Howling:Questions from Season Five: Difference between revisions
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As for the spacesuit, basically it's a stable timeloop, remember they already know that River in the spacesuit "kills" the Doctor there "before" the Doctor had actually went there, so they actually got their plan from knowledge of the fixed point and thus went through the effort to create the fixed point because they had to, in order to fulfill the fixed point. [[User:The Light6|The Light6]] <sup>[[User talk:The Light6|talk to me]]</sup> 04:28, November 2, 2011 (UTC) | As for the spacesuit, basically it's a stable timeloop, remember they already know that River in the spacesuit "kills" the Doctor there "before" the Doctor had actually went there, so they actually got their plan from knowledge of the fixed point and thus went through the effort to create the fixed point because they had to, in order to fulfill the fixed point. [[User:The Light6|The Light6]] <sup>[[User talk:The Light6|talk to me]]</sup> 04:28, November 2, 2011 (UTC) | ||
Not exactly. Remember, the Doctor's supposed death wasn't a natural fixed point in time like Pompeii or Bowie Base One. Lake Silencio on April 22 2011 at 5:02 PM was already a still point in time (whatever the hell that means) which made it possible for the Silence to deliberately turn it into a fixed point. That means that before they created the fixed point it wasn't a fixed point and didn't necessarily have to be fulfilled. Besides, if they couldn't even tell the difference between the Doctor and the Teselecta, how would they have known that it was River in the space suit. I guess they piicked the location because it was a still point, and then decided that as long as they were on the beach it would be awesome to have an assassin come out from the water in a space suit. Of course, we still don't know why young Melody had to be in the space suit, or why she regenerated.[[User:Icecreamdif|Icecreamdif]] <sup>[[User talk:Icecreamdif|talk to me]]</sup> 21:50, November 2, 2011 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 21:50, 2 November 2011
As much as I have liked the recent story arcs, I am still a little confused about a handful of points. I guess the writers will expand on them as further seasons allow, but I wanted to make sure I was not missing something.
Who is the “silence will fall” voice and what is there relationship to the The Silence? – At the time I thought this to be a threat, and the tone of the voice fitted that (the threat being the silence at the end of the universe). But knowing the silence must fall is a prophecy; it does not make sense any more.
Who visited Amy’s house the night before her wedding? Was it the speaker of “silence will fall”, or was it the Silence? Why were they there? To carry out the attack on the Tardis, or to check on Melody Pond (would she be there in this version of reality?)
Whilst they were at it, why didn’t they take revenge on River for her failure to kill the doctor? They had her in the Tardis and could have killed her.
The Silence appear to be rooted in this universe, so the plan to destroy it with the cracks and to unite the doctors enemies to stop it seems high risk (whether it was the Silence, or their mysterious ally.)
I am also confused with the clerics. In Crash of the Byzantium they seem to want the help of the doctor and consider him an ally. Yet earlier in the story line for them, they are fighting the Doctor in A Good Man Goes to War.
[Unsigned to this point]
"Who visited Amy’s house the night before her wedding?" The burn patterns seen by River were about the right size and shape for Daleks but it's never been definitively revealed what made them.
"why didn’t they take revenge on River...?" This one, at least, has a reasonable answer. River's imprisonment seems to be part of a scheme to conceal the fact that the Doctor wasn't killed. It may be that revenge wasn't sought because the villains didn't know there was something to take revenge for. Also, River was in the TARDIS when whoever blew it up did so but the TARDIS protected her by putting her into a time loop. (The Doctor explained that in The Big Bang.) If it hadn't been for that protection, the explosion would have killed her. Those who caused the explosion may not have known how well the TARDIS could protect her occupants and would, therefore, have assumed that River would die.
"The Silence appear to be rooted in this universe..." The Alliance obviously didn't know what they were doing. They thought the Doctor was going to destroy the universe and imprisoned him in the Pandorica to prevent that. The result was that he was unable to prevent the TARDIS explosion, so the action of the Alliance led to the very thing it was intended to prevent. In Let's Kill Hitler, it seemed to be implied that the Silence was trying to kill the Doctor to stop him answering the question that would cause silence to fall. Speculation: The apparent illogic of what's been going on may be the result of the Silence having got hold of the wrong end of the stick (again). They're convinced that the Doctor is the source of the danger when, in fact, the danger is caused by their attempts to get rid of him. So far, I can only speculate about this because we still don't have enough facts -- Series 6 didn't answer all the outstanding questions.
