Talk:COVID-19

Proposed deletion / merger

This feels a little...I dunno a bit insensitive and not quite grounded enough in Doctor Who to have a dedicated page for it. Surely this should be covered on/merged with the 2020 (production) page, rather than a dedicated page itself. It's pretty out of sorts with every other page in the Category:Real world events. --Tangerineduel / talk 10:51, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Hard disagreement on that. It has already made a lot of impact on the Doctor Who universe as a whole. Definitely think it deserves a page for itself. A page named "Coronovirus" was previously created and deleted shortly afterwards at a point where there wasn't any real impact on the franchise, but I frankly think with all these shorts and webcasts that has been created due to COVID-19 and all the postpones of projects and Doctor Who material that has been used in the real world as a reference to the franchise, there is more than enough for the page to be covered in the first place. Also, how is it insensitive? It's not any more insensitive than covering Death, Murder, F*ck etc. --DCLM ☎ 11:11, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Disagreement seconded for the reasons above. Additionally, full coverage would be impossible on 2020 (production) because the virus has already affected releases in 2021 and 2022. --Borisashton ☎ 11:36, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Another disagreement here. The COVID-19 outbreak has impacted Doctor Who, and not just in regarding to all the things that have been postponed. The creation of shot stories; Doctor Who and the Time War / Revenge of the Nestene, were released as a direct result of the outbreak (Russel T. Davies was approached for new material to help entertain the masses during quarantine). Xx-connor-xX ☎ 12:16, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with User:Tangerineduel. This wiki is, as has been mentioned too many times to count, an encyclopedia, not a news service. We don't need a page dedicated to every current event that affects the production of the show. As long as we have a link to wikipedia's superior page on the topic, then all this needs is a mention on the production page and maybe the series page. And if the virus hasn't been explicitly mentioned in a story, it doesn't (yet) get an in-universe page. Shambala108 ☎ 12:41, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 was the basis for Jodie's recent webcast. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 12:43, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Yet another disagree, Shambala108. Sorry to say. --DCLM ☎ 12:45, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the proposed deletion, since there have been both multiple production delays caused by the outbreak, and multiple stories released in response, and it’s worthwhile to have a page on it in the same way I’d hope we have pages for significant writers strikes that affected the show.

However, I quite strongly believe that the “Noted similarities with events in the DWU”, while originally intended well, is in particularly poor taste and should be removed or at the very least trimmed down to media mentions rather than social media stuff. COVID is a worldwide plague that is set to kill millions and destroy countless more livelihoods, and everything we add should be done with that kept in mind, so a single Twitter meme that connects to Doctor Who probably shouldn’t deserve a mention. This article is already catching some minor flack on social media, and it’s only going to get worse as the death rate of COVID climbs. – N8 (☎/👁️) 13:32, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Because one idiot (sorry, but it needs saying) gets their knickers in a twist over a page on this Wikia, it should affect how we do things here? And as you can see, not much attention is given to that particular person. I believe everything connected to Doctor Who has a fair shot at being on this Wikia (talking everything in general) (as long as it's a respectable organisation/news source and not just a random fan, of course). --DCLM ☎ 13:46, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Dude, no need for personal attacks, especially since it’s far from just one ‘idiot’, and this wiki factually is seen as a joke throughout most of the online fandom. That’s not an attack on any of the users of this wiki, even the admins, I’m not even saying how deserved that is, I’m simply stating the observable truth that our wiki is very largely considered an absolute farce that’s constantly getting bogged down with pointless minutiae.217.42.180.119^{talk to me} 14:43, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't call Sam Maleski an "idiot", lol. And the Tweet he quoted has 125 likes, which means there's a lot more than one person upset – and for the reasons I've given, that number is very likely to grow. Regardless, that tweet was not the motivation or reasoning behind my dissent, just a tangential piece of supporting evidence. – N8 (☎/👁️) 13:57, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Nate on this one. Since the addition of the Similarities section there has been much more developments that have actually affected production of Doctor Who media and the Timeline now has enough information to stand on its own. The similarities could be mentioned on the specific pages with links to this article where appropriate, such as with Praxeus (TV story)#Story notes but they don't need to be prominent here. And Danniesen, although it might not be our prime concern the reputation of the wiki does matter and this will impact how we are percieved and/or the amount of visitors to the site if we handle this poorly. Let's not repeat the situation we had a while back regarding the accusations of transphobia. --Borisashton ☎ 14:00, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Hey, you were the one who created this page in the first place. I'm just supporting its placement. And Nate, while that is true, I used the word vaguely similar to "some random dude on social media", also someone else actually retorted that its nothing but simple bitterness, nothing to actually get upset about. --DCLM ☎ 14:10, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Let me also remind you all that while our reputation as a Wikia does matter, we also now and then has vandalists here who consistently write nasty stuff about Jodie, Thirteen, Chibnall, Series 11, Series 12 and so forth. And if we conform to that kind of irrational behavior because they don't like what our restaurant serves (in this specific case, about this page itself), we can just as well say that writing a great full-out informative Wikia is no longer worth it. --DCLM ☎ 14:16, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Another element to take into account with a potential deletion is that look, realistically, we're going to have to recreate it eventually as an in-universe page. The COVID-19 pandemic is a global phenomenon which will no doubt go down in history in the real world, and as such, it would be ludicrous to suppose it won't ever be referenced in the DWU in licenced work.

