Forum:Wolf crew template

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Opening Post

I strongly believe that a new crew template is needed to replace {{wales crew}} for the new era we find ourselves in. After all, BBC Wales no longer produce Doctor Who, and production has changed quite a lot since 2005. Many old roles no longer exist, while many new ones have been created, and I feel that the old template is now too complex to properly handle the new credits. I wanted to use this forum to brainstorm how best to present the layout of the new template (which I plan to call {{wolf crew}}) and to recquisite feedback from others about my ideas.

Firstly, I want to look at the main categories. Currently, these are "General production staff", "Script department", "Camera and lighting department", etc. I'm thinking something like the following:

• General production staff
• Script department
• Camera and lighting department
• Sound
• Art department
• Special and visual effects
  • This one will cause some issues. Discussed later
• Costume, hair and make-up
  • This is a merger of the current "Costume department" and part of the "Make-up and prosthetics" categories. Looking at the recent credits, make-up is more linked to costume than to prosthetics. Prosthetics would be folded into "Special and visual effects".
• General post-production staff
• Music
  • This is a new one. Currently, these are placed in the top section, but I feel they'd work better as a category in the main section. Not convinced here, though.

We also need the heavy hitters. The following are on the final page of The Star Beast's credits:

• Casting director
• Music by
• Editor
• Director of photography
• Production designer
• Costume designer
• Hair & make-up designer
• Financial controller
• Line producer
• Production executive
• Head of production
• Production executive for BBC Studios
• Executive producer for the BBC
• Commissioning editor for the BBC

Maybe I'm blind, but I don't actually see the general executive producers credited anywhere. It's very similar for Boom. I don't know how to deal with this.

We also need to look at the special and visual effects credits. Pretty much, for the specials, there are multiple effects companies credited for each episode, each for different aspects of production and sometimes with identically named credits. I would like to differentiate these companies and I feel that the best way to do this is, for episodes with multiple companies, to split the special and visual effects into it's own section at the bottom of the template with multiple columns and subheadings for each company. For stories without multiple companies, the category would take up the normal amount of space in a shared column as normal.

So far, all of this is just a rough sketch and further discussion will be needed. I just wanted somewhere to put some thoughts down and perhaps get some wider input. Bongo50 ☎ 22:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Yeah, the full on EPs aren't in the credits, you have to get them from the BBC website. I'm not sure if a new template is the way to go or just modifying the old one, but some discussion is needed at least. Najawin ☎ 22:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I definetly think that a new template is the way to go. Updating the old one is a mess. By starting from scratch, we can cut out the old and now unused variables, make the template more maintabale and reorganise things to make them work better for the modern era without having to worry about those changes rippling all the way back to the TV Movie. Are there other positions credited in official places other than the end credits? Does that make those positions uncredited? This is way messier than I was originally hoping when I began to look at it. Bongo50 ☎ 22:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The EPs are credited after the opening titles, aren't they? Aquanafrahudy 📢 🖊️ 22:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The website is pretty barren. It just has the full EPs. Najawin ☎ 22:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Aquanafrahudy, so they are. That's very helpful. In both The Star Beast and Boom, the positions credited there are:

• Executive Producer
• Producer
• Director

Along with writer (which is in the title sequence), these are all obvious candidates for the heavy hitters section. The question then becomes whether we want any of the positions from the end of the credits sequence up here as well and, if so, how we decide who. Bongo50 ☎ 22:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Idea: all of the credits from the start of the episode go at the very top, in a similar position to EPs at the moment, like how there are multiple credits in that space on TDW 1 (using {{BTS crew}}). Then, all of the positions from the end of the credits go in the region below in the multiple-column arrangement. This seems like the least arbitrary way to do this. Bongo50 ☎ 22:47, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I like that idea – looking at the TDW page there's maybe a bit too much space in the producers section, but in this new season especially we're getting a lot of executive producers for some episodes, so something like that would work quite well. What if we had some of the last-page positions, like DOP or costume designer, appear in bold or something at the top of their respective crew sections, basically as heads of department? Something to recognise their significance without separating them so much from the rest of the credits; and then chuck the fancy-money-person types in their own mini-section.

