think they're disqualifying, but we should at the very least consider them. We're not actually using tabs, we're using subpages that are linked in a way that make it look like we're using tabs. This is directly counter to Fandom's guidance on tabs, but, quite frankly, I think the names we have are probably sufficient for people to understand the issue? We might want to slightly modify the subpages so they always keep the infobox of the main page so as to preserve some sense of continuity, I can understand that view. I also agree that talk pages might want to be represented on this tabbed list, even if they're technically a different namespace and their own thing. Encourages people to get involved in wiki editing and be informed about the bts disagreements. But this is a might, there are reasons against it too, it might confuse readers.
- I could definitely see about adding talk pages to the tabs. When they get full, it looks like this:
- I don't think that this behaviour is ideal so I'll see about making it wrap onto 2 lines. This also highlights a small feature that I wasn't able to demonstrate in the examples in the opening post: the text for the current tab is boldened. Fandom recommends using Tabber. I am deliberately not using Tabber because Tabber doesn't work on mobile but my solution does.
- Regarding pullouts, I've written a gadget that will allow users with an account to optionally set all pullouts as open by default. I'm just waiting for the JavaScript to be reviewed (every piece of wiki-wide JavaScript on Fandom has to be reviewed to ensure that it's safe) which I expect will occur on Monday at the earliest. Would this help alleviate your "out of sight/out of mind" issue, Najawin? If not, how else would you suggest alleviating top of page clutter? Bongo50 ☎ 08:17, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm alone in this but I think these banners being clutter is a good thing! They show us that there's something on the page that needs addressing. Allowing people to opt-in isn't a solution - people should be forced to see these banners. Having this pullout is simply antithetical, imo, to the entire point of these banners. If we're turning them into pullouts, why not just make a note on a talk page? They're banners because we should see them. Najawin ☎ 08:24, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- (Let it be noted the last two responses were added while I typed this.) I strongly support the subpage navigation template Bongo made. It's exactly what I envisioned to help facilitate subpages, and it looks great too. I don't really have much more to say on that.
- But much as I admire the technical and visual aspect of it, I'm hesitant on the pull out tab as well. I actually do think it's valuable for both editors and readers to know if a change is proposed to an article. Additionally, it's not immediately clear what the tab actually is. That said, the issue of large notices and extremely specific rationales cluttering the tops of pages is also something that has irked me for quite some time. I think for these type of notices, it'd be better to a) make them smaller and less obtrusive, but still noticeable and b) note what the suggested change is, but leave the rationale hidden or even simply relegate it to the talk page. Wikipedia does both of these quite well, see for example the current suggested rename for Ptolemy. Even as a reader I find it notable that an article has a suggested rename, or may need references or updating in some area, but it doesn't take up a significant portion of the screen; anyone further interested can see the talk page. Chubby Potato ☎ 08:27, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, my biggest bugbear with the current 'notices' is that they appear on /so many/ pages (and have done for months, even years now, and might be there for years to come since so much tidying up will take time) and they take up too much space (IMO). I don't think the pull-out tabs are a case of "out of sight, out of mind" personally, but I can see the opposing argument to that. Maybe instead there could be a way to simply "collapse" these notice boxes? That way, a user can see the relevant notices but easily and quickly 'collapse' them if they find them obtrusive? (Or invert the original idea - have said "pull out" boxes open by default, and users can hide them if they find them obtrusive.) Fractal Doctor 🚀 11:50, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- What about if the pullout is expanded by default for logged in users (the majority of editors) while collapsed by default for logged out users (the majority of readers)? I just remain unconvinced that the majoroty of readers will care about the content of these notices. Bongo50 ☎ 11:54, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