So since we're going to have a page about "COVID-19" page in the long run anyway, I feel it would be in poorer taste to have that page be completely in-universe, than to have a well-stocked and well-worded "Behind the scenes" section containing the material that currently makes up the bulk of the page. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 14:20, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Vandals saying derogatory things about cast or crew members does not in any way comes close to equating to genuine concerns for our potentially insensitive coverage of a global virus that has already killed thousands. Yes, I did create the page back when there was only a little news regarding the affect on Who and I am also saying that the Similarities section is no longer needed to bulk-out the page because there is so much more info worth covering. Since then, Big Finish Productions and Reeltime Pictures have both announced delays to their Who content and more than a couple original short stories and webcasts have been specially produced.

To keep it short, I no longer want to know that Praxeus had similarities to the virus on this page in contrast to the vast amount of actual action taken by the companies producing Who in response to it. A note on the story page and a link pointing here is quite sufficient and that connection is one of the most note-worthy things in the section. --Borisashton ☎ 14:30, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you Borisashton. – N8 (☎/👁️) 14:34, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

Admin note: when an unregistered user has to point out someone else's violation of Tardis:No personal attacks, then someone has clearly crossed the line. I don't know or care who User:Danniesen was referring to, but he's been blocked for calling someone an "idiot". Shambala108 ☎ 14:55, March 27, 2020 (UTC)

The inclusion of the sad passing of Sophia Myles' father in particular strikes me as insensitive. Doctor Who may have been referenced by news outlets to explain how she is a public figure, but placing this alongside comparatively trivial production changes is incredibly callous and comes off as reducing the death of a real man to the fact his daughter was once in Doctor Who. The impact on production is relevant to specific releases and the positive and encouraging response from those involved with Doctor Who has been a comfort, but it's not right for this wiki to cover something with such a severe and ongoing human cost more like it's a wrench in DW's production. Human lives are much more important. (And if/when it is directly referenced in the DWU much more care should be taken.) Toqgers ☎ 01:55, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. As per SOTO's earlier removal of the section focusing on Who connections that did not relate to production I have removed that paragraph. --Borisashton ☎ 02:08, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

I second this latest removal. As for my own stance on deletion, I'm as of yet undecided. Certainly, no matter what, 2020 (production) should contain all this information. If we migrate all the info to that page, and continue updating there, it also shouldn't be too muc trouble to bring it back to a BTS section here if COVID-19 is referenced in a work that passes T:VALID.

