Talk:The Master

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Please note that, due to the templates set up to connect to specific sections of The Master, headings should not be changed.

The following templates exist for the different incarnations of the Master:

• Template:Delgado
• Template:Ainley
• Template:Roberts
• Template:Jacobi
• Template:Simm
• Template:Fallen
• Template:Macqueen
• Template:Gomez
• Template:Pratt
• Template:Dreyfus
• Template:Dhawan
• Template:Tipple
• Template:Titan
• Template:McKee
• Template:Pryce
• Template:Merlin

The way we'll now connect to this page is to write something like this:

The [[Fourth Doctor]] faced his final challenge: a confrontation with {{Ainley}} atop the [[radio telescope]]. ([[TV]]: ''[[Logopolis (TV story)|]]'')

which yields:

The Fourth Doctor faced his final challenge: a confrontation with the Tremas Master atop the radio telescope. (TV: Logopolis)

If you need to make the the capitalised, then type {{Ainley|c}}. These links, be they {{delgado}}, {{Ainley}} or whoever will go directly to the section of this article dealing with that version of the character.

The Doctor/Master

The Power of the Doctor raised a pretty big question, how should we cover the Doctor/Master incarnation?

Perhaps as a subsection of the Thirteenth Doctor or as a subsection of the Spy Master?

In my opinion this incarnation deserves a page of its own as it was a regeneration in its own right. There were gaps in this character's story left throughout the episode that could lead to potential stories being told that wouldn't involve Thirteen or the original Master (such as when he was causing chaos in the universe with Yaz, or when Yaz abandoned him) and therefore wouldn't make sense to be placed on either's page.

If this character does receive their own page I think that they should be considered an incarnation of both the Doctor and the Master, with him being labeled under more ambiguous on the incarnations of the Doctor template similar to the Meta-Crisis. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Mh, I'm not sure. Consciousness-wise he's clearly a continuation of the Master, so if we cover him anywhere, it should definitely principally be at the Spy Master just like we cover most of the Roberts Master's exploits on the Master's page, not at Bruce (Doctor Who). This is the Master body-surfing; we've seen this before. As a "the Master in a stolen body", he currently cannot get his own page any more than any of the other possessed-Masters can. But it's a fair question whether he'll get his own page when we do the eventual Master split, and whether, as such, he should get his own heading vs. being a subheading of "As the Spy Master". I'm leading towards the latter even there, though, given that he reverts back to being the original Dhawan in the end and it's always the same actor…

Whether we want to link to him somewhere in {{doctors}} is a fair point too. I think maybe yes. But under what name? That's the question.Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The page name that makes the most sense to me is The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor) as literally the whole point of the plot was the Master becoming the Doctor (with a possible redirect from The Master (The Power of the Doctor). It was still the Doctor's body and this incarnation repeatedly named himself the Doctor. I also think that there were hints of the Doctor deep inside the Master which is why he wanted to keep Yaz around. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Just seen that The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor) is currently being used for the Fourteenth Doctor. I don't particularly think that page needs the redirect and it would better fit this character's page. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 21:57, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Corrie, I agree that this approach is best. Seeing as it's an unused redirect, I think you should feel free to overwrite it. – n8 (☎) 22:29, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I've no strong feelings on what to call the current character we're discussing, being an American who has not yet seen the episode. But I agree that as of yet the redirect is not needed imo. It might eventually come to be the case that in retrospect that [certain actor who shall remain nameless] was really the 14th Doctor all along and Tennant is just a weird glitch and RtD was messing with us, so we should then rename things. But we can cross that bridge when we come to it. I'm in the "go ahead and overwrite" camp. Najawin ☎ 22:32, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I think it deserves a page - it's an incarnation of the Doctor, and the Master can't very well be placed under category:Incarnations of the Doctor. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 22:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey, so someone went and created The Master Doctor. I've now deleted it again, because this discussion is ongoing, T:BOUND is a thing, and anyway that's an unjustified conjectural title. Please do not attempt to create such a page until we're all agreed.

Once again I restate: insofar as the "Dhawan Doctor" is the Master possessing someone, he cannot, by policy, get his own page currently any more than the Tremas Master or the Bruce Master. Regardless of what we decide we want to do in the abstract. He cannot. We're not allowed. The most this debate could conclude is that we give him his own "main heading" on par with other incarnations of the Master, and pencil him off for splitting when we do properly split all the Masters. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:40, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The page deletion seems to be a typical example of one rule for one. A discussion was raised about the Fourteenth Doctor prior to that page being created but it wasn't deleted. Anyway, I created the page as The Master Doctor before seeing NB and Najawin's support for The Doctor (The Power of the Doctor). In my opinion the former would definetly be my preferred option. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That discussion was concluded, by me, whereupon I created the page. The precedent there is overwhelming. We should call the new, numbered, TV Doctor what the BBC Who website calls them. Obviously we should. In contrast, as I said, even if the present talk page discussion comes to a consensus that he should be treated as his own thing, we cannot implement it. We cannot have a separate page about him right here and now. Not until we have Forums and split off all the other Masters. There is no actual policy-compliant way that this debate could authorise this page's creation currently. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 22:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Scrooge is technically correct. Master incarnations can't have their own pages as a matter of policy at this point. I actually wrote out my comment sans the last sentence and then modified it due to an edit conflict with Nate's, reading his. I didn't read Scrooge's. That's my bad. Najawin ☎ 22:49, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

