Talk:Dr Black (short story)

The Curator?

So I decided to check my copy for this debate and, just for reference, here's the full sentence (yes, just the one) which the Curator is involved in.

I am indebted to my colleague, the curator of the National Gallery, for updating me as to its full title, which is Gallifrey Falls No More (Until the Next Time).Henry Black

This should allow a good discussion as to whether this counts as an appearance for the Curator. It was mentioned at Thread:141930 that there should be a line in terms of first person storytelling, but obviously that thread has yet to reach a conclusion. I'd argue that this is well on the side of "not an appearance" but I'm unsure how to handle this when that thread isn't even nearly at completion, and won't be for some time. Danochy ☎ 22:46, November 2, 2020 (UTC)

Don’t think that this should count as an appearance. He was only mentioned, and in a single sentence. PoolsideJazz ☎ 22:48, November 2, 2020 (UTC)

Gonna echo that. I'd say that's a mention. Not an appearance, as the character is not there in the story and it's not a flashback. It's well within the framing device, and the story does not stray from its main setting to tell the story of this interaction with the Curator.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 22:58, November 2, 2020 (UTC)

[edit conflict]

@Danochy, I appreciate you taking this to the talk page! And it is doubly appreciated that you went back to the source and provided the original quote.

Now, personally I would err on the side of calling this an appearance, but in the interest of transparency, the sentence was a little more positive in my memory than it actually is. There is, as you say, ample room for debate. But it's not clear-cut in either direction. For example, I would call m'lord's attention to the fact that the illustration of the story depicts Black standing by the Gallifrey painting. This could be taken as suggesting the anecdote about the Curator showing to him is meant to be an essential element of the "plot" (such as it is). Also, @PoolsideJazz, length of appearance is immaterial. A two-second cameo in a TV story is still an appearance; by the same token a one-line cameo in a short story is also an appearance, if we establish that line to be narrative in nature, rather than merely an offhand mention that's not actually part of the plot.

However, as you also say yourself it is hard to have that debate when Thread:141930 has yet to conclude. I would say T:BOUND applies: however we currently list appearances on a given story page should not be altered based on such concerns as "when does first-person narration start counting?" until we have set clear standards.

Ergo, as the page Dr Black was created with the understanding that it did feature "The Curator", we should stick with that until Thread:141930. But conversely, if even a very similar quote in another story has not, thus far, been treated as an appearance on that story's page, then neither should that state of affairs be altered.

Therefore, Dr Black’s appearances list isn't to be edited until further notice. But let none of this deter users from posting more thoughts and/or evidence and/or precedents on this talk page. They might come in handy later. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 22:54, November 2, 2020 (UTC)

I'll defer to my fellow admin who's read the story for now, and come back to this later.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 23:03, November 2, 2020 (UTC)

There’s no more evidence though? There was a single sentence mentioning the National Gallery’s Curator (potentially not even the same one, perhaps the gallery got another Curator?). The character did not appear outside this mention. PoolsideJazz ☎ 23:08, November 2, 2020 (UTC)

Can I just say that dear lord we need to get on DPLForums as soon as possible? Najawin ☎ 23:29, November 2, 2020 (UTC)