Pre-universe

This article needs a big cleanup.

This page seems to be a bit of a contradictory mess that maybe gives a little too much weight and credence to Christmas' description being what other stories references of "before the universe" means. The Millennial Rites and Persuasion quotes on this page very clearly refers to "another one" and "extinction of their universe", while The Satan Pit says that the Beast was imprisoned "before time and light and space and matter... before this universe was created," when, quote, "no life could have existed". Not before the Time Lords or before Rassilon. Not before time was ordered and structured. Just before TIME. Hence the TARDIS being unable to translate the Krop Tor script. What exactly does Christmas on a Rational Planet say about the Big Bang, or as The Satan Pit puts it, "the cataclysm"?

These problems might be so great that the article's factual accuracy has been compromised. Talk about it here or check the revision history or Manual of Style for more information.

Before Rassilon created the Web of Time the universe was not dictated by logic. This pre-universe, before the Time Lords, was ruled by magic and chaos. (PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet)

By the Doctor's time, those who knew about the universe before it was made logically assumed that it was the universe that came before N-Space; according to some accounts, it was actually N-Space before history was created. When the universe was rationalised, many powerful species fled into other realities, many found their way back into N-Space and some (such as the Great Old Ones) still followed the rules of the pre-Time Lord universe, giving them god-like powers. Thus, some of the most powerful beings in existence came from before Rassilon created a structure for time, making them older even than time itself. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire, Millennial Rites, Christmas on a Rational Planet)

Another account contradicted this. the Beast, who purportedly came from this time, stated his origins were from the time before N-Space "came into existence" and before "the cataclysm". The Tenth Doctor disbelieved this, saying, "No life could have existed back then." (TV: The Satan Pit)

River Song noted a theory for the SporeShips' origin, that they were leftover weapons from the war that wiped out the previous universe. (AUDIO: Signs)

Characteristics

The physics of this pre-Rassilon universe were different from the post-Rassilon universe. Magic was a powerful force here, and science did not exist. Before the Web of Time the universe was never rationalised, and thus, science never worked, and magic always did. (PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet)

The Doctor described the pre-universe to Anne Travers.

Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space.Sixth Doctor

Because of new laws like the speed of light or the charge of the electron, the Great Old Ones found they had great power and became terrible gods. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire) The Shepherd and Shepherdess escaped the "extinction of their universe" (presumably the destruction of the everything illogical that occurred when time was mapped by Rassilon) and arrived in N-space where their appearance became transparent. They moved without touching the ground and their hair and nails grew longer because they were dying in the new reality. (AUDIO: Persuasion)

Natives

Amongst the races that claimed to be older than the universe itself were the Great Old Ones such as Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire, Millennial Rites) On many planets, these beings became part of the legends and religions. The Great Old Ones were worshipped by the first intelligent species to evolve on Earth - the Silurians. (PROSE: All-Consuming Fire) It is unclear whether the Great Old Ones were a single species, or merely a term to describe any unimaginably powerful being that had escaped the pre-universe into ours.

The Beast claimed to have originated before the universe. He said was imprisoned by the Disciples of the Light deep beneath Krop Tor "before time... before time and light and space and matter, before the cataclysm, before this universe came into existence", likely placing both in that time. The Tenth Doctor believed that "no life could have existed back then." The Doctor wondered if the idea for all Satan-like figures in the mythology of "a million worlds", including that of Earth, Draconia, Vel Consadine, Dæmos, and the Kaleds' God of War, had maybe bled through as a thought in the back of "every sentient mind". The Beast himself claimed to be the Devil of "all" religions, which included the Arkiphets, Quoldonity, Christianity, Pash Pash, New Judaism, San Klah and the Church of the Tin Vagabond. (TV: The Satan Pit)

The Ancient Lights were speculated by Luke Smith to have come from the pre-universe. (TV: Secrets of the Stars)

Syriath, an entity who could raise the dead, was said by Jack Harkness to have been trapped within the Rift since before time. (AUDIO: The House of the Dead)

The Dark was said to have been formed from the remains of the void before the Big Bang. (PROSE: Fear of the Dark)

Entropy Sirens were said to have existed before the universe. (AUDIO: The Entropy Composition)

Knowledge

Knowledge of this universe was a closely guarded secret. The Sixth Doctor only knew about it as a result of his connection to the Matrix during his time as Lord President. (PROSE: Millennial Rites, TV: The Invasion of Time) During an encounter with the Carnival Queen the Seventh Doctor learned that the Time Lords had misinterpreted their knowledge of the pre-universe. (PROSE: Christmas on a Rational Planet) When the Beast claimed to have existed before the universe, the Tenth Doctor had trouble accepting the claim, as he knew the pre-universe was not a different universe. (TV: The Satan Pit)