To be fair, there's no rule stating an incarnation of the individual most commonly known as "the Doctor" who happens to look and act like the Master can't have their own page. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 22:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The loophole is quite blatantly here. This is not an incarnation of the Master. It is not a possession like the Tremas Master or the Bruce Master. This is far more a Christine Summerfield situation where the Doctor's body, or a clone of Chris Cwej in Christine's case, is implanted with the personality/memories of someone else. It is the Doctor, but with the thoughts and personality of the Master. That is the whole point. She wasn't possessed, she literally regenerated into a new evil counterpart with the Master's likeness.

As it is an incarnation of the Doctor not the Master there is no policy preventing us from giving them a page. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 22:55, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Mh. This is clever, but I really don't think this is correct. The Master's "soul" is very much being transferred from his original body into the regenerated Doctor here; and is then thrown back into his original one. Contrast Christine Summerfield who just existed concurrently with the Blonde Girl. It's the Master possessing an incarnation of the Doctor who looked like Dhawan, and… I guess you could argue the "Dhawan Doctor" whom we never really met because he was possessed by the Master the whole time could kind of deserve coverage as an incarnation of the Doctor in that sense, but his actions aren't his own. The biography stuff is the Master's. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:05, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose it is a bit of an edge case, but we need him under "Incarnations of the Doctor", goddammit! Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:07, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Eh, even good categories can be removed, after all: "the big thing to understand about categories is that they are essentially organisational tools, not genuine content". If the only thing that it's causing problems here is the presence or lack of a single category, then let it be said: we don't need him under a category. So long as the content can be added to a page (and it can and is more logically placed on this - or any Spy Master page), we're just fine. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Scrooge, I think you have misinterpreted the episode.

If the Master was simply body-swapping, what would be the need for the whole forced regeneration? Cassandra did it to the Doctor with a simple psychograft. The Master transferred his entire personality and memories into the Doctor's newly regenerated form (leaving himself, for want of another word, a vegetable). The Master Doctor wasn't an incarnation of the Master, he was an incarnation of the Doctor with the Master's personality and memories (its the whole point of the scheme).

There was literally no possession in the episode, no mention of it, no nothing.DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:13, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's not the only reason, there's also him physically, you know, being an incarnation of the Doctor - it's just a reason. (response to Scrooge's prior comment) Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:14, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

User:DrWHOCorrieFan: "Transferring his entire personality and consciousness into the Doctor" is what I mean by "possession". I really don't understand what you're saying. We seem to be describing the same sequence of events: the Doctor force-regenerated the Doctor into a Sacha Dhawan body, then transferred his own soul into (i.e. possessed) that newly-regenerated body. So the "Master Doctor" is the spirit of the real Master going around possessing the body of the Doctor who's been force-regenerated to look like the Master. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:16, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Whatever subjective opinions any of us may have regarding "continuity of consciousness" or some such, looking at the language used in the episode, it's very clear that there is nothing about the character being a "regeneration/incarnation of the Master", and nothing about the character being "possession by the Master". As literally stated in the transcript, he is an incarnation of the Doctor. There's no reason for him not to be treated as such. – n8 (☎) 23:17, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing "subjective" about the continuity-of-consciousness thing. As DrWHOCorrieFan acknowledged, we are dealing with the Master temporarily transferring his essence into the Dhawan-Doctor, and then it being transferred back out again. There is never any doubt in dialogue that the character is the Master. Again, this feels a lot like wanting to cover information about Ainley's Master on Tremas. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:20, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

"Forced regeneration, Doctor. To force you... to regenerate... into me."

To me, at least, this very much reads as "forcing the Doctor to regenerate into this very individual/the Spy Master", not just "forcing the Doctor to regenerate into a body that looks like the Spy Master and then he goes into that body". Whatever the in-universe mechanics of it are, the Master "took over" the Doctor's body/lifespan, but very much kept on being himself for all intents and purposes.