Collecting together all the DWU works being put out, expressions of genuine care and solidarity, does seem generally good. But I'm definitely sympathetic to the view that such an article, categorised under "Real world events", trivialises a serious pandemic as though it's only something causing delays in DWU production, painting an inconvenience when the real ramifications, far off from this privileged perspective, are well beyond our scope.
× SOTO (☎/✍/↯) 04:28, March 28, 2020 (UTC)

Having considered all the comments above, and given several weeks for any further comment, I'm ruling that, for now, this page will be deleted after, as User:SOTO suggests in the post directly above this, any pertinent DWU info gets migrated to 2020 (production). Once that occurs, this page will be deleted and would only be re-added if/when it occurs in-universe. Shambala108 ☎ 01:08, April 22, 2020 (UTC)

Behind the scenes

Given the recreation of the page due to in-universe references, is it safe to assume that we can re-add the behind the scenes content now without being in violation of the prior ruling? Najawin ☎ 10:38, July 26, 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to tentatively say yes. But don't overdo it. The main problem, as voiced by User:SOTO in the second-to-last post of the earlier discussion, was that "such an article, categorised under Real world events, trivialises a serious pandemic as though it's only something causing delays in DWU production". This won't be the case in the new state of things even if we do have a BTS section describing its incidence on Doctor Who production.

And, sad to say, it does not look as though the disturbances will be limited to 2020. Even if the virus died down overnight today, I'm sure we would continue to see its effects on society at large (and, consequently, among other things, on the production of DWU media) well into early 2021. This was an element that none of us dared ponder back in March and April, but now it's hard to deny.

As mentioned before, though, this BTS section is to be limited to hard facts. Coincidental "echoes" like Praxeus and other such potentially-disrespectful pontifications shouldn't be touched with a ten-foot pole. --Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 16:59, November 3, 2020 (UTC)

Sources suggesting "there was no pandemic"

I've deleted that paragraph for the time being because I feel it borders too much on conflicting real world and in-universe facts. WaltK ☎ 19:09, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

The paragraph you refer to —

However, other accounts seemed to suggest that there was no pandemic and that life was going on normally. (AUDIO: Stranded 2, TV: Revolution of the Daleks, et al.)

— was indeed badly-worded, in no small part because it cited a box-set as if it were a story. But I do think the point is worth highlighting. The Best of Days, and probably other valid sources, already tell us that wearing masks became a norm in the DWU also; highlighting that people aren't wearing'em in some stories is a completely valid point to make, without even ruffling a hair on T:NO RW's head. It's just a matter of phrasing it better than the deleted paragraph. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:15, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Something we need to remember when making this claim is DWU history =/= real world history. The paragraph in question cited the 2021-set Revolution of the Daleks as being an example of this contradiction. Obviously seeing nobody wearing masks or social distancing in that episode is odd for us in the real world but, in the DWU, the last dated recording of the pandemic being a thing was "late 2020". For all we know, in the DWU the pandemic may have already ended by the new year, or at least became manageable to the point that mask wearing and social distancing were no longer necessary.

I say look through every existing story set in 2020. If you find any that are explicitly dated to anywhere from March to "late" in the year, that don't reference the pandemic, then there's your source. WaltK ☎ 19:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, quite right! Very well-put. Scrooge MacDuck ☎ 19:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

"Wider universe"

Could somebody provide some clarification as to how exactly the info in that section relates to COVID? WaltK ☎ 22:40, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Considering when the story was released, the tourism line does appear to allude to COVID, though I agree the in-universe connection isn't there. It's possibly something to move to the BTS section or otherwise completely remove. Borisashton ☎ 22:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I vote the latter. WaltK ☎ 23:55, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

The Vanquishers' "Hands, Face, Space" poster

As I brought up in the talk for the episode itself, I've begun to question whether this qualifies as something to be mentioned here on the grounds that you can barely even see the poster in the episode itself: it appears in a shot of a Liverpool shopping center during the "Sontarans have taken over Liverpool" montage, but I really had to squint to see it, and didn't even spot it at all at first. WaltK ☎ 21:40, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

If it's in the episode, it's in the episode. The question is whether it is actually legible, albeit for just a handful of frames; but if it is, that's the end of it. Scrooge MacDuck ⊕ 21:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC)