Talk:Grace O'Brien

Companion status

Grace should be considered a single-adventure - similar to Astrid Peth and Lady Christina, shouldn't she? Xx-connor-xX ☎ 21:02, October 7, 2018 (UTC)

Astrid and Christina are both counted as Tenth Doctor companions in this Wiki, so I think Grace should be counted as a 13th Doctor companion. I noticed a mod changed this though so I haven't changed it back. Danochy ☎ 10:00, October 8, 2018 (UTC)

Agree too. We should count her as a single-adventure companion. Lady Junky 20:50, October 10, 2018 (UTC)

Everyone seems to be in agreement here, and nobody who has any strong reasons against her being listed as a companion has come forward - so I guess the edits should be made? I have no clue as to why she was removed from the category anyway, I added her as soon as the episode aired as she was very blatantly a single-adventure companion. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 03:03, October 14, 2018 (UTC)

Grace still has the companion template, but isn't listed as a companion on it - yet there's several references to her being a companion on this page / Graham's page. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 15:49, April 1, 2020 (UTC)

O'Brien?

Does the story actually tell us she's taken her second husband's surname? Does O'Brien come from within the narrative?
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   11:52, October 8, 2018 (UTC)

I can’t exactly remember, but she’s definitely been marketed as Grace O’Brien at least. So I wouldn’t think it necessary to rename this page: Grace (TWWFTE), until they say her surname out loud in another episode if they haven’t done so already, because we already know it really. Ben Moore512 ☎ 06:55, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

No. Marketing is not a valid in-universe source.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   17:31, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

I'm gonna go as far as to say that this is assumption based on her being Graham's wife and his last name being O'Brien, therefore the natural assumption that her last name would be O'Brien as well. --DCLM ☎ 18:16, October 9, 2018 (UTC)

It's not stated in Universe what her surname is, or that she took Graham's surname. On top of that, plenty of women don't take their husband's surname, so there is no reason this should be assumed to be the case here. Danochy ☎ 08:55, October 13, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not stating that it's said anywhere, or indeed is the case. Just stating that it may have been assumption. And that IS a natural assumption after all. Let's not pretend that it isn't. 😉 --DCLM ☎ 09:20, October 13, 2018 (UTC)

No, it absolutely isn't. She was a professional woman who made a carrier working at a hospital. For her to go to all the trouble of doing the paperwork and changing the name to something other than what her colleagues got used to over potentially decades, so that her former patients would not be able to find her because they do not know her new name? And all of that for a second marriage? None of the professional women I know would do that. But naturalness aside, we should not base page names on the naturalness or unnaturalness of assumptions. We should not base them on assumptions, period. I agree that moving the page now would be premature because there is a real possibility that in-universe info would be revealed (e.g., a gravestone), but barring that, the move will have to be made eventually. Amorkuz ☎ 22:55, October 13, 2018 (UTC)

You make it sound like it is a lot of paperwork and effort, it really isn’t - hence why the majority of women do change their names. Anyway, I agree that we should wait till the end of the series at least as I’m sure her gravestone or a flashback will pop up at some point. Xx-connor-xX ☎ 03:09, October 14, 2018 (UTC)

"Grace O'Brien" is now confirmed by credits in Arachnids in the UK. Case closed.
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   21:19, October 28, 2018 (UTC)

It Takes You Away appearance

The credits in the episode It Takes You Away state Grace's actress, Sharon D Clarke, played Grace (not the solitract) in this episode. Since the credits are counted as a part of the episode (and verify character's names, counting as an official source we use here at TARDIS wiki) that means Grace canonically appears in this episode. Therefore, the episode counts as an official appearance for this character. Source: IMDB, – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Snivystorm (talk • contribs) .

First, I'd argue that credits are often made to mislead/hide plot points. In this case, it was to hide the Solitract's plans. Another example would be Billie Piper being credited as Rose in The Day of the Doctor. Other(s) are the several alias actors who played were credited under to hide appearances (aliases for both actors names and the characters names). Second, credits are not taken as part of the episode (they fail rule one for not being a story, much like publisher's summary). They are generally the exception of the rule when a name is on the credits but not the episode itself (like the Emojibots on Smile). Plus IMDB is not a valid source for any information anyway, so I'd argue the relevance of citing it. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:42, January 3, 2019 (UTC)

Another really good example (even if it's in audio rather than TV, shows the point quite well). The Black Hole credits Rufus Hound as "Constable Pavo" and Janet Dibley as "Commander Flail". If we were to take credits blindly, we'd be giving a great misinformation. In fact, Janet is the one who plays Pavo, with "Flail" being an alias. Hound, on the other hand, is neither Flail nor Pavo, but rather the Monk. The credits are not wrong, they simply are listed this way to hide plot points.

Much of the same principle applies here. The plot of It Takes You Away depends on Graham believing Grace was "alive" on the Solitract plane (the same goes for Erik and Trine). These two examples demonstrate that by no means credits are 100% reliable. Knowledge of the stories events are extremely important to differentiate the true information from the misdirection. OncomingStorm12th ☎ 23:58, January 3, 2019 (UTC)

Minor note on the credits. While I did cite IMDB as the source, the episode itself does so in the credits it possesses there; hence (when I said 'as part of the episode) I meant the ones in the actual episode rather than the external source. Snivy ✦ The coolest Pokemon ever ✦ 00:07, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

There is a similar case to the audio example above in AUDIO: Prisoner of the Ood. If you don't mind having the ending spoiled, hover over the links in the cast section, and you'll see that they're playing at a little bit of subterfuge. Credits are sometimes used for misdirection, or withhold information. And we certainly wouldn't say that Rose appears in Day, so I'm afraid this line of thinking might be a bit of a dead end. (And I rather think we hold more closely to credits as broadcast than IMDb do, so you could have just linked to our own page)
×   SOTO contribs ×°/↯/•]   💬•| {/-//:   00:28, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

Revisiting this because something kind-of similar happened with today's episode. During Can You Hear Me?, a "version" of Grace appears during a induced nightmare of Graham's. As always, I'm strongly reluctant on adding this as an appearance of Grace. Grace O'Brien wasn't a figment of Graham's grief, nor a consciousness/form of energy, or even an induced nightmare in Graham's head. She was his wife, and she died during her first appearance, The Woman Who Fell to Earth. – The preceding unsigned comment was added by OncomingStorm12th (talk • contribs) .

I'd like to raise a point here. I don't think "she was his wife" during this appearance. Graham obviously calls her by her name "Grace", however in response she doesn't talk to him in a way that indicates any more than a doctor/patient relationship. She further also refer to him as "Mr. O'Brien", and Graham said in Woman that before they got together she was his nurse in hospital. --DCLM ☎ 14:05, February 10, 2020 (UTC)

Of course she afterwards does say that he didn't save her. So that is a little confusing. --DCLM ☎ 14:07, February 10, 2020 (UTC)