"I am also confused with the clerics." You're not alone. The best guess I can make is that the clerics in A Good Man Goes to War were (unknown to themselves) under the control of the Silence, while those in The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone (Crash of the Byzantium) were not. One thing I noticed when watching The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone was that Octavian implied that some people did not regard River's (supposed) victim as a hero, although Octavian himself did: "a hero to many" but not to everyone. In A Good Man Goes to War, it was obvious that several people among those gathered to fight the Doctor admired him, meaning that opinion within the Church was divided.
"Who is the “silence will fall” voice and what is there relationship to the The Silence?" I've left this to last because it seems the most important question. It's also still unanswered. The voice (heard in the TARDIS just before the explosion) definitely wasn't the voice of the Silence aliens we met in Series 6. Maybe it's their real leader. Maybe it's their real enemy. Maybe it's both and they're being manipulated into bringing about the outcome they're trying to avoid. At the moment, the only firm conclusion I can come to is: Insufficient data. --89.240.242.138 23:14, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
A good set of answers and speculations, 89. I would add that perhaps the Church isn't as monolithic as some seem to think. Octavian calls the Doctor "A hero to many" and believes River has killed the Doctor..... and apparently thinks maybe he knows before his death and maybe he doesn't.... and since he's here he hasn't died yet, so since he'll survive, so will we. I expect he's befuddled by the issues of time travel and the semi-mythical status of the Doctor. We are not dealing with just the facts -- as portrayed on the tv show and so forth, which proceeds in a fairly linear progression from the Doctor's viewpoint, after all. After Octavian's death in Flesh and Stone I have been expecting to see him twenty years earlier, a raw Second Verger, who winds up telling the Doctor "I think you've seen me at my worst." Maybe in the Gamma Forests. Boblipton talk to me 01:28, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that destroying the TARDIS was a first attempt at killing the Doctor by the Silence. They wanted to stop him from answering the Question (which would lead to nothing but silence) and in doing so, created a huge explosion that the Doctor would be blamed for, and thus the Alliance would imprison him. The total event collapse would still occur, so the Alliance would have failed, but the Doctor wouldn't be able to visit Trenzalore and answer the Question because he'd be trapped inside the Pandorica. The Doctor escaped and stopped the total event collapse, so the Silence tried again, this time by killing him, and that's where Amy and Demons Run and River and the Space Race come in. The bit I don't get is that the Silence seem to be trying to kill the Doctor to prevent the untold horrors that would happen when he answered the Question. In order to stop 'silence' (presumably some sort of apocalypse) the Silence attempt to destroy the universe which seems a tad bit hypocritical. I'm sure it will be discovered eventually, I just think the Doctor should have said something like "River was the Silence's second attempt to stop me. The first must have been the Pandorica, creating a total event collapse and blaming it on me so the people of the universe would unite and imprison me." And then say that, I don't know, the Silence live in a bubble universe that wouldn't have been effected by the TARDIS apocalypse but would've been effected by the Question apocalypse. The preceding comment was made by Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 10:43, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
I also think the Spacesuit thing's a bit weird. So the Silence spent 40000 years manipulating humankind into creating a spacesuit, which they needed to trap River. Two questions spring to mind:
1) Why does it have to be a spacesuit, why can't it just be some other suit.
2)If they know how to build it, why not just do that rather than wasting an incredibly long amount of time getting someone else to do it.
Maybe the Silence just like long and elaborate schemes that make no sense, or maybe Steven Moffat has a trick up his sleeve. I hope for the latter but fear for the former. Something tells me there might not be any further mention of the TARDIS exploding or spacesuits... The preceding comment was made by Bigredrabbit (talk to me) 10:43, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
They're neurotic. Boblipton talk to me 11:53, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the silence falling that comes from the question being answered is somehow even worse than the total event collapse. As for the space suit, that's not even as over complicated as their plan seems ot be. If they need someone to just shoot the Doctor a couple of times, then why did it have to be a Time Lord? Couldn't they have picked any random person off the street, stuck them in a space suit, and had them shoot the Doctor a few times. HOpefully, there will be some kind of answer in the next season.Icecreamdif talk to me 20:16, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
Boblipton: Of course they're neurotic. You'd be neurotic, too, if everyone forgot you the moment they looked away!