I can't see the benefit of moving into a separate page (again, with the exception of adding a shiny category - which as presented above, is not and should not be the priority here. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:24, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I have the perfect comparison as to what happened in this episode; in Evolution of the Daleks the Doctor put himself in the way of the gamma strike and as such his personality was implanted into the Dalek-Human hybrids. This is exactly what happened here - the Master caused the Doctor to regenerate so that he could implant his personality and memories into the renewed body. If it was just a possession, why would there be a need for the entire forced regeneration? He'd have just possessed her, surely?

This was an evil incarnation of the Doctor with the Master's personality. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:29, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

By your logic @OncomingStorm12th every time a Cyberman states "you shall become like me" or "you shall become like us" they literally mean that they will physically become that exact Cyberman. The Master telling the Doctor he will force him "to regenerate... into me" is just him saying that he will share his personality and ideals, not that he will physically be him. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:34, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll be honest, this all reads very much as malicious compliance. The Master has taken over the Doctor's body, and left his old body behind AND he kept his face. This is no different from the series of Decayed Masters from Mastermind (audio story). It's not like the old body was still up and moving as its own individual entity, it was a husk. This is a classic case of body possession.

Say, in the world where we've finally separated all of the incarnations and Sacha Dhawan's Master is situated at Spy Master: Would it really be of use to have a separate page for the period of this story where he's taken over the Doctor's body? How would that help? We'd just have two different pages where the same information is explained TWICE. The Master ends up being forced back into his old body at the end, so the end of the story would still have to be explained on Spy Master and not the new page. What should we do when covering Power of the Doctor (TV story)? Cover it in a sentence, hyperlink over to a new page for another two sentences, and then cover the ending back on Spy Master?

In fact, we already have an example of this happening in a movie-length story: The Master (very briefly) takes over the Doctor's body in the TV Movie. We don't have a separate page for the Eric Roberts Doctor and the Paul McGann Master --and at least there they have different actors from their predecessors. To cover the Master's time occupying the Doctor's body, while still having the face of Sacha Dhawan and still having the memories and personality of the Sacha Dhawan Master and NONE of the Doctor's memories or personality, would be (1) disingenuous and (2) actively hostile to readers. I am strongly opposed to any coverage of the Master's stint in the Doctor's body on any location other than The Master or the proverbial Spy Master. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 23:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Scrooge, OS12th and NoNotTheMemes here. The Dhawan-Doctor is for all intents and purposes the Master. He's using the Doctor's body as a cruel joke, and shouldn't be considered a separate individual. Also, Corrie, your analogy makes no sense, because the Dalek hybrids aren't all incarnations of the Doctor! Chubby Potato ☎ 23:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

And to counter the notion that this is "an evil incarnation of the Doctor with the Master's personality" --notice how the Master's original body is lying limp in the tube? And how when the "Master Doctor" turns back into Whittaker, his essence returns back into the original body? And how the original body goes on and remembers all of that activity? It's very evident that this was fundamentally a body possession. It's written that way, it's performed that way. To characterize it otherwise is irresponsible. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 23:40, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

...And as such, they are a unique incarnation who never truly got to express their own personality or make their own choices - still a new incarnation with a forced appearance. Cookieboy 2005 ☎ 23:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Nobody on the opposing side seems to be able to answer what the whole point of the regeneration scheme was if it was simply a possession? The Master transferred his memories/personality into the new Doctor - sacrificing himself - in order to make that incarnation an evil duplicate of himself thus tarnishing the Doctor's reputation. The Master was left as a husk as a result, lying in the tube, because he now had literally no essence as he'd transferred it to the new incarnation of the Doctor. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:46, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

But "the Master" is the essence. That's what 'essence' means. We don't care about the meat! Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 23:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I interpreted it that he took the Thirteenth Doctor's body, not the Doctor's body, if that makes sense.. Hence why she hasn't crossed the boundary and meets the Guardians of the Edge. As I see it Dhawan-Doctor is both the Master and 13, but not a different incarnation. Chubby Potato ☎ 23:50, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Chubby Potato so what would be the whole point of the regeneration and degeneration if it was the Thirteenth Doctor's body?

The Master took over people in The End of Time nobody here is arguing that there should be a page for Sylvia Master or Sean Master, absolutely not. Because that was stated to be the Master possessing their bodies. This plot was the complete opposite and the Master Doctor was the Doctor with only the Master's personality/memories. That is literally the entire purpose of the scheme. DrWHOCorrieFan ☎ 23:53, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

That regeneration was the vessel through which he took over her body. I don't really see him as an "incarnation of the Doctor" but that's not to say I'd be opposed to treating it that way since there is a regeneration. But also, I think the return to Thirteen is just that, a degeneration (or retro-regeneration if you prefer) and not something like… well, what we see at the end of the episode. Chubby Potato ☎ 00:03, 24 October 2022 (UTC)