Talk:Kiev

Dubious page move

A non-admin moved this page from "Keiv" to "Kyiv", to reflect the recent real world push to adopt that name. Whilst I understand how politically sensitive this is, it's still the case that no DW source has used this name, so it really should be moved back. The page itself compares it to deadnaming a trans person, but, even leaving aside how dubious that comparison is (and apples and oranges doesn't even begin to cover it), we don't actually have a policy in this area as the user has implied. Our deadnames policy applies to REAL WORLD PRODUCTION CREW. We don't actually have a policy for in-universe uses of former names for real world entities, as far as I know. In the absence of one, I believe we should continue to enforce the regular T:NO RW. Maybe we can discuss this when the forums are back, but for now I think policy would have this go back to "Kiev". Plus yeah as I said the "deadname" companion is VERY dubious to say the least. NightmareofEden ☎ 18:56, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't agree with the deadnaming comparison either. As far as I'm concerned, if there's a version of it ever pronounced as "Kyiv" as opposed to "Kiev", I'd support the change, even if technically there's no PROSE evidence for that. I'd suggest as precedent Taiwanese girl (Children of Earth: Day One). But that's 100% me and I fully admit it's likely controversial. Najawin ☎ 04:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

While the comparison to deadnaming may not have been the best way to put it, I did it because a. for the similarity of the situations, and b. because there isn't a word yet for continuing to use a name despite an identity-based change of name, outside of deadnaming which is tied to gender identity specifically. I hope you can understand where I was coming from, and that I didn't mean to make a tactless comparison.

However, this I strongly disagree with the current situation at hand; the scope of my issues do extend past just the naming of this page, as I feel continuing to name something by a disused name in unacceptable in all circumstances, for a plethora of reasons. Though, given the objection to my actions initially (moving the pages to the modern names which could be interpreted as a violation of T:NO RW, although I felt the circumstances were extenuating), I believe it is necessary to be brought to the Forums when they return, which I will be doing so. I am sure everyone here can understand why I consider this to be the best course of action.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

14:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Thinking about it, this WIki doesn't even have a policy on deadnaming... T:NO RW makes no mention of it, nor are there any other policy pages that do. Currently, we have taken steps so as to not deadname individuals on real world pages, but we have no policy on in-universe pages.

For example, let's say a story mentioned Elliot Page prior to his transistion in 2020; the story, given its release date, would use his deadname. Of course any rational person would create his page at [[Elliot Page]], but this technically breaks T:NO RW. While Fandom's global policies would overturn this — as they should — it doesn't sit right with me that our policies aren't written to accomodate the necessary exceptions.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

15:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)