Talk:Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration

Merge

This page's presence was predicated on its existence being re-litigated after the Master-split. And, as I'm sure we're all aware, the Master-split has come and went. The primary arguments for coverage on Spy Master was that it (1) followed the Wiki's "continuity-of-consciousness" precedent for coverage and (2) all information that would be covered on an additional page would have to be covered on Spy Master as well. Both of these arguments remain true. The first point was stated ad infinitem on the previous discussion and I will not re-explain it unless that is something others wish of me. The second point has proven to be even more true than I expected, as all of the information covered on this page is covered better on Spy Master and Thirteenth Doctor. What benefit is there in having a second page that merely duplicates coverage that is on another page? NoNotTheMemes ☎ 21:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, as I was then. Najawin ☎ 21:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

The script makes it super clear that “The Master-Doctor” is a distinct being from both the Doctor and the Master. Dhawan’s role changes in the script. Point is. If Chibnall considers them distinct enough from the Master and the Doctor then the wiki should. I’d say “The Master-Doctor” should get its own page with Chibnall’s script name. The fact is it’s a hybrid of the two. Which should be coveted separately. It’s easy to say “he just acts like the Master though”. True he does, but I’d argue that’s a shortcoming of the story rather than proof it wasn’t Chibnall’s intention for it to be a separate being. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.108.82.15 (talk • contribs) .

We do not use details in the script to establish in-universe details. It's very much a violation of policy. Hence, why, for instance, we haven't said that Rasputin is The Master, rather than The Master pretending to be Rasputin. Najawin ☎ 23:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

While we do not use scripts to establish in-universe details, the script does not make it "super clear" --in fact, the script goes back and forth between referring to the "Master-Doctor" as "The Master-Doctor" and "The Master" (per example though not limited to, pages 59, 60, 73, 80, 83). Notably, it never refers to him as "Doctor" but that's neither here nor there. Here's probably the most clear cut line "And as the Master looks -- his own Rasputin form is in the other regeneration cylinder -- energy flooding back to the husk --" Here, the script very clearly reiterates that this "Master-Doctor" is the Master and that his true body is the "Rasputin form". If we are to take the script as a means of ascertaining in-universe information, it is on the side of them being the same character. After all, Chris Chibnall's script says that the Rasputin-Master is the Master-Doctor's true form. NoNotTheMemes ☎ 01:41, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, the TPotD differs from the televised story in many little ways. It feels like an earlier draft of the script TBH.

EPSILON^🔎 |📯|📂|📦|📝

23:31, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I still think “the Master-Doctor” should get a separate page as at very least a hybrid. It’s still the Doctor having regenerated into the Master who sees themself as the Doctor. Others call them the Master because he’s not truly the Doctor. Point is it’s a hybrid situation at bare minimum. It’s still the third incarnation of the Doctor’s second regeneration cycle, before being reverted. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.108.82.15 (talk • contribs) .

please use the four tildes ~~~~ when commenting. Danniesen ☎ 11:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

For the record, I agree with 81.108.82.15 about The Master-Doctor. I increasingly regret T:MERGE's recent elevation of the oft-cited "continuity of consciousness" rule of thumb to outright rule status, since the real main question to ask is, "Would readers be best served by covering these two versions of a character on the same page or different pages?" Given the fact that even the script saw fit to differentiate between the Spy Master and the Master-Doctor, I think we would do well to do the same: even if we did unnecessarily take a metaphysics of identity for granted and said the Master-Doctor was the Spy Master, we have plenty of pages for clearly-defined identities assumed by the Master, like Harold Saxon and Razor, so there's no reason we shouldn't have a page called The Master-Doctor.

But this page isn't The Master-Doctor. It isn't a page about an incarnation at all. It's about the Thirteenth Doctor's forced regeneration, its immediate effects, and its reversal. This page has a right to exist by virtue of T:WIKIFY, and while I haven't gotten around to it yet, I also look forward to creating pages for Romana I's regeneration, Third Doctor's regeneration, and so on. If we were to have another discussion about "The Master-Doctor" on some other talk page or in the forums, either outcome wouldn't mean this page should be changed. But there's no reason for the discussion to happen here. – n8 (☎) 13:49, 16 March 2023 (UTC)