Seriously, though:
It does seem pretty unlikely that the Silence would devote 40, 000 years (probably longer since our ancestors acquired fire) to developing a spacesuit. Given the age of some of the races in the DW universe, they could have got a spacesuit 40, 000 years ago, if they'd wanted one then. My take on this isn't that they started manipulating humanity in order to get a spacesuit but that they were manipulating humanity, anyway, to expand their unwitting labour force, then decided to have the spacesuit made on Earth (where they were already established) because that fitted their plans. Even if they didn't know about the "fixed point in time", the Doctor visits Earth more frequently than any other planet, so it's the obvious place to lay a trap for him. He associates with humans more than with any other species, so using humans as their catspaws is also obvious. If the Silence were established on Earth, anyway, they'd only need to pick a time when humanity was within striking distance of being able to make a spacesuit.
Why a spacesuit? Basically, they wanted some kind of life-support suit. A diving suit would serve that function but a diving suit isn't bulletproof and a spacesuit (visor excepted) is. NASA's suits are covered in kevlar to protect against micrometeoroids, which have about the same kinetic energy as rifle bullets, concentrated in a far smaller impact area. Someone in a spacesuit is going to be very difficult to stop at short notice. A person in a diving suit emerging from a body of water might be unexpected but wouldn't have anywhere near the same surprise factor as a person in a spacesuit emerging from a body of water. Instead of trying to do something about it immediately, any witnesses could be expected to waste vital time wondering, "What the hell is going on?"
Having allowed for all that, though, there's still plenty that doesn't seem to make sense and the various schemes do seem severely overelaborate. As Icecreamdif says, if all they needed was for someone to shoot the Doctor, they could have found plenty of willing hitmen who'd have done it for a little money -- and probably several who'd have done it for free. I, too, hope SM has a trick up his sleeve that will eventually make sense of why the Silence have gone about things the way they have, rather than Keep(ing) It Simple, Stupid! --2.101.53.95 20:47, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
"Maybe the silence falling that comes from the question being answered is somehow even worse than the total event collapse." — Icecreamdif
This is what I thought too, however I also considered that perhaps the Silence simply considers silence falling to be worse than the destruction of the universe, while we might consider the destruction of the universe worse, basically a case of Blue and Orange Morality. Basically they believe anything is better than the question being answered, remember they also kept trying to kill the Doctor in the collapsed!timeline in Wedding of River Song even though that would leave the Doctor dead but the timeline still collapsed.
As for the marks outside of Amy's house the night before her wedding, while it wasn't confirmed so-to-speak (otherwise it wouldn't be brought up) but I'm fairly sure it was supposed to be one of the members of the Alliance there to get the physic imprint off her house to create the Autons (perhaps even a probe from the Nestene itself).
As for the spacesuit, basically it's a stable timeloop, remember they already know that River in the spacesuit "kills" the Doctor there "before" the Doctor had actually went there, so they actually got their plan from knowledge of the fixed point and thus went through the effort to create the fixed point because they had to, in order to fulfill the fixed point. The Light6 talk to me 04:28, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
Not exactly. Remember, the Doctor's supposed death wasn't a natural fixed point in time like Pompeii or Bowie Base One. Lake Silencio on April 22 2011 at 5:02 PM was already a still point in time (whatever the hell that means) which made it possible for the Silence to deliberately turn it into a fixed point. That means that before they created the fixed point it wasn't a fixed point and didn't necessarily have to be fulfilled. Besides, if they couldn't even tell the difference between the Doctor and the Teselecta, how would they have known that it was River in the space suit. I guess they piicked the location because it was a still point, and then decided that as long as they were on the beach it would be awesome to have an assassin come out from the water in a space suit. Of course, we still don't know why young Melody had to be in the space suit, or why she regenerated.Icecreamdif talk to me 21:50, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