Separately, would it be possible to add a flag to the template (either manual or automatic) for when some credits aren't displaying because they're new positions and the relevant variables still need to be added? I usually put the crew table up first thing after each episode, and I'm always paranoid that some well-meaning person right after will see it's not complete yet and redundantly add credits with inaccurate titles. Starkidsoph ☎ 12:40, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, this is a complete list of all credits since The Star Beast, sorted into categories I think vaguely make sense. I haven't done much with the order here, it's mostly just as they come in the credits but with the major positions (shown in bold) basically folded in.

At the very top would be Written by (up to 2), From a story by (up to 2), Executive Producer/s (up to 7), Producer, Director, Title Sequence (credited to “Painting Practice & Realtime Visualisation”), and The Meep and The Wrarth created by / The Toymaker created by, etc.

Movement	General production staff	Camera, lighting and sound	Art department	Costume, hair and make-up
Stunt Coordinator/s (up to 2) Stunt Performer/s (up to 20) Choreographer Dance Choreographer Associate Choreographer & Dancer Assistant Choreographer & Dancer Dancer/s (up to 37) Creature Choreographer Movement & Creature Choreographer Movement Coach Goblin King Puppeteer/s (up to 8) Puppeteer/s (up to 5) Doctor Piano Double Ruby Piano Double Maestro Music Double Dialect Coach Magic Consultant	Series Producer Co-producer Line Producer Financial Controller Production Manager Production Coordinator Assistant Production Coordinator Travel & Accommodation Coordinator Travel & Accommodation Secretary Production Secretary/ies (up to 2) Production Office Runner/s (up to 3) SAW Production Office Runner/s (up to 3) Production Assistant Producer's Assistant Director's Assistant SAW Director's Assistant/s (up to 2) Creative Coordinator Executive Assistant to Jane Tranter Executive Assistant to Julie Gardner Executive Assistant to Russell T Davies, Phil Collinson & Joel Collins [Executive Assistant to Russell T Davies & Phil Collinson Executive Assistant to Joel Collins] Script Editor Assistant Script Editor Supervising Location Manager Location Manager/s (up to 3) Assistant Location Manager/s (up to 2) Unit Manager/s (up to 2) Assistant Unit Manager Location Assistant/s (up to 2) Studio Manager Studio Assistant Production Accountant 1st Assistant Accountant AP Assistant Accountant Assistant Accountant/s - Payroll (up to 2) Cashier SAW Accounts Trainee Accounts Clerk Transport Manager Unit Driver/s (up to 5) HOD Health & Safety, Medical & Covid Assistant Safety Manager Covid Coordinator Covid Assistant Medic/s (up to 5) Catering (company) Facilities (company) Facilities Manager Casting Director Casting Associate Casting Assistant	Director of Photography 2nd Unit Director 1st Assistant Director 2nd Assistant Director Crowd 2nd Assistant Director Dancer Crowd 2nd Assistant Director 3rd Assistant Director Floor Runner/s (up to 2) SAW Floor Runner Base Runner SAW Base Runner SAW Floor Runner/Stand In Floor Runner/Stand In[s] (up to 2) SAW Cast Assistant Cast Assistant Camera Operator A Camera and Steadicam Operator B Camera Operator Focus Puller/s (up to 2) Clapper Loader/s (up to 2) Central Loader Camera Trainee/s (up to 3) SAW Camera Trainee Ronin Technician Digital Imaging Technician Data Manager Key Grip Grip Best Boy Grip Grip Trainee/s (up to 2) Entry Level Grip Trainee SAW Entry Level Grip Trainee Script Supervisor Entry Level Script Supervisor SAW Entry Level Script Supervisor Sound Recordist 1st Assistant Sound 2nd Assistant Sound Sound Trainee SAW Sound Trainee Gaffer Lighting Gaffer Rigging Gaffer Best Boy Rigging Best Boy Lighting Rigger Desk Operator Rigging Desk Operator Electrician/s (up to 4) ScreenSkills Trainee Electrician/s (up to 2)	Production Designer Supervising Art Director Senior Art Director/s (up to 3) Art Director/s (up to 4) Location Art Director Prop Art Director Assistant Art Director/s (up to 2) Standby Art Director Set Decorator Set Dresser Assistant Set Decorator/s (up to 2) Production Buyer Action Props Buyer Action Prop Buyer Assistant Buyer/s (up to 3) Petty Cash Buyer/s (up to 4) Set Decorating Assistant Floral Artist Draughtsperson Junior Draughtsperson/s (up to 5) Art Department Coordinator Art Department Assistant Storyboard Artist/s (up to 2) Prop Master Props Chargehand/s (up to 2) Standby Props (up to 2) Prop Hand/s (up to 8) Practical Electrician Storeman Trainee Storeman Prop Store Assistant Prop Stores Assistant Prop Driver Prop Painter Standby Painter Graphic Art Director Lead Concept Artist Concept Artist Junior Concept Artist Graphics Graphic Designer Assistant Graphic Designer Junior Graphic Designer Graphics Assistant SAW Graphic Trainee Playback Prop Modeller HOD HOD Prop Modeller Modeller/s (up to 5) Prop Sculptor Fabrication Buyer Rigging (company) Standby Rigger/s (up to 2) Construction (company/ies, up to 2) Project Manager Construction Manager/s (up to 2) Construction Coordinator HOD Carpenter Chargehand Carpenter Carpenter/s (up to 14) Improver Carpenter/s (up to 2) Stagehand/s (up to 2) HOD Scenic Art HOD Scenic Artist Chargehand Scenic Artist Scenic Artist/s (up to 5) HOD Sculptor Sculptor/s (up to 3) Painter/s (up to 2) Plasterer/s (up to 2) Construction Buyer/Coordinator Fabricator Scenic Carpenter Scenic Trainee Standby Carpenter HOD Scenic	Costume Designer Assistant Costume Designer Costume Supervisor Costume Design Assistant Costume Coordinator Principal Costume Standby/s (up to 3) Costume Standby Crowd Costume Crowd Costume Supervisor Crowd Costume Standby Costume Artist Costume Maker/s (up to 3) Costume Cutter Costume Seamstress Costume Assistant Costume Trainee/s (up to 2) SAW Principal Costume Trainee SAW Crowd Costume Trainee SAW Costume Trainee/s (up to 2) Hair & Make-up Designer Hair & Make-up Supervisor Crowd Hair & Make-up Supervisor Senior Hair & Make-up Artist/s (up to 2) Personal Make-up Artist to David Tennant Make-up Artist to Ncuti Gatwa Hair & Make-up Artist/s (up to 2) Junior Hair & Make-up Artist/s (up to 2) Hairdresser/s (up to 2) Trainee Hair & Make-up Artist/s (up to 2)

Music	Special and visual effects	Post-production	Executive
Music by The Goblin Song by (credited to “Murray Gold and Russell T Davies”) Sung by Music performed by Three Blind Mice performed by Music conducted by Music orchestrated & conducted by Music mixed by Original theme music by Music Supervisor Assistant Music Supervisor	VFX Producer Special Effects (company) SFX Supervisor SFX Assistant/Prep Supervisor SFX Floor Supervisor Creature FX (company) Creature Design & FX (same company) Creature FX Designer Creature FX Supervisor/s (up to 2) Project Coordinator/s (up to 2) Supervising Sculptor Sculptor Animatronic Engineer Engineer Electronics Prosthetic FX Technician/s (up to 6) Creature FX Technician/s (up to 7) Administration for Millennium FX VFX Supervisor/s (up to 3) Virtual Production Supervisor VFX Art Direction/Concept Artist VFX On Set Supervisor/s (up to 2) VFX Line Producer VFX Coordinator/s (up to 2) Data Wrangler/s (up to 2) VFX Assistant Ireland VFX Co-producer Ireland VFX Trainee/s (up to 4) Creature Design, Concept Art, Previs & VFX Art Direction (company) Creature Design, Concept Art, Motion Graphics, Previs & VFX Art Direction (same company) Concept Art, Motion Graphics, Previs & VFX Art Direction (same company) VFX Art Director CG Supervisor Previs Supervisor Previs / Postvis Artist[s] (up to 3) 3D Generalist Junior Previs Artist Junior 3D Unreal Artist Production Assistant Concept Artist Junior Concept Artist Motion Graphics Designer Head of Production for Painting Practice Creative Director for Painting Practice Visual Effects (company) Titles & Effects (company) Virtual Production (company) Additional VFX (companies, up to 2) Post Production Facility (company) VFX Supervisor 2D Supervisor VFX Associate Producer VFX Production Manager VFX Line Producer Lead Compositor Lead 3D Artist/s (up to 2) Asset Supervisor FX Supervisor CG Supervisor Compositing Supervisor Animation Supervisor Executive Producer Head of Episodic Associate Producer/s (up to 3) VFX Producer/s (up to 2) VFX Coordinator/s (up to 2) VFX Editor/s (up to 2) VFX Lead Head of VFX Production Manager Production Coordinator VFX Production Coordinator Studio Production Director Compositing, Roto & Paint Virtual Production/Unreal (up to 2) Asset Producer Asset Lead Model and Texture Groom Rigging (up to 2) Generalist/s (up to 2) Editor/s (up to 2) Pipeline TD (up to 3) 3D Artist/s (up to 3) DMP Artist Data IO FX Artist/s (up to 6) Animator/s (up to 4) Compositor/s (up to 14) Lighting (up to 3) CFX (up to 2) FX (up to 3) Layout (up to 3) VFX Artist/s (up to 46)	Editor 1st Assistant Editor/s (up to 2) 2nd Assistant Editor Assembly Editor VFX Editor VFX Editor Trainee VFX Temp Editor Colourist/s (up to 2) Online Editor/s (up to 2) Assistant Online Editor Post Production Producer Post Production Supervisor Post Production Coordinator SAW Post Production Trainee Audio Post (company) Sound Designer Re-recording Mixer Dubbing Mixer Dialogue & ADR Editor Crowd ADR (company) Foley Artist Foley Editor Foley Mixer	For Bad Wolf Production Finance Manager Finance Director Senior Business Affairs and Legal Executive Head of Legal and Business Affairs Junior Production Executive Production Executive Head of Production Director of Production Production Executive for BBC Studios Executive Producer for the BBC Commissioning Editor for the BBC

Updated 05:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The length of the lists is misleading, obviously, since no single episode contains all of them. Specifically, the italicised sections of "Special and visual effects" denote lists of crew from external effects companies that were given only in the 60th Anniversary specials – the second one is actually collated from three different companies for the three episodes.

I'm no expert on television crews, so please do correct me on matters of placement and precedence; regarding my departure from Bongo's suggested categories, I think "Script department" is not really big enough to justify on its own, I folded "Sound" into "Camera and lighting" because it's ...camera-adjacent?, and I'm not sure about the name "Movement" but we do need stunts to go somewhere. (I'm almost tempted to propose combining it with music because of the dance number, but that really doesn't make sense from a production standpoint.)

The obvious question at this point is whether there's a way of coding the template that could allow variables to accept lists of any length (comma-separated or similar) as values. If it were possible to program in each new variable with a preset singular and plural but no upper bound on the number of people described by it, there wouldn't have to be a whole manual update to the template every time a 15th carpenter is credited, or what have you; but I'm guessing this is not nearly as easy to do as one might wish? Starkidsoph ☎ 13:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This is incredible work and very useful. I think you make good points about "Script department" and "Sound". To be honest, as I feel that you know the current credits system better than anyone, I'm tempted to just go with your categories. Does anyone have any other thoughts on this? Regarding "Movement", perhaps "Stunts and doubles" might be a good name? Regarding automaitcally accepting lists of any length, I already have the framework to do this in {{CrewCredit}} which I plan to construct the new {{wolf crew}} from in a similar manner to {{BTS crew}}. This allows any number of people to be listed for the majority of credits using variables like |camera=, |camera2=, |camera3=, etc. as far as is needed without manual modification to the template. I plan to improve {{CrewCredit}} sligthly more to make it work with more complex credits. Bongo50 ☎ 17:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh, that's really good news about CrewCredit! (I'm just going to keep updating the table with minor additions from the remaining episodes this season, if that's all right? Let me know if you want me to start a new list instead.) Starkidsoph ☎ 00:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do keep updating the table. It's very useful. Bongo50 ☎ 15:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I've made some improvements to {{CrewCredit}} that will make creating the new template relatively simple from a technical standpoint. I still need to propogate these improvements back into {{BTS crew}}, but that's non-essential for now so I should be able to get to work on {{wolf crew}} as early as tomorrow. Bongo50 ☎ 21